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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-)

The F-22
h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I

The Rafale :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news

Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow .

Cheers .
 
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Basilisk Station       7/23/2009 9:51:59 PM
 

 

What kind of lunatic ever thought something like this was going to be "discrete" to radar?

Oh, that's right. Never mind. 

Did anyone ever point out that the Rafale's display was professionally filmed and thus probably shot for marketing purposes, while the F-22 video was of a practice flight? 
 
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Rufus       7/24/2009 2:09:41 AM
"What kind of lunatic ever thought something like this was going to be "discrete" to radar?"
 
That refueling probe alone probably has a bigger RCS than an F-35... and that says nothing about the rest of the plane and its weapons.
 
 
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Reactive       7/24/2009 11:47:55 AM
Word.
 
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Herald12345    Among the many mistakes......    7/24/2009 12:49:36 PM
that the Dassault engineers made when they designed the Squall in the 1970s was to design it as a low level penetration aircraft. They reasoned that the most important aspect to mask against Russian look down radars was the TOP/FRONT and this was how and where they designed their RCS masking strategies; including the chines covering the jet engine intakes, considering that curvature of the Earth and high speed was sufficient defense against low altitude Russian IADS systems otherwise. WRONG solution. The Russian look down radars turned out to be far better than the 1%ers ever dreamed. Also it turned out that Russian point defense and local defense SAMs (and GUNS) with their IRSTS and optical trackers were far better than the French engineers ever envisioned, too.

Hence the USAF tactical exploit of the altitude coverage gap between guns and missiles and the ALL ASPECT, ALL SPECTRUM  emphasis on aeroshell signal management.
 
Herald
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 1:17:05 PM
It 's getting tiring Herald .
 
""This liaison aircraft missile is carried by small antennas in the rear of the missile. Extremely protected against electronic jamming , it is almost undetectable .""
h*tp://frenchnavy.free.fr/weapons/mica/mica_fr.htm
 
""The missile receives its information through a small antenna on the rear of the missile.""
h*tp://jepenseakoi.skyrock.com/

Then , if the link was bad or the antennas badly placed , how would the VL Mica be so good ? And the Aster ?
The VL (Vertical Launched) Mica really shows that the hardware is working as expected , because it can be fired anywhere on a 360deg bubble . The receiver has to be well placed to receive the mid-link updates every 500 milliseconds , don 't you think ?
 
h*tp://www.army-technology.com/projects/vlmica/
 
Stop bashing the Mica , it is an excellent design .
********************
Basilisk :
""What kind of lunatic ever thought something like this was going to be "discrete" to radar?""
 
It is better to have some "discrete" features on the airframe and pylons than nothing . Nobody ever said that the Rafale was "Discrete" in every configuration , not even me . But there is something I can tell you , in these two possible configurations , the Rafale still have a RCS 3 times lower than a M2000B or D (10 times less when loaded A2A) .
To put things straight , use a SU-27 , a Mig-35 , a F-16 Blk42 , a Strike Eagle or a SH with the same load and the Rafale will still have the lowest RCS . Then , there is the Spectra suite to protect the Fighter .
 
 
 
Rufus :
""That refueling probe alone probably has a bigger RCS than an F-35""
 
That refueling probe is RAM coated .
 
""and that says nothing about the rest of the plane and its weapons.""
 
When in Deep Strike configuration , most things under the wings are RAM coated or low RCS , exemple :
 
 
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 1:41:09 PM
Herald :
""the Dassault engineers made when they designed the Squall in the 1970s was to design it as a low level penetration aircraft. They reasoned that the most important aspect to mask against Russian look down radars was the TOP/FRONT and this was how and where they designed their RCS masking strategies; including the chines covering the jet engine intakes, considering that curvature of the Earth and high speed was sufficient defense against low altitude Russian IADS systems otherwise""
 
This is mostly correct , only one fact is missing : ECMs and ECCMs .
 
""WRONG solution""
 
We don 't think so .
 
""The Russian look down radars turned out to be far better than the 1%ers ever dreamed.""
 
We can take care of Russian look-down radars , the problem is elsewhere . 
 
""Russian point defense and local defense SAMs (and GUNS) with their IRSTS and optical trackers were far better than the French engineers ever envisioned, too.""
 
They are not better than expected , they are AS expected . Indeed , these systems are harder to fool and to deal with than EM threats . In this regard France is in the same league than pretty much everybody else . The IRICM (Infra Red Integrated Counter Mesure) is working but not integrated yet on any operational Fighter . We expect it on the standard Rafale F4 (2013-2015) .
 
Cheers .

 
 
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Herald12345       7/24/2009 1:46:08 PM


It 's getting tiring Herald .

Yes it is, prevaricator.

""This liaison aircraft missile is carried by small antennas in the rear of the missile. Extremely protected against electronic jamming , it is almost undetectable .""

h*tp://frenchnavy.free.fr/weapons/mica/mica_fr.htm


""The missile receives its information through a small antenna on the rear of the missile.""

h*tp://jepenseakoi.skyrock.com/

Complete quote;
 
MICA missile: 2 modes: refresh (long gate range) and autonomous (short of replacing worn MAGIC). Portée : 50 à 60 km. Range: 50 to 60 km (that's lie). Sous les ailes, le MICA glisse le long d'un rail quand il est tiré. Under the wings, the MICA slides along a rail when it is drawn. Sous le fuselage, le pylône éjecte le missile via un patin actionné par un vérin développant plus de 3 t de poussée et faisant subir au missile une accélération de 30 g vers le bas pour dégager celui-ci de dessous l'avion. Under the fuselage, pylon ejects the missile from a pad actuated by a cylinder of more than 3 tons of thrust and subjecting missile acceleration of 30 g down to drop it from underneath the aircraft. Le vérin est actionné par une bouteille d'azote à 350 bars. The cylinder is actuated by a cylinder of nitrogen to 350 bars. Le rafraîchissement du missile est effectué toutes les 500 ms. update  of the missile is made every 500 ms (1/2 second-that is a SLOW telemnetry refresh rate).
Vitesse : Mach 2,5 au dessus de la vitesse de l'avion tireur (soit jusqu'à Mach 4). Speed: Mach 2.5 above the speed of the airplane shooter (up to Mach 4- (again that is SLOW). Cette vitesse est obtenue par "impulsion" du système propulseur. This speed is achieved by "pulse" of propellant. Celui-ci fonctionne pendant 2 sec (6 sec pour le S530 fait pour les grands dénivelés d'altitude). This works for 2 sec (6 sec for the S530 is the major drop in altitude). La fusée de proximité se déclenche jusqu'à 15 m de l'hostile. The rocket is fired close to 15 m from the hostile as minimum range.
Masse : 112 kg (95 kg pour le MAGIC et 148 kg pour l'AMRAAM). Mass: 112 kg (95 kg for MAGIC and 148 kg for the AMRAAM). L'antenne située sous le brouilleur de bord d'attaque de la dérive sert au suivit du MICA. The antenna counter- jammier and tracker updater at the edge of the tail is used to follow the MICA.(that's the fairing bulge in front of at the 2d fin actuator pivots you showed me , you incompetent-it's a retranmission antenna)  Cette antenne est la Liaison Avion-Missile. This antenna is the Liaison Aircraft-Missile. Elle sert au rafraîchissement de 2 MICA (si l'on veut en tirer 2 autres, ils seront autonomes). It serves to refresh 2 MICA (if you want to draw 2 others, they are autonomous). Le missile reçoit ses informations par une petite antenne située à l'arrière du missile. The missile receives its information through a small antenna on the rear of the missile.
 
Then , if the link was bad or the antennas badly placed , how would the VL Mica be so good ? And the Aster ?
It isn't. Neither has shot down anything supersonic, nor can they.
 
The VL (Vertical Launched) Mica really shows that the hardware is working as expected , because it can be fired anywhere on a 360deg bubble . The receiver has to be well placed to receive the mid-link updates every 500 milliseconds , don 't you think ?

Every half second is slow. and it doesn't doesn't refresh through the missile body..   
 

h*tp://www.army-technology.com/projects/vlmica/

Stop bashing the Mica , it is an excellent design .

It ios not used by any first class power as a front line  missile.
********************



Basilisk :


""What kind of lunatic ever thought something like this was going to be "discrete" to radar?""

 

It is better to have some "discrete" features on the airframe and pylons than nothing . Nobody ever said that the Rafale was "Discrete" in every configuration , not even me . But there is something I can tell you , in these two possible configurations , the Rafale still have a RCS 3 times lower than a M2000B or D (10 times less when loaded A2A) .


To put things straight , use a SU-27 , a Mig-35 , a F-16 Blk42 , a Strike Eagle or a SH with the same load and the Rafale will still have the lowest RCS . Then , there is the Spectra suite to protect the Fighter .


 

 

 

Rufus :


""That refueling probe alone probably has a bigger RCS than an F-35""

 

That refueling probe is RAM coated .


 Lie. You would know why that was a lie if you knew chemistry.


""and that says nothing about the rest of the plane and its weapons.""

 

When in Deep Strike configuration , most things under the wings are RAM coated or low RCS , exemple :

 

 

 

Cheers .

Another lie..
 
 Look up occlusion and antenna length to signal reception oh foolish one, and quit posting BS.  


 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 2:32:10 PM
Herald , I knew that you would fall into the trap . Others did too , people like John Lake ...
 
I explain :

""L'antenne située sous le brouilleur de bord d'attaque de la dérive sert au suivit du MICA. The antenna counter- jammier and tracker updater at the edge of the tail is used to follow the MICA.(that's the fairing bulge in front of at the 2d fin actuator pivots you showed me , you incompetent-it's a retranmission antenna)  ""
 
??? I NEVER showed you this because (read my lips) this antenna doesn 't exist . lol ! In fact the site made a big mistake and some took it for granted . Read again : "située sous le bord d 'attaque de la derive" , this is NOT on the tail as you translated it but just before one of the main chord wing ! In fact , there is nothing there !
The Mica has a one way link only Herald , the missile doesn 't have any antenna to "talk back" to the Fighter . The mid-link antennas are in the back of the missiles has as always said .
 
One update evey half of a second is perfectly good enough and it has been proven countless times since Mica exists . Its actual kill-ratio is 95% .
 
RAM coating can be used on anything Herald , it is a coating . The refueling probe IS coated .
The APACHE/SCALP missile is a stealth cruise missile even with its wings deployed . It is RAM coated and its RCS is extremely low . The externals fuel tanks are also low RCS . 
Why don 't you check before typing BS ?
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Herald12345       7/24/2009 3:06:47 PM

Herald , I knew that you would fall into the trap . Others did too , people like John Lake ...

I explain :


""L'antenne située sous le brouilleur de bord d'attaque de la dérive sert au suivit du MICA. The antenna counter- jammier and tracker updater at the edge of the tail is used to follow the MICA.(that's the fairing bulge in front of at the 2d fin actuator pivots you showed me , you incompetent-it's a retranmission antenna)  ""

??? I NEVER showed you this because (read my lips) this antenna doesn 't exist . lol ! In fact the site made a big mistake and some took it for granted . Read again : "située sous le bord d 'attaque de la derive" , this is NOT on the tail as you translated it but just before one of the main chord wing ! In fact , there is nothing there !
 
Well actually there is liar.. Midbody placement like I said, huh?   Who TRAPPED who?  I've been know to deceive with the truth to prove a point, liar.
 
That was a retransmission antenna un the fairing by the way. Its a tracking beacon to tell the aircraft radar where the missile is. That is not a data link. Its a radio flare. 

The Mica has a one way link only Herald , the missile doesn 't have any antenna to "talk back" to the Fighter . The mid-link antennas are in the back of the missiles has as always said
 
Lie..

The missile guidance for a telemetry updater (SARH) (MICA has this) does have to have this transmitter feature, It has to report its position back to the aircraft that launched it so the aircraft can point at it, so the aircraft can keep it in guidance. A directional radio beam is only so wide poster.   
 
One update evey half of a second is perfectly good enough and it has been proven countless times since Mica exists . Its actual kill-ratio is 95% .

 Its kill ratio is ZERO. It has killed NOTHING. Its failure against drones in exercise, at least according to the RoCAF is at least 50%.    

RAM coating can be used on anything Herald , it is a coating . The refueling probe IS coated .

Lie.
The APACHE/SCALP missile is a stealth cruise missile even with its wings deployed . It is RAM coated and its RCS is extremely low . The externals fuel tanks are also low RCS . 
 
Apache is RCS reduced probably by SHAPE.  Fuel tanks are NOT RAM coated nor are fuel probes. Again if you knew basic chemistry you would know why.

Why don 't you check before typing BS, BW ?
 
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warpig       7/24/2009 3:19:28 PM


""L'antenne située sous le brouilleur de bord d'attaque de la dérive sert au suivit du MICA. The antenna counter- jammier and tracker updater at the edge of the tail is used to follow the MICA.(that's the fairing bulge in front of at the 2d fin actuator pivots you showed me , you incompetent-it's a retranmission antenna)  ""


??? I NEVER showed you this because (read my lips) this antenna doesn 't exist . lol ! In fact the site made a big mistake and some took it for granted . Read again : "située sous le bord d 'attaque de la derive" , this is NOT on the tail as you translated it but just before one of the main chord wing ! In fact , there is nothing there !


The Mica has a one way link only Herald , the missile doesn 't have any antenna to "talk back" to the Fighter . The mid-link antennas are in the back of the missiles has as always said .

One update evey half of a second is perfectly good enough and it has been proven countless times since Mica exists . Its actual kill-ratio is 95% .

 
Hmmm.  That whole section about MICA is from a post that overall is about the M2000.  I can not read French, so I realize I'm just taking a wild poke at this, but are you sure that part about the antenna isn't maybe referring to an antenna on the M2000 for sending commands to up to two missiles at once?
I like the part that confirms the motor only burns for 2 seconds.
 
 
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warpig       7/24/2009 3:21:42 PM
Oh, and by the way, BW, that colored drawing shows the means for Rafale to detect other targets, and does not have anything to do with how "discrete" the Rafale might or might not be when other targets are trying to detect it.
 
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Herald12345    ???????????????????   7/24/2009 3:24:57 PM





""L'antenne située sous le brouilleur de bord d'attaque de la dérive sert au suivit du MICA. The antenna counter- jammier and tracker updater at the edge of the tail is used to follow the MICA.(that's the fairing bulge in front of at the 2d fin actuator pivots you showed me , you incompetent-it's a retranmission antenna)  ""





??? I NEVER showed you this because (read my lips) this antenna doesn 't exist . lol ! In fact the site made a big mistake and some took it for granted . Read again : "située sous le bord d 'attaque de la derive" , this is NOT on the tail as you translated it but just before one of the main chord wing ! In fact , there is nothing there !






The Mica has a one way link only Herald , the missile doesn 't have any antenna to "talk back" to the Fighter . The mid-link antennas are in the back of the missiles has as always said .




One update evey half of a second is perfectly good enough and it has been proven countless times since Mica exists . Its actual kill-ratio is 95% .




 

Hmmm.  That whole section about MICA is from a post that overall is about the M2000.  I can not read French, so I realize I'm just taking a wild poke at this, but are you sure that part about the antenna isn't maybe referring to an antenna on the M2000 for sending commands to up to two missiles at once?


I like the part that confirms the motor only burns for 2 seconds.

 


Telemetry link? Let me look at that again.
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 3:33:17 PM
""but are you sure that part about the antenna isn't maybe referring to an antenna on the M2000 for sending commands to""
 
AH ! Someone gets it and the poster doesn 't even read French , well done !
 
Cheers .
 
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Herald12345       7/24/2009 3:37:35 PM
Well that is a telemetry feed described. 
 
Oh here is something for the curious.
 

It should clear up some of the PHYSICS errors that BW makes.
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 3:38:45 PM
I tried to set up 3 traps in one go . One worked , the other was resolved by Warpig .
And the 3rd one ?
 
Cheers .
 
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