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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 7:27:00 PM
I repeat :
 
SPECTRA is apparently now capable to give a firing solution at longer range through some kind of interferometry .
That 's fine to me as long as it is true but I would like to know more . 
As I said earlier , the electronic updates (AESA antennas , CPUs , Buses and software) are now able to compute in real time the adverse EM emissions which are detected . From there , at what range the Rafale could fire a missile ?
When I think about with the help of some studies , I see that very good LPI radars (AESA and fast frequency jumping) are hard to deal with . You only get very few pulses even if your electronic suite is excellent . So , is it good enough to fire an EM Mica (or two) then use the few pulses to keep getting enough data to update the missile for a decent kill ?
 
Please , keep in mind that the Rafale is so far totally silent and is only listening the adverse EM emissions , which means that the adverse ECMs and ECCMs will not detect anything (jamming will be absent or poor/feeble) .
 
If it 's the case , the NEZ of the Mica will slightly increase (unaware target) , the PK will also increase as well as the longevity/survivability of the firing Rafale .
I call this capability a 5th Generation capability , easily . 
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 7:33:18 PM
Are you all going to be honest or keep bashing freely Dassault and Thalès ?
For the second time :
 
h*tp://vimeo.com/5108704?hd=1

Cheers .
 
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Reactive       7/15/2009 7:52:31 PM

Why are you guys still trying to argue with this Troll? It is obvious that this guy is just here to piss people off. He does not care about facts or logic, all he cares about is irritating people with stupid comments, then when a bunch of knowledgeable people prove him wrong, he disappears for a while and comes back with the same BS!

Yeah, bizarrely enough I was going to say the same thing to Rufus earlier when I got sidetracked by the idiot myself.
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 8:04:56 PM
As I said earlier , when you use full screen and pause , you can read about most systems on the Rafale .
Compare them to other non French aircraft and make your own mind (very important) .
 
What you 'll discover is that the Rafale is ahead in situation awareness and in the true omnirole design .
Take any contender one by one , you will see that this one is missing this , the other one is missing that , the third one has nothing like it , etc ...
To start with , only the Typhoon , the Gripen and to a lesser extent the F-22 can match the Rafale 's situation awareness . The latest SU are still an unknown quantity so far . The Super-Hornet lacks a real 5th generation avionic , a multi-video display and the Cam and the computer to go with .

From the Rafale 's pit , you look better from take off to landing (on land or on a Carrier) .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 8:09:37 PM
I said :
"To start with , only the Typhoon , the Gripen and to a lesser extent the F-22 can match the Rafale 's situation awareness ."
 
Sorry , I am wrong . The Rafale is ahead : Spectra + OSF + Mica + RBE2 + sensor fusion .

Cheers .
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 8:25:02 PM
Since it is MY thread on F-22/Rafale , let me add something ;-)
 
How the F-22 is locating its threats since its only mean to do it is the APG-77 ? 
With its radar of , it is as blind as a bat ! Of course its poor ECM suite might warn it that it has been detected and tracked by a mecanical radar (F-22 doesn 't have any interferometry whatsoever so AESA radars will not be detected and tracked) .
It doesn 't have any FLIR or IRST , it doesn 't have any long range TV Cam , it doesn ' have any external IR missile seekers to rely on ...
Well , it is really lacking for a stealth aircraft supposed to kill everything flying , don 't you think ?
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 8:33:36 PM
Oh , I also forgot that it doesn 't have any LRF or long range IR missiles ...
 
Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    What correction   7/15/2009 9:20:29 PM

Seagull :

"" I didn't intend to come back here, but for BW :


Bluewings :




The pylon has been opened for Meteor as well .


No. Not yet. It's going to happen only if UAE signs the contract. ""




Ok , noted .

**************

Herald , there is something I don ' t get . You always seeemed to have a rather good knowledge on rocketry but Blue Apple is correcting you everytime you bring something specific about the Mica , you lost on all the technical points .


If you are good in missile design , you suppose to have a good doc to help posters to understand your exact meaning . You have been saying for years that the Mica had all sorts of problems but you never backed up anything with a French official link stating that Mica was in trouble or having shortcomings . Then , you wrote BS on the seeker , the airframe , the antenna , etc ... You even used your wrong arguments to bash ASTER (which is a Mica) , but againg all you do is expressing your opinion which to be honest , I discard totally . I put it straight in the bin .


 

Just have a look on the VL Mica and you 'll see that none of what you say is holding water . Launching a A2A Missile vertically and archiving the same kill ratio that when launched from a fighter shows the excellence of the design . A VL missile uses a 360deg possible launch and the guiding radar is immobile , if the guidance and the mid-link was not working properly the missile would not work , as simple as that .

 

So Herald , since we can 't take your words for granted could you please provide us with some sort of proof coming from a reputable website , thank you .


 

Cheers .



When someone claims that constant speed motion track that Americans were unhappy with in 1950 (FALCON) why should I pay him any attention?
 
And what kills, BW? WHAT KILLS in  real tests?
 
Assertions are not truth., remember?  They are lies unless backed by data.

 
 
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Rufus       7/16/2009 1:56:21 AM
"How the F-22 is locating its threats since its only mean to do it is the APG-77 ? 
With its radar of , it is as blind as a bat ! Of course its poor ECM suite might warn it that it has been detected and tracked by a mecanical radar (F-22 doesn 't have any interferometry whatsoever so AESA radars will not be detected and tracked) .
It doesn 't have any FLIR or IRST , it doesn 't have any long range TV Cam , it doesn ' have any external IR missile seekers to rely on ...
Well , it is really lacking for a stealth aircraft supposed to kill everything flying , don 't you think ? "
 
 
Actually, I heard that the Rafale is incapable of tracking more than 3 other aerial targets at a time because its processors aren't fast enough to keep up with the demands placed on them by the Rafale's poor "sensor fusion" implementation.  That is why they are limited to fighting pairs in combat, because otherwise the Rafale's computers will be busy keeping track of just the other Rafales to effectively track the enemy. If the computers are told to prioritize the enemy, they start losing track of the other Rafales and risk IDing them as hostile!
 
 
 
 
 
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Blue Apple       7/16/2009 4:06:47 AM
I already demolished you on the IR cooler where you were wrong. Now you compound the error. .
 
ROTFL. I mean, I demonstrated you didn't even know what type cooler the IR MICA used and you call your show of ignorance a demolishing? I know that according to Napoleon a good offense is the best defense but you're just being delusional here.
 
The MICA antenna  is body shadow occluded by its fins and strakes, plus the antenna is the wrong length to cover aspect presentation distortion.
 
Wrong on the first part, you obviously still haven't checked a picture of MICA tail. Or maybe you just don't know what an antenna looks like, after all you stated in another thread that the MICA data link antenna was located in the missile mid-body... Can't really get more wrong than that.
 
The second part is interesting as we're talking >10GHz links with a half wavelength <15mm (that's roughly half an inch for the metrically impaired). So you're either trolling or you don't even have a basic clue about electromagnetism. Given your record on this thread, I'll go for the second option. Well, it's also possible you're an ignorant troll...
 
Not the same (CREF below). 
 
It is exactly the same equation, term for term. It's now obvious you've never designed a regulation system or even followed a basic course on the matter. You try to hide your ignorance of the matter with buzzwords but you simply can't "talk the talk".
 
That's three strikes, I'm afraid you're out.
 
 
BW:
 
With its radar of , it is as blind as a bat ! Of course its poor ECM suite might warn it that it has been detected and tracked by a mecanical radar (F-22 doesn 't have any interferometry whatsoever so AESA radars will not be detected and tracked) .
 
How do you know the F-22 EW/ECM suite is poor? That's exactly the kind of stupid statement that makes you lose all credibility.
 
All public info show it to be avery potent suite, likely muc better than the Rafale SPECTRA in raw performance. The Rafale advantage is that it's based on a more future-proof design (i.e. AESA transmitters vs classic miniature TWT) so that when GaN modules are mature the Rafale can be upgraded while the F-22 will need a complete overall.
 
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