2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale

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Rufus 7/24/2009 7:10:01 PM

Observe!

This is a "discrete" FRENCH dumpster.

This dumpster may not exhibit any features that one would associate with a stealth dumpster, however, if I claim that it is "discrete" and that it is covered in radar absorbing "paint," who could possibly argue with me?

There is saw tooth paneling on this dumpster's intakes!!!11one1

This dumpster could use Spectra and an IRST to sneak through the Moscow air defense ring undetected!

It could launch its silent attacks with IMPUNITY!

Quote Reply

Herald12345 YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE THAT. 7/24/2009 7:27:14 PM

You 're both wrong , on all accounts .

Since there is nothing I can do or post to show you the light , I will do without you .

Simple .

You will not be permitted to spread your falsehoods without challenge. If you choose to withdraw or be silent, that would be a great thing. You tend to pollute every aviation thread with your nonsense and make it impossible to enjoy a decent discussion about the F-22, the F-35, the Typhoon, or even such topics as why the 1%ers screwed up the fine transport plane the A-400M should have been with a wrong engine choice; or how AIRBUS is a criminally irresponsible enterprise that has much for which to answer for foisting its poorly designed and UNSAFE aircraft product line on the global civil aviation industry.

You think the truth I tell about Rafale and Dassault is BAD. Try French civil aviation.

Defective flight software.

Engineering safety factors that are marginal to almost unsafe in a desperate search yo reduce weught for fuel economy because the bungling AIRBUS aerodynamacists couldn't design an aeroshell, with sufficient slip to compete with Boeing otherwise..

Wrong pilot assist programs using a software approach that causes the planes to go into an uncontrolled departure from flight when the computer overrides corrective pilot flight imputs. Avionics especially external flight parameter measuring sensors systems that are absolute CRAP.

Example.

Want me to open that whole can of worms on you?

Quote Reply

Herald12345 YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE THAT. 7/24/2009 7:27:54 PM

You 're both wrong , on all accounts .

Since there is nothing I can do or post to show you the light , I will do without you .

Simple .

You think the truth I tell about Rafale and Dassault is BAD. Try French civil aviation.

Defective flight software.

Example.

Want me to open that whole can of worms on you?

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 7/24/2009 7:29:50 PM

I have already posted all the available reports on RedFlag 2008 and I can repost them again if needed .

The Dassault Rafale was THE aircraft who impressed most . As I said , within the fixed rules it suffered no losses (the only fighter to do so) and was able to (I repeat) :

"" penetrate unnoticed deep into heavily EM territory and fire its AASMs with total inpunity and come back to base (while recording every EM emissions around for later purposes) ."

""According to Dassault, no shootdowns were scored against the Rafale during the 10-day exercise, and American observers were particularly impressed with the accuracy of the fighter?s Sagem AASM ?smart? bombs and Spectra system.""

The USAF even nicknamed the AASM the "magic weapon" :

""The accuracy of sensors and armaments Rafale has truly marked minds. It is equipped with the AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modular) developed and produced by Sagem (Group Safran), nicknamed "Magic Weapons" by the Americans.""

h*tp://www.safran-group.com/IMG/pdf/mag5_28-29.pdf

We also all remember the fact that the Rafale has been bashed by some of the USAF officials because of its spying capabilities , no need to come back on it .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Herald12345 MORE LIES. 7/24/2009 7:49:43 PM

I have already posted all the available reports on RedFlag 2008 and I can repost them again if needed .

The Dassault Rafale was THE aircraft who impressed most . As I said , within the fixed rules it suffered no losses (the only fighter to do so) and was able to (I repeat) :

"" penetrate unnoticed deep into heavily EM territory and fire its AASMs with total inpunity and come back to base (while recording every EM emissions around for later purposes) ."

The USAF even nicknamed the AASM the "magic weapon" :

h*tp://www.safran-group.com/IMG/pdf/mag5_28-29.pdf

We also all remember the fact that the Rafale has been bashed by some of the USAF officials because of its spying capabilities , no need to come back on it .

Cheers .

Here is the truth, coutesy of PHAID:

The Rafale's First Red Flag

Subject: The Rafale's First Red Flag
Phaid 9/3/2008 5:22:21 PM

This is my translation of a new article from TTU Online:
hxxp://www.ttu.fr/francais/Articles/rafaleredflag.html

The Rafale's First Red Flag

For the armée de l'air, two years after its official entry into service at Saint Dizier, the summer of 2008 was the first opportunity to fully test the Rafale in the context of a large-scale war gaming exercise in the Nevada desert, which came at the conclusion of a long journey journey across the American continent following a crossing of the Atlantic via the Azores.

Planned for a year and a half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces for tactical interoperability. The armée de l'air has taken part in Red Flag on a regular basis since 1981, and nearly all of its combat aircraft types have participated. This time, it was the Rafale's turn, as a prelude to the participation of the Mirage F1CT/CR this fall in Green Flag -- a CAS exercise smaller in scale than Red Flag but which prepares forces for missions currently being undertaken in Afghanistan.

And so, from the 7th to the 22nd August, a detachment of four Rafales from the fighter squadron 1/7 "Provence", based in Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a C-135FR tanker, spent ten days taking part in the fourth Red Flag of 2008, certainly the most demanding -- the closest thing to real war, they say -- for a Western pilot.

The detachment of 85 personnel, under the command of colonel Philippe Poireault, the team's leader, and of the lieutenant colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the 1/7, consisted in all of fourteen pilotes, six navigators, an intelligence officer, and 39 mechanics. The detachment consisted of two teams; one for missions during the day and one for missions at night. The roster was rounded out by air commandos responsible for the security of the aircraft.

Taking place immediately following a 10-day base exchange at Luke Air Force Base with F-16s and personnel of the USAF's 309th TFS, the goal of the Rafale's first Red Flag was to compare the Rafale, which the squadron has been flying for two years, with combat aircraft of the same generation (called the 4th generation): F-15Es of the USAFE, F-15Ks of the RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Aggressors, and Su-30MKIs of the IAF. It should be noted that half of the French participants had participated in the Afghan theater in recent months.

The four Rafale from the 1/7 (numbers 317, 320, 321, and 325) were all two-seaters, of the F2+ standard (and thus very recent), with a total "swing role" capability and whose simulated armament was composed of Mica IR/EM AAMs and rocket-propelled inertially guided AASM/GPS weapons. The missions were supported by the SLPRM (the SAGEM local mission planning and replay system, a mission-planning computer system).

During the ten days of Red Flag, the Rafale Bs undertook a total of four sorties per day, each averaging two hours (1 day strike and 1 night strike), as part of a Blue Air strike package consisting in general of fifty to sixty aircraft. This took place in outside temperatures above 45°C, nearly identical to conditions in Kandahar, Afghanistan. These temperatures were in fact more taxing on the crews and maintainers than on the aircraft; the M88's power reserve at takeoff assuring comfortable levels of thrust at the beginnings of the missions. The aircraft were normally equipped with three large supersonic external tanks of 1200 liters to mimic a heavy war load.

The primary preoccupation of the armée de l'air in coming to Nellis AFB with the Rafale was first to verify the proper integration of the aircraft and its systems in a dense and complex environment of allied aircraft, notably with the participation of EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft and F-16CJs performing SEAD.

General Jean-Pierre Martin, commander of the combat air forces, who even participated in one of the last Rafale B missions over the Nellis range (which is as large as the territory of Switzerland!) during the August Red Flag, commented: "After a year and a half of preparation, the system is in operational service and has been utilised in operatiosn which demonstrates that the capabilities of the aircraft are at the desired level. The Rafale behaved itself very well and fulfilled its part of the missions, and even did so easily thanks to the combination of its sensors and its networking systems (link 16). We can say that, for the first time, in contrast to previous exercises involving Jaguars or Mirage F1s or 2000, the French flew at Red Flag on an aircraft of comparable generation which had nothing to envy those of its American, Korean, and Indian comrades." Also taking into account the mission profiles undertaken in a theater saturated with surface-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also very well demonstrated its capacity to penetrate enemy air defenses thanks to its very capable weapon system to which the new AASM bomb is not a stranger. In fact, if the different participants were not particularly impressed (emphasis MINE, Herald) with the "swing role" capacity of the Rafale -- the Su-30MKI, the F-15E Strike Eagle and F-15K Slam Eagle already have it -- it is undeniably the precision of the Rafale's sensors and its standoff air-to-ground armament which impressed the gallery.(The Press-again emphasis MINE) "On the Rafale, sensor fusion is an extraordinary concept and very successfully implemented. There were never any disagreements between the different sensors", added the commander of the 1/7. The Rafale was present in all of the major missions, and notably participated as "mission commander" for two missions. In the course of "self escort" and "organic escort" missions, the Rafale/F2+ was able to present the full complement of its aerial capabilities of this new aircraft.

Asked about the state of logistics of the Rafale, lt. colonel Grandclaudon remarked that his squadron's logistics are linked via network with the BA113 at St.Dizier (thanks to the Arpagon system which transmits diagnostic information from each aircraft after each mission). This permitted improved tracking of individual aircraft spare parts during the entire Red Flag exercise. Henceforth, maintenance will be curative rather than preventative, consisting of maintenance in real time: only those parts in need of replacement will be changed, which is more economical and allows units to deploy with lighter stocks of spares.

It remains that the French pilots are still waiting for the Damocles laser-designator pods, which should be delivered next year if all goes well, and that many of them wish to one day obtain a helmet-mounted sight like those that the Americans and Indians -- equipment originally intended for the Rafale but which was abandoned for economic reasons. The Link-16 is much appreciated, as is the Spectra which has proven itself a very rich detection system functioning in complement with the RBE2 radar. The OSF, for its part, was unanimously praised by pilots for its great usefulness in aerial combat. "It's a sensor we will no longer be able to do without in the future", remarked one captain, "because it gives us such a discreet advantage over the adversary".

The Americans, during the "mass debriefs", lauded the precision of the AASM. Each Rafale can today engage six targets at a time over an extended area, each 250kg bomb having its own ballistics and target coordinates. Moreover, with Link-16, a Rafale can transmit its targeting coordinates with another aircraft better placed to engage the target. Thus, if an aircraft does not reach its target, another can take over and complete the engagement. This is a new weapon which stands to give the Rafale a real asset on the international scene.

A second Rafale squadron, attack squadron 1/91 "Gascogne", should be operational at Saint-Dizier before the end of next year. It will in due course be charged with the nuclear dissuasion mission, operating the ASMP nuclear cruise missile with its Rafale F3 beginning in 2010.

As described-a pedestrian bomb truck. in the class of an F-16/F-15 striker, and not even as good. (No HMS for example.). .

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 7/24/2009 8:32:39 PM

I see that you prefer (again) to shoot at the messenger rather than discuss interesting points like sensor fusion and how 4.5 and 5th gen aircraft have the edge .

Of course , that means that you would have to search and find good material to bring forward . You can !

Let 's forget the trolls and come back to this :

This drawing is telling us much about how things are done . The F-22 and the F-35 systems work the same way , more or less . The Typhoon and Gripen are a notch under . Myself , I believe the Gripen to have a small edge over the Typhoon in sensor fusion but that 's me .

Of course , for this kind of stuff to work , you need all the devices along the chain to work with each other . Then you need different computers to digest the huge amount of infos and present to the different systems and to the pilot a clear picture on what is going on around the aircraft . Then , you need to have some highly automated functions like the Autopilot (which has to be linked to the ECM/ECCM suite) , the FCS , etc , to allow the aircraft or/and the Pilot to take the appropriate mesures to avoid the threat , escape the threat or engage the threat . It is a big business ...

Rafale is very good at it . The "discrete" sticker is not only about passive stealth , far from it . The Rafale is not stealthy enough to do what it does without a powerfull sensor and ECM suite . Simple .

In this regard , it is more advanced than any other European air platform .

What is important is to bring the aircraft and the crew back , it is sometimes more important than to destroy the target . We sometimes abort ...

The Rafale is a very good "survival" , don 't make mistake .

Some are dismissing or downgrading the US detection capabilities when they bash the Rafale 's capabilities during RedFlag 2008 . The airspace area is a big as Switzerland (which is rather small regarding radar range) but the Rafale was able to do exactly what I said without any losses and half of the landscape at RedFlag is not the Alps !

In the Alps , a Rafale is almost undetectable !

What I find beautifull on the Rafale is that the Pilot and/or the autopilot can do what they want within a 200km bubble because they know what is going on inside the bubble . This is very important when you have to fly deep into enemy territory , too far to stay under the AWACs umbrella .

A F-22 , a F-35 could also go alone deep inside enemy territory but a SU-30 , a SH , a F-16 Blk42 , a Strike-Eagle surely couln 't . A Gripen could use a similar flight plan than the Rafale (low and fast) but without the EM awareness , the Typhoon is still an unknown quantity .

The Rafale is not a pedestrian bomb truck ...

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 7/24/2009 8:38:49 PM

Herald , repost the entire stuff without your useless quotes and let 's see which way it is going , lol !

The fact is that the Rafale (as I keep saying) impressed the gallery .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 7/24/2009 8:49:06 PM

Read my lips Herald then put a finger up your *** :

The actual Rafale F3 beats hands down any F-teen in A2A and A2G .

In fact , there is nothing the USA can field right now with the capabilities of Rafale .

The F-22 is and still an interceptor and the F-35 a problem child prototype .

I know you don 't like it , but I , I do . lol !

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Herald12345 It tells me just how far behind the French actually are avionics wise if this us the crap planform they use.. 7/24/2009 9:01:43 PM

I see that you prefer (again) to shoot at the messenger rather than discuss interesting points like sensor fusion and how 4.5 and 5th gen aircraft have the edge .

By quoting a French pilot general to prove that you are a liar?

Of course , that means that you would have to search and find good material to bring forward . You can !

I usually do but its a waste of time because its way over your head.

Let 's forget the truth and come back to this :

Primitive-unbelievably primitive diagram.

It also tells you nothing about how things are done. At best its a simplified display menu tree for a Rafale fighter, and a badly designed one.

Gibberish. And in fact you don't link the autopilot to the ECM/ECCM suit. The autpilot belongs to the navigation tree of systems you incompetent. You can't even read your own simplified diagram?.

Lie. It has to use low level flight tactics and a lot of electronic help not to be blasted out of the sky.

In this regard , it is more advanced than any other European air platform .

Not proven by you and disproved by me; so we can consider this statement to be a lie.

What is important is to bring the aircraft and the crew back , it is sometimes more important than to destroy the target . We sometimes abort ...

That is cowardice in war: we don't sortie aircraft unless the cost is worth it.

The Rafale is a very good "survival" , don 't make mistake .

Not proven in combat or exercise as the AdA officer admitted. Lets call this a bald assertion-i.e. a lie.

Not proven. and an assertion. By the citation I provided where it was tracked by friendlies all the way in, it is also a bald faced lie.

In the Alps , a Rafale is almost undetectable !

That's a lie.

What I find beautiful on the Rafale is that the Pilot and/or the autopilot can do what they want within a 200km bubble because they know what is going on inside the bubble . This is very important when you have to fly deep into enemy territory , too far to stay under the AWACs umbrella .

That's a lie.

The Rafale is ~~not~~ a pedestrian bomb truck ...

Truth.

GTHWMCYGDLY.

How many lies in that last post? Eight?

Herald

Quote Reply

gf0012-aust 7/24/2009 9:11:45 PM

The F-22 is and still an interceptor and the F-35 a problem child prototype .

and you woner why people regard you as a troll. you've demonstrated no awareness of the conditions of LO management - you've demonstrated no awareness that a 4th gen platform with external carriage is immediately dirty, you've demonstrated no awareness of the conditions of DACT (red team, blue team, co-operative engagement, spawning as the event progresses for red team, that the Rafale enter the fight with the assist of other aircraft running CAP and clearing the alley before strike etc...., you talk about Rafale having systems discretion when a loaded Rafale is as dirty as a B24 Liberator in profile. (that refueling probe makes it stand out like a nun in a nudist colony). Thats even before you look at the signal trap that exists between the fuselage and the inlets! I've had to painstakingly point out again and again the issue of how nonconforming body parts will impact on signature return (and this is 3 times over the last 4 years - to which you've only now only just admitted that "you did your research" and accept what has been commonly known (publicly) since 1989. One look at a Rafale dirty (sans weapons) screams "reflection" and yet "con" weapons its even worse - and yet you claim a discretionary management footprint. Thats just plain unmitigated rubbish

You've demonstrated no awareness that the S bend inlet on the Rafale is not just about trying to mask signals, but its also about an engine management issue, and finally, when someone tries to point out the obvious radar spike between the fuselage and the inlet (thus making the radar managemnt issue of an S bend almost negligible) -you still persist on making idiotic comments.

you've demonstrated no comprehension about JSF, you've parroted the idiotic comments from APA as proof of life and you've obviosly no understanding of what SPECTRA does (and you've generated fairy stories about signals management, as a defacto LO utility capability of Rafale).

You need to pull your head in - your fan boy adulation and internet triumphalism just serve to reinforce that you're screen scraping in the vain hope of being a one man fan club and maintaining "gloire"...

posting pictures when you don't understand fundamentals doesn't impress anyone except teenagers and jpg collectors of trivia.

Quote Reply

Herald12345 It tells me just how far behind the French actually are avionics wise if this us the crap planform they use.. 7/24/2009 9:12:16 PM

Read my lips Herald then put a finger up your *** :

Got you at last..

The actual Rafale F3 beats hands down any F-teen in A2A and A2G .

Lie.

In fact , there is nothing the USA can field right now with the capabilities of Rafale .

Superhornet waxed them. so that's a lie.

The F-22 is and still an interceptor and the F-35 a problem child prototype .
F-35 exceeds program objectives. That's a lie.

I know you don 't like it , but I , I do . lol !
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. The truth truimps a lie and a prevaricator all the time.

GTH.

Is it about time for SYSOPS to look at this one to see if he qualifies for discipline? I ask the question as he is definitely out of honesty bounds, here with his falsehoods as well as his lack of good discretion and LEGAL comity .

Highlighted the offensive bit in GREEN

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Bluewings12 7/24/2009 9:24:10 PM

I knew that my adversaries would be weak , but not that much . Again it is bla-bla coming from the USA and Oz .

You are not proving anything but just spreading your wrong opinions . You do the talk but where is the walk ?

Links ? Papers ? Studies ? Pictures ?

Do what I do : discuss the facts with proved knowledge and stop trolling .

But you got nothing ...

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 7/24/2009 9:54:27 PM

Some clowns said that the Rafale 's refuelling probe was not RAM coated , they should check what BW is saying before to talk BS :

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Basilisk Station 7/24/2009 10:17:38 PM

Some clowns said that the Rafale 's refuelling probe was not RAM coated , they should check what BW is saying before to talk BS :

Cheers .

You know that Cheers bit just makes you come across as smug and arrogant. Of course that could be the point.

So explain this to me then. If the F-22's coatings are having trouble with rain, then how does the ram coating on the Raf's refueling probe deal with something like JP5? Quite a number of solvents are based on hydrocarbons like you find in fuel.

As far as the Rafale's external stores goes, Don't you think the US wouldn't have gone with internal bays on the F-117, B-2, F-22 and F-35 (IE. EVERY true stealth aircraft) without a very good reason?

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 7/24/2009 10:20:52 PM

I can keep doing this all day long . I walk the talk .

Now , you tell me what the RCS of this is from the front (I know so be clever) :

Cheers .

Quote Reply

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