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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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warpig       7/8/2009 1:24:11 PM

Warpig to Seagull :


""Now I definitely wish BW would listen to you""

 

I always do Warpig , Seagull 's knowledge on the Rafale is top notch . I often use his references to back up my saying .

This is my harsh talk and strong attitude which is bashed on SP but some posters are constantly using insults toward me !


What I post on the Dassault fighter can always be verified and if I sometimes extrapolate a bit , it is again always in good faith . I am sometimes wrong like everybody else , but I learn as I walk the talk and I always admit defeat when I 'm defeated which is not the case with some other posters .

 

Cheers .




 
 
Except that I was quoting and referring to Blue Apple.
 
If it truly is always in good faith and you always admit defeat when defeated, then the problem must lie in your extremely frequent inability to recognize that you were defeated, because you frequently post crap, you are frequently shown to have posted crap, and yet you frequently refuse to admit it's crap, and you frequently repeat the same debunked crap--***as attested to by essentially EVERY single poster who ever posts anything on Strategy Page, and not just ze Amis, with the only real exceptions I recall off-hand being a couple past French posters.***
 
You can look at pretty much every forum on SP, every subject thread, and there is essentially no other example like yours that I'm aware of.  I challenge anyone to point out any subject, including even French systems, where there is such universal agreement among all SP posters that you are an uncorrectable, uneducatable buffoon.  Even Herald and DA would agree with me on this, and I'm not sure you could find anything else they agree on!  About the only example comparable to you is the near-universal contempt for most anything Herc/Necromancer/Zookeeper says.
 
 
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JFKY    Darth,    7/8/2009 1:28:27 PM
"...you come off like a giant fanboy."
 
 
He IS a giant Fanboi, that's his whole freak'n problem!  In his world there is ONLY the Rafale, nothing else compares.  You might as well ask a Nazi to stop hating Jews and come to your friend's Bar Mitzvah.....It's not going to happen.
 
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warpig       7/8/2009 1:35:49 PM
I admit I am not all that familiar with the specific subject of how the F-22 uses its TVC capability, but I thought I'd read some people's comments that actually the F-22 primarily uses TVC in the transsonic region, and not particularly in the subsonic region which would be the typical regime for close-in dogfighting.  What I find pretty difficult to believe is that a clean F-22 is going to have difficulty matching acceleration and keeping his energy up v. any fighter with several missiles and maybe some wing tanks.  But, I know I can rest assured in the certain knowledge that any such performance dissadvantage in that part of the flight envelope v. Rafales and EFs is meaningless in the real world, so ultimately I don't care (except for being anal retentive about wanting everyone to stick to the facts).
 
 
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Reactive       7/8/2009 1:51:00 PM

Given that it achieved a kill firing at a target behind the wing-line of the plane surely shows that the above isn't correct, it's actually been one several examples of native British engineering producing a world-class missile product, its off-boresight and lock-after-launch capabilities are designed to fully exploit the HMD of the EF.

 

ASRAAM achieved a kill on a target more than 3 miles behind the firing plane. That's hardly a demonstration a fast turning rate.

But surely a demonstration of having adequate off-boresight capability?

The fact remains that the British are adding TVC to their ASRAAM-derived CAMM. If it was able to achieve turn rate >100°/s during boost phase like MICA it wouldn't be necessary.

I've never said the system is superior to every competitor in every area, merely that it was world-class.

But there is no way that a missile with only tail control surfaces is going to achieve such rates.

It's a trade-off, you can have maximal agility, or maximal speed and range, or half and half, ASRAAM has a flight profile that is acceptable to two major Air-Forces who presumably have reason to think they will be effective in the majority of situations they would be used in.

you claiming the missile is a failure performence wise

 

Never said that it didn't perform decently. Only that its development process and abilities showed what I'd call (to avoid being rude agin) a "lack of consistency". It has an excellent engine but no TVC, a very good seeker that can't be used for long periods because of an outdated cooling solution, an INS and large range but no data link. That's like doing 90% of the work and then stopping short of your goal (in this case because the MoD is tired of funding the program).
 
"ASRAAM as a program is a complete failure. The USAF and Germany both rejected the missile as unable to meet their requirements, it's an IR missile with awful off-boresight capabilties and pointless extra range." - I got the impression that you meant it didn't perform well, apologies if you didn't mean that.


If they retrofit the CAMM upgrades to the ASRAAM, then it will have a serious shot at being the best IR missile in the world. Until then it will remain an odd bird with lots of unrealized potential.

Surely they would be more likely to develop an AA version of CAMM, rather than retrofitting? My impression is that CAMM is specifically designed for the potential to be used with existing ASRAAM launch proceedures. It would have a different name but be a derivative version.

 
MICA has other issues (mainly with the IR seeker that seems to be a generation behind its competitors) but is a more "balanced" weapon (for lack of a better word). It's more expensive too.

I'm making the assumption that Herald has some knowledge of the degree of failures, I say this only because I don't think the information to prove otherwise is in the public domain, i.e. you can neither prove nor disprove what he says but for what it's worth, in this instance I find it quite possible he has specific knowledge available?
 
even if that statement was correct (which it isn't) when a missiles seeker activates and its target is several km away outside its FOV or RANGE you would surely conceed that having a working update system
 

That's kind of asking to agree that water is wet... What I'm still waiting for is solid evidence that the MICA mid-course updates don't work (and given the VL MICA qualification campaign carried recently it's a hard one to believe).

And the likelihood is that you won't get that, this is a reality of defense forums. You will see how rare it is for anyone to conceed that they are wrong in anything, (BW) even when widespread data exists to disprove them.
 

Also, for a completely different type of terminal intercept consider Starstreak HVM.

 

Beam riding is another classic navigation law but my answer was within the context
 
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DarthAmerica       7/8/2009 2:02:49 PM

"...you come off like a giant fanboy."

 

 

He IS a giant Fanboi, that's his whole freak'n problem!  In his world there is ONLY the Rafale, nothing else compares.  You might as well ask a Nazi to stop hating Jews and come to your friend's Bar Mitzvah.....It's not going to happen.

Yeah but to an extent so is everybody about something. I'm just trying to use tact and diplomacy to help guide BW passion. If I insult and disrespect him, then we gain nothing except vitriol which we don't need here. Rafale is not bad. It's just not what BW thinks it is. And the reality is that when you have advantages in technology, funding and combat experience as the USA does, chances are your fighters will be more advanced. This isn't an insult against France. Just reality BW needs to accept. F-22 and Rafale have taught the USA and France valuable lessons that will be incorporated into follow on platforms to meet individual requirements which incidentally enough don't include USA vs France in war. Far more interesting to discuss this and THAT is were BW needs to focus his passion.

-DA 
 
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warpig       7/8/2009 2:37:07 PM
Yes, that linked frame of video is from that same video BW posted.
 
 
The sequence starts at 5:18 of the video.  The first frame we see flashes the "Release Stick" message and shows 8.6G.  It stays in the high 8s (8.6-8.7) for a second, jumps to 10.something (apparently 10.0) for less than a second and about at the same time that the "Release Stick" message flashes again, and then the Gs jump back to the high 8s and for the next few seconds climb up to 9.0 and 9.1, then back into the high 8s.
 
As I recall, Seagull told us the soft limit was 8G.  It loks to me like the pilot basically was trying to execute a 9G turn.  Apparently he went into that turn, overrode the soft limit, received the warning which appears to be at least a pair of flashes of the "Release Stick" message, and kept the Gs at about 9G for several seconds.  During that time, the G reading always seemed to change by basically one tenth a G at a time--except for the fraction of a second when it jumped more than 1G and then jumped back again to the same relatively constant almost-9G level maintained throughout that turn.
 
The 10.0G reading seems pretty spurious to me.  However, again, I do not doubt that it could be done, it's just that this example seems odd.
 
 
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Seagull       7/8/2009 4:32:35 PM
10 to 10.5 Gs, that's what the commentator said, and that's what was confirmed by pilots. Not sustained, of course. Only when entering hard turns, promptly.
 
 
BW : sorry for the offense, that was my opinion with a probable lack of humility. I'm not pretending to know more than you on the Rafale, but when i say "much too far", i'm refering to this thread, for example.
I remember also the time when you wrote Rafale history, with details about Active Cancellation... !!! So, no, it's not always possible to verify what you write. In addition, you tend to claim wrong things (intentionally or not).
 
I think it's more productive to talk about Rafale, and only Rafale, with explicit sources, than to try to compare it to other types, because you'll irritate a lot of people and may show you don't know something about the other types.

 This is why i created a dedicated forum... Feel free to disagree with me. Sorry, that is just a friendly advice, no offense intended. We still agree about what's going on here.
 
I think guys like DA and Warpig (for example) are fine, but SP isn't a good place for talking about Rafale. This is why i left. Lies, bias, and language superiority isn't very funny for me.
 
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Seagull       7/8/2009 4:35:41 PM
In addition, you tend to claim wrong things (intentionally or not).
Of course, everyone is prone to this.
 
 
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Herald12345    Interesting turn of events.    7/8/2009 5:25:52 PM
 
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Herald12345    I've yet to see Blue Apple get one thing right about    7/8/2009 5:44:00 PM
the ineffectual MICA or the rather DEADLY ASRAAM.
 
Example, what he calls design failures are actually sensible design choices for a mid-range missile.like the failed MICA was supposed to be.
 
Herald
 
 
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