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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-)

The F-22
h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I

The Rafale :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news

Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow .

Cheers .
 
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Beazz       7/19/2009 10:46:51 PM

Beazz , that doesn 't mean anything and you know it .

Let 's talk about something more relevant please .

 

Cheers .



LOL.. uh huh.. the power that runs the brains behind the entire electronics means nothing all the sudden huh BW? That's why your fav plane is a over rated tonka toy and the F22 is the real deal. Nice to see you roll over and admit utter defeat in the elctronics arena. Your tonka toy cannot run what it cannot power and it obviously cannot power much. I don't blame ya, I'd wanna move on to something else to. Something that real numbers are not available to shoot holes in your toy plane.
 
Still wanna see links to where it even has the 1000 you claim and the *possibility* you claim of uping it to 2000................. as well as a link showing how man Billion Operations Per Second??????? Or is it in the case of the rafail MOPS? lol  No wonder you wsih to move on to something *more relevant* then what makes the entire plane work!!
Now back to your usual gobbly gook BS...
 
Quote    Reply

Das Kardinal       7/19/2009 11:04:05 PM
The "overrated tonka toy" consistently received praise from foreign pilots for its superior MMI and sensor fusion. Yeah, I'm sure it must have the processing power of a 1992 Game Boy to achieve that. *rolleyes*
BW's biased in one way, but you sure are biased all the opposite way as well. 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       7/20/2009 1:02:29 AM

-6) Why does the rafale have exposed rivets ?

This is a forum legend . 

 
FFS, it was either you or FS that posted the damn pictures to counter a discussion about raised profiles and sawtoothing issues.  You tried to argue that the sawtoothing was an example of radar emissions manaagement when the whole point was that the panel fit and form was incredibly crude compared to late model american aircraft.  So, in point, what a load of crock.  You can't even remember your own posts.  I posted references from a radar engineers book to reinforce how raised rivets and poor panel fit would escalate a return signal - this is when you again BS'd to try and defvend your claims.  I then also backed it up with references and citations from F-117 pilots and technicians who discussed how poor panel fit would bounce a higher signal and present the plane. You're so used to lying that you can't even remember what you've posted.  

and don't try a new spin by asking me to point it out - Darth posted the same images again not just 2 months ago. - every man and his dog has seen your feeble attempts to weasel out of being a technical luddite. 

 
 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       7/20/2009 1:12:03 AM
One of my response to you dated 15th Sept 2008:
Give Darth enough time and he'll drag out your idiotic responses to panel fit re the photos as well.


Bluewings > First (just to make things clear) , it is a legend that a radar can see a screw or a bolt at 10km , so at 60nm and over ...

gf0012-aust > seeing that you have decided that you want to attack my knowledge base and question my competency, then perhaps you can go out and do some additional research yourself.
 
here's a tip from "The Radar Game, Understanding Stealth Aircraft and Survivability" 
 
"Traveling waves create challenges on the shop floor and in future maintenance, too. As one Lockheed F-117 engineer put it, ?we couldn?t allow even the tiniest imperfection in the fit of the landing gear door, for example, that could triple the airplane?s RCS if it wasn?t precisely flush with the body.? Any protrusions, such as small fairings, grills, domes, and wingtips, can project radar waves back to the sender. Even rivets and fasteners can act as radar reflectors."
 
Cross reference that hilighted line with commentary in "Bandits over Bagdhad" of how the RCS profile was raised when the retractable antennas did not seat fully (and it was discovered that it was akin to being the same profile as a "proud" rivet.)
 
Now that youn have elected to demonstrate trollish behaviour towards me then I feel no compunction in maintaining civility to you.
 
ANYONE - and I mean ANYONE who has had any involvement with signature management will tell you how wavelength in aerodynamics is effected by protrusions on an aircraft - the fact that you say it's BS shows that you have absolutely no ferking idea about the subject matter.  Make the effort to read about Have Blue, Tacit Blue and Senior Trend and what they discovered about wavelength impact on aircraft surfaces.
 
If you don't want to listen to people who do actually have an operational clue in signature management - then buy yourself a credible book.  Start with:
 
Introduction to RF Stealth 
David Lynch, Jr.
Hardcover, 560 pages
ISBN10: 1891121219
ISBN13: 9781891121210 

Publisher: SciTech Publishing,  
 
It's the most useful  $80 you'll spend and maybe you'll learn to actually be humble and appreciate that there are a number of people in here who might just know a tad more than you pretend to do.
 
I leave you to your fantasy of arguing that the rafale is a clean design  - esp when everyone saw the image posted of that appalling picture of Rafale saw tooth panelling (where even the seams were bubbling.) 
 
and fyi, just as you don't give a FF about what the RAAF assessment team thinks of Rafale - neither do I give a FF about a plane that has yet to demonstrate autonomous delivery (yes it needs an assist), doesn't have a modern radar system, doesn't have the onboard power, doesn't have a sale even when offered to third world countries at a discounted french govt subsidised rate.
 
I leave the others to exercise more patience with you - but I am done with you. 
 
If you behave like a troll - you get treated like a troll. 
  
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Irritated......   7/20/2009 1:46:02 AM


I already demolished you on the IR cooler where you were wrong. Now you compound the error. .

ROTFL. I mean, I demonstrated you didn't even know what type cooler the IR MICA used and you call your show of ignorance a demolishing? I know that according to Napoleon a good offense is the best defense but you're just being delusional here.

  No you didn't. You made a claim of what I said and not what I said

You misquoted me and then didn't even know it was built as a too small a chiller for the heat burden expected? I don't think much of you for that.

The MICA antenna  is body shadow occluded by its fins and strakes, plus the antenna is the wrong length to cover aspect presentation distortion.

Wrong on the first part, you obviously still haven't checked a picture of MICA tail. Or maybe you just don't know what an antenna looks like, after all you stated in another thread that the MICA data link antenna was located in the missile mid-body... Can't really get more wrong than that.

 You refer to this.  Midbody means buried and occluded and not in a open fairing.

You were and are deceptive. Its masked by the strakes and fins and buried exactly as I said.

The second part is interesting as we're talking >10GHz links with a half wavelength <15mm (that's roughly half an inch for the metrically impaired). So you're either trolling or you don't even have a basic clue about electromagnetism. Given your record on this thread, I'll go for the second option. Well, it's also possible you're an ignorant troll...

The antenna is not limited to the crest trough of a single wavelength (QM) and you know this, or else its you that doesn't know electromagnetism. The antenna was designed wrong.

Not exactly correct. The aerial has to have a travel length friend.  

Not the same (CREF below). 

It is exactly the same equation, term for term. It's now obvious you've never designed a regulation system or even followed a basic course on the matter. You try to hide your ignorance of the matter with buzzwords but you simply can't "talk the talk".

No its not the same term for term.

 Source.

For one thing, the robot arm is a static mount limited to gimbal and reach; whereas in the three body moving problem all of the objects move independent of each other.   

GOLIS versus GOT logics also apply here.  You keep confusing endgame with trajectory control!

The robot arm  reaches out and grabs a moving object; but it is joint fixed in its space, so it knows its path limits and it knows where the object it grabs or reaches should be exactly. These are sharply defined terms that do not require a fuzzy logic or even much of an APN solution. A missile however only knows these things: the signal it receives at which is steers, the direction it must point, and time in its trajectory. Go to  target has more variables than go to location in space. The equations that regulate signal feedback drift for GOLIS have far more variables than GOT even th0ough the algebra is similar. They have to.

BW:

With its radar of , it is as blind as a bat ! Of course its poor ECM suite might warn it that it has been detected and tracked by a mecanical radar (F-22 doesn 't have any interferometry whatsoever so AESA radars will not be detected and tracked) .

How do you know the F-22 EW/ECM suite is poor? That's exactly the kind of stupid statement that makes you lose all credibility.

All public info show it to be avery potent suite, likely muc better than the Rafale SPECTRA in raw performance. The Rafale advantage is that it's based on a more future-proof design (i.e. AESA transmitters vs classic miniature TWT) so that when GaN modules are mature the Rafale can be upgraded while the F-22 will need a complete overall.

Incorrect on your points because youj confuse the discussed terms, Blue Apple. Regulated control systems do not behave the same way as a class, as signal feedback depends on the type of sensor. and mechanical CONTROL setup For example shadow body control uses a two axes dimensional guidance that tries to turn the moving object into the signal it receives and uses a body shadow to determine the direction to drive.

Beam steering tries to point the object with a signal path that a four.antenna array uses to steer and point.

Proportional navigation uses a forward looking sensor that has a drift bias built into it to correct the angle bias between proprogator reflector and target.

Navigation update uses a predicted path and time of motion to steer the moving object to meet a location.

Not all of these controls use Riccardi equations or other proportional navigation solutions to offset bias.

That you don't know this indicates that you are somewhat IGNORANT on topic. You confuse algebra for specific solution, and the wrong solution for radar missiles as being applicable to all missiles.

But to explain to you and OTHERS..

proportional navigation.

How missiles work

As a rough rule of thumb, the trajectory path in an pro-nav solution is a curve that can be imagined as cut up into constantly changing sized triangles per moving object: the side A is the actual distance the missile moves and the target object moves as of NOW, Angle 1 is the lead bias angle built into the pro nav guidance solution for the missile to point at the future expected position of the target as both triangles are computed, and the hypotenuse of those triangles becomes the side A for the new pair of triangles. Each segment solution is proportioned off the previous solution and compared to each other-hence the term proportional navigation. as missile tries to match target motion.

That is simple for a constant speed missile like a naval torpedo. For an AMRAAM or the defective MICA, the solution must incorporate a decay function variable factored for potential energy lost due to drag and fall.

The angle 1, or bias should over time actually increase in inverse proportion as a direct 1 to 1 correspondence to the loss of momentum.

Hence a well trained fighter pilot doesn't have to out-turn a missile, he just has to know when to jerk out of the final offset bias when the missile closes to strike. The jerk advantage as needs only be 1aircraft/3 missile ratio and the missile usually misses.

Did you understand what I just said? And why the terms for an industrial robot and a MISSILE are NOT the same?

Or why the proportional navigation solution is NOT predict lead which is a ballistic lob trajectory solution to a location (go to location) in space [drop basket] as opposed to a go to target solution which is the pro-nav and strictly an ENDGAMER??

One more thing, don't confuse logics with the mechanical means I describe to employ the types of logics..

Herald

Sheesh, I'm dealing with an ?expert?

I already demolished you on the IR cooler where you were wrong. Now you compound the error. .

 

ROTFL. I mean, I demonstrated you didn't even know what type cooler the IR MICA used and you call your show of ignorance a demolishing? I know that according to Napoleon a good offense is the best defense but you're just being delusional here.

 

The MICA antenna  is body shadow occluded by its fins and strakes, plus the antenna is the wrong length to cover aspect presentation distortion.
 

Wrong on the first part, you obviously still haven't checked a picture of MICA tail. Or maybe you just don't know what an antenna looks like, after all you stated in another thread that the MICA data link antenna was located in the missile mid-body... Can't really get more wrong than that.

 

The second part is interesting as we're talking >10GHz links with a half wavelength <15mm (that's roughly half an inch for the metrically impaired). So you're either trolling or you don't even have a basic clue about electromagnetism. Given your record on this thread, I'll go for the second option. Well, it's also possible you're an ignorant troll...

 

Not the same (CREF below). 

 

It is exactly the same equation, term for term. It's now obvious you've never designed a regulation system or even followed a basic course on the matter. You try to hide your ignorance of the matter with buzzwords but you simply can't "talk the talk".

 

That's three strikes, I'm afraid you're out.

 

 

BW:

 

With its radar of , it is as blind as a bat ! Of course its poor ECM suite might warn it that it has been detected and tracked by a mecanical radar (F-22 doesn 't have any interferometry whatsoever so AESA radars will not be detected and tracked) .
 

How do you know the F-22 EW/ECM suite is poor? That's exactly the kind of stupid statement that makes you lose all credibility.

 

All public info show it to be avery potent suite, likely muc better than the Rafale SPECTRA in raw performance. The Rafale advantage is that it's based on a more future-proof design (i.e. AESA transmitters vs classic miniature TWT) so that when GaN modules are mature the Rafale can be upgraded while the F-22 will need a complete overall.




 
Quote    Reply

Rufus       7/20/2009 2:02:27 AM
"Why do you call me an idiot reactive ?"
 
Now THERE is a mystery...
 
 
Do you think maybe it has something to do with you pretending to be an aviation expert when you clearly don't understand even the basics?
 
Perhaps it has something to do with you lying continually, and making up "capabilities" for your favorite plane?
 
Or maybe it has something to do with you being a troll, and repeating one falsehood after another, long after you have other posters have taken the time to educate you.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Cprrecting the second link   7/20/2009 2:10:46 AM





I already demolished you on the IR cooler where you were wrong. Now you compound the error. .




ROTFL. I mean, I demonstrated you didn't even know what type cooler the IR MICA used and you call your show of ignorance a demolishing? I know that according to Napoleon a good offense is the best defense but you're just being delusional here.


  No you didn't. You made a claim of what I said and not what I said


You misquoted me and then didn't even know it was built as a too small a chiller for the heat burden expected? I don't think much of you for that.


The MICA antenna  is body shadow occluded by its fins and strakes, plus the antenna is the wrong length to cover aspect presentation distortion.


Wrong on the first part, you obviously still haven't checked a picture of MICA tail. Or maybe you just don't know what an antenna looks like, after all you stated in another thread that the MICA data link antenna was located in the missile mid-body... Can't really get more wrong than that.


 You refer to this.  Midbody means buried and occluded and not in a open fairing.


You were and are deceptive. Its masked by the strakes and fins and buried exactly as I said.


The second part is interesting as we're talking >10GHz links with a half wavelength <15mm (that's roughly half an inch for the metrically impaired). So you're either trolling or you don't even have a basic clue about electromagnetism. Given your record on this thread, I'll go for the second option. Well, it's also possible you're an ignorant troll...


The antenna is not limited to the crest trough of a single wavelength (QM) and you know this, or else its you that doesn't know electromagnetism. The antenna was designed wrong.


Not exactly correct. The aerial has to have a travel length friend.  


Not the same (CREF below). 


It is exactly the same equation, term for term. It's now obvious you've never designed a regulation system or even followed a basic course on the matter. You try to hide your ignorance of the matter with buzzwords but you simply can't "talk the talk".


No its not the same term for term.


 Source.


For one thing, the robot arm is a static mount limited to gimbal and reach; whereas in the three body moving problem all of the objects move independent of each other.   


GOLIS versus GOT logics also apply here.  You keep confusing endgame with trajectory control!


The robot arm  reaches out and grabs a moving object; but it is joint fixed in its space, so it knows its path limits and it knows where the object it grabs or reaches should be exactly. These are sharply defined terms that do not require a fuzzy logic or even much of an APN solution. A missile however only knows these things: the signal it receives at which is steers, the direction it must point, and time in its trajectory. Go to  target has more variables than go to location in space. The equations that regulate signal feedback drift for GOLIS have far more variables than GOT even th0ough the algebra is similar. They have to.


BW:


With its radar of , it is as blind as a bat ! Of course its poor ECM suite might warn it that it has been detected and tracked by a mecanical radar (F-22 doesn 't have any interferometry whatsoever so AESA radars will not be detected and tracked) .


How do you know the F-22 EW/ECM suite is poor? That's exactly the kind of stupid statement that makes you lose all credibility.


All public info show it to be avery potent suite, likely muc better than the Rafale SPECTRA in raw performance. The Rafale advantage is that it's based on a more future-proof design (i.e. AESA transmitters vs classic miniature TWT) so that when GaN modules are mature the Rafale can be upgraded while the F-22 will need a complete overall.


Incorrect on your points because youj confuse the discussed terms, Blue Apple. Regulated control systems do not behave the same way as a class, as signal feedback depends on the type of sensor. and mechanical CONTROL setup For example shadow body control uses a two axes dimensional guidance that tries to turn the moving object into the signal it receives and uses a body shadow to determine the direction to drive.


Beam steering tries to point the object with a signal path that a four.antenna array uses to steer and point.


Proportional navigation uses a forward looking sensor that has a drift bias built into it to correct the angle bias between proprogator reflector and target.


Navigation update uses a predicted path and time of motion to steer the moving object to meet a location.


Not all of these controls use Riccardi equations or other proportional navigation solutions to offset bias.


That you don't know this indicates that you are somewhat IGNORANT on topic. You confuse algebra for specific solution, and the wrong solution for radar missiles as being applicable to all missiles.


But to explain to you and OTHERS..


proportional navigation.


 
Corrected link:
 

As a rough rule of thumb, the trajectory path in an pro-nav solution is a curve that can be imagined as cut up into constantly changing sized triangles per moving object: the side A is the actual distance the missile moves and the target object moves as of NOW, Angle 1 is the lead bias angle built into the pro nav guidance solution for the missile to point at the future expected position of the target as both triangles are computed, and the hypotenuse of those triangles becomes the side A for the new pair of triangles. Each segment solution is proportioned off the previous solution and compared to each other-hence the term proportional navigation. as missile tries to match target motion.


That is simple for a constant speed missile like a naval torpedo. For an AMRAAM or the defective MICA, the solution must incorporate a decay function variable factored for potential energy lost due to drag and fall.


The angle 1, or bias should over time actually increase in inverse proportion as a direct 1 to 1 correspondence to the loss of momentum.


Hence a well trained fighter pilot doesn't have to out-turn a missile, he just has to know when to jerk out of the final offset bias when the missile closes to strike. The jerk advantage as needs only be 1aircraft/3 missile ratio and the missile usually misses.


Did you understand what I just said? And why the terms for an industrial robot and a MISSILE are NOT the same?


Or why the proportional navigation solution is NOT predict lead which is a ballistic lob trajectory solution to a location (go to location) in space [drop basket] as opposed to a go to target solution which is the pro-nav and strictly an ENDGAMER??


One more thing, don't confuse logics with the mechanical means I describe to employ the types of logics..


Herald


Sheesh, I'm dealing with an ?expert?



I already demolished you on the IR cooler where you were wrong. Now you compound the error. .



 



ROTFL. I mean, I demonstrated you didn't even know what type cooler the IR MICA used and you call your show of ignorance a demolishing? I know that according to Napoleon a good offense is the best defense but you're just being delusional here.



 



The MICA antenna  is body shadow occluded by its fins and strakes, plus the antenna is the wrong length to cover aspect presentation distortion.


 



Wrong on the first part, you obviously still haven't checked a picture of MICA tail. Or maybe you just don't know what an antenna looks like, after all you stated in another thread that the MICA data link antenna was located in the missile mid-body... Can't really get more wrong than that.



 



The second part is interesting as we're talking >10GHz links with a half wavelength <15mm (that's roughly half an inch for the metrically impaired). So you're either trolling or you don't even have a basic clue about electromagnetism. Given your record on this thread, I'll go for the second option. Well, it's also possible you're an ignorant troll...



 



Not the same (CREF below). 



 



It is exactly the same equation, term for term. It's now obvious you've never designed a regulation system or even followed a basic course on the matter. You try to hide your ignorance of the matter with buzzwords but you simply can't "talk the talk".



 



That's three strikes, I'm afraid you're out.



 



 



BW:



 



With its radar of , it is as blind as a bat ! Of course its poor ECM suite might warn it that it has been detected and tracked by a mecanical radar (F-22 doesn 't have any interferometry whatsoever so AESA radars will not be detected and tracked) .


 



How do you know the F-22 EW/ECM suite is poor? That's exactly the kind of stupid statement that makes you lose all credibility.



 



All public info show it to be avery potent suite, likely muc better than the Rafale SPECTRA in raw performance. The Rafale advantage is that it's based on a more future-proof design (i.e. AESA transmitters vs classic miniature TWT) so that when GaN modules are mature the Rafale can be upgraded while the F-22 will need a complete overall.













 
Quote    Reply

sinoflex    Blue Wings WVR   7/20/2009 3:25:29 AM
Is this official Frency doctrine, to force the enemy to engage in WVR?
 

I don 't dismiss BVR fighting , I just wanna say that in some case "passive" means can give the edge in BVR and can also help to force an enemy to go WVR , where the Rafale shines .


Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

sinoflex    Grrrr, typo   7/20/2009 3:31:16 AM

Is this official French doctrine, to force the enemy to engage in WVR combat?

 



I don 't dismiss BVR fighting , I just wanna say that in some case "passive" means can give the edge in BVR and can also help to force an enemy to go WVR , where the Rafale shines .





Cheers .




 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust    Bump   7/20/2009 4:17:51 PM
I'm reposting this as I don't intend to see it lost in the background so that BW can avoid it again.  Last time you ran off.
Time and time again you come back and repeat the same nonsense when its been debunked and exposed.  You seem to think that by repeating the same rubbish that it will eventually be accepted.  The truth is, that in a number of areas you are either a technical luddite, or you engage in willful misrepresentations of how capabilities actually work.  In short, you lie.

gf0012-aust       7/20/2009 1:02:29 AM

-6) Why does the rafale have exposed rivets ?

This is a forum legend . 

 
FFS, it was either you or FS that posted the damn pictures to counter a discussion about raised profiles and sawtoothing issues.  You tried to argue that the sawtoothing was an example of radar emissions manaagement when the whole point was that the panel fit and form was incredibly crude compared to late model american aircraft.  So, in point, what a load of crock.  You can't even remember your own posts.  I posted references from a radar engineers book to reinforce how raised rivets and poor panel fit would escalate a return signal - this is when you again BS'd to try and defvend your claims.  I then also backed it up with references and citations from F-117 pilots and technicians who discussed how poor panel fit would bounce a higher signal and present the plane. You're so used to lying that you can't even remember what you've posted.  

and don't try a new spin by asking me to point it out - Darth posted the same images again not just 2 months ago. - every man and his dog has seen your feeble attempts to weasel out of being a technical luddite. 

 
 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       7/20/2009 1:12:03 AM
One of my response to you dated 15th Sept 2008:
Give Darth enough time and he'll drag out your idiotic responses to panel fit re the photos as well.


Bluewings > First (just to make things clear) , it is a legend that a radar can see a screw or a bolt at 10km , so at 60nm and over ...

gf0012-aust > seeing that you have decided that you want to attack my knowledge base and question my competency, then perhaps you can go out and do some additional research yourself.
 
here's a tip from "The Radar Game, Understanding Stealth Aircraft and Survivability" 
 
"Traveling waves create challenges on the shop floor and in future maintenance, too. As one Lockheed F-117 engineer put it, ?we couldn?t allow even the tiniest imperfection in the fit of the landing gear door, for example, that could triple the airplane?s RCS if it wasn?t precisely flush with the body.? Any protrusions, such as small fairings, grills, domes, and wingtips, can project radar waves back to the sender. Even rivets and fasteners can act as radar reflectors."
 
Cross reference that hilighted line with commentary in "Bandits over Bagdhad" of how the RCS profile was raised when the retractable antennas did not seat fully (and it was discovered that it was akin to being the same profile as a "proud" rivet.)
 
Now that youn have elected to demonstrate trollish behaviour towards me then I feel no compunction in maintaining civility to you.
 
ANYONE - and I mean ANYONE who has had any involvement with signature management will tell you how wavelength in aerodynamics is effected by protrusions on an aircraft - the fact that you say it's BS shows that you have absolutely no ferking idea about the subject matter.  Make the effort to read about Have Blue, Tacit Blue and Senior Trend and what they discovered about wavelength impact on aircraft surfaces.
 
If you don't want to listen to people who do actually have an operational clue in signature management - then buy yourself a credible book.  Start with:
 
Introduction to RF Stealth 
David Lynch, Jr.
Hardcover, 560 pages
ISBN10: 1891121219
ISBN13: 9781891121210 

Publisher: SciTech Publishing,  
 
It's the most useful  $80 you'll spend and maybe you'll learn to actually be humble and appreciate that there are a number of people in here who might just know a tad more than you pretend to do.
 
I leave you to your fantasy of arguing that the rafale is a clean design  - esp when everyone saw the image posted of that appalling picture of Rafale saw tooth panelling (where even the seams were bubbling.) 
 
and fyi, just as you don't give a FF about what the RAAF assessment team thinks of Rafale - neither do I give a FF about a plane that has yet to demonstrate autonomous delivery (yes it needs an assist), doesn't have a modern radar system, doesn't have the onboard power, doesn't have a sale even when offered to third world countries at a discounted french govt subsidised rate.
 
I leave the others to exercise more patience with you - but I am done with you. 
 
If you behave like a troll - you get treated like a troll. 
  
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       7/20/2009 8:53:47 PM
gf , I have enough respect for some posters and I usually don 't left their post(s) behind .
 
Last year , I was wrong as I was underestimating the very small protuberance on an airframe regarding the RCS .
I 've changed my mind when you posted few articles on the subject .
Now what you must keep in mind is I can be sometimes wrong , but it doesn 't make the Rafale wrong .
 
Dassault has indeed improved the quality control during building and the actual F3s coming out the chain are spot on .
Some late pictures are telling , there is a noticeable difference with the F1s .
Exemple (few weeks old pictures) :
 
h*tp://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7899/6576s.jpg
 
from very close :
h*tp://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1338/6467s.jpg

The "white dots" are heat resistant plastic "stickers" to show the Mech team where the main imbedded screws are .
The surface of the airframe is very smooth .
From another angle :
h*tp://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7452/6563s.jpg

I am sure that you can all notice the improvements .

Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       7/20/2009 9:42:54 PM
Just for fun and to put some people back on tracks ;-)
 
Here is a beautiful picture of the F-15C cockpit (the best 4th gen fighter with an incredible kill-ratio) :
 
h*tp://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8169/aeyesf15c.jpg
What a mess !!! Is it from Apollo-16 time ? 
 
The Gripen cockpit :
 
h*tp://www.thaifighterclub.org/images/fanclub/03.jpg
That 's better , a lot less things and a better view on systems .
 
The Typhoon cockpit :
 
h*tp://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/cockpit/cockpit.jpg
Very similar to the Gripen design when you look at it .
 
The Rafale cockpit :
 
h*tp://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale-cockpit.jpg
This is what us French call Integration , a real 4.5 gen Integration . Huge virtual HUD , huge 3D display , 2 swappable side displays and no switches or buttons , only "mouse and track ball" technology on the sticks and touch-screen technology (with voice input) . Each side screens can act as viewing TV display (with the resolution to go with) to show what the OSF , TV cam and IR Micas see . It is up to the pilot to decide on which screen it wants to watch . He can use the 2 screens to watch what 2 different devices see if he wants to ( TV Cam + Damoclès , or IR Micas + OSF , etc ) .
In any case , the MDPU and the sensor fusion put on the main 3D display all the relevant informations coming from the different sensors of the aircraft + the offboard informations and intels (AWACs , C4s) .
 
We are clearly in F-22 and F-35 territory here and not in the old 4th generation .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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ArtyEngineer    Oh C'mon BW   7/20/2009 11:29:36 PM
Its not that hard to put in pics!!!!  I cant stand all the copy pasting to view pics given as mutilated links.
 
For everyones enjoyment here are a bunch of cockpit pics for comparison ;)
 
Gripen:
 
 
Typhoon:
 
 
Rafale:
 
 
F/A18 E:
 
 
F/A 18 F (Rear):
 
 
F35:
 
 
F35 with HMD Representation:
 
 
F22:
 
 
Another F22:
 
 
There you go folks, now we can get down to teh business of arguing about the correlation between number of button/switches and MFD's and Combat Capability :)
 
Regards
 
Arty
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Arty reply.   7/21/2009 4:38:57 AM
 
Do you want to tell him or shall I?
 
Herald
 
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warpig       7/21/2009 3:10:49 PM
Or how about the correlation between "sensor fusion" and "display fusion" (yes, I made up the second term, as far as I know, in order to have some sort of label to put on a cockpit that does away with individual instruments, switches, and displays in favor of a few multi-function displays).
 
This is not my area of expertise, but I will take a crack at providing a hint:  Sensor fusion is the combining of inputs to make a more complete picture to send as a single output to the pilot.  Display fusion (again, for lack of a better term that I know of) is sending multiple outputs to the pilot but merging them onto fewer displays.  Outputs to the pilot could be fused into very few or even just one big display, and still exhibit *NO* sensor fusion.  The information can be merged together with no sensor fusion, forcing the pilot to still use his brain to do the fusing of the outputs just as he has always done since flight began.  Having them all displayed together or more readily obtained (via better switchology, graphics, etc.) may indeed make the pilot's job of fusing that data easier, but it is not "sensor fusion."
 
 
Quote    Reply
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