A picture is worth 1000 words :

h*tp://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4792/raptorstyle.jpg

 

Look at the Red and Blue lines . The aircraft has been built to evade detection and not to obey to fluid mechanics .

 

Cheers .

 

 

My friend from the BA-102 (M2000-5F pilot) just asked me to watch the video from 5:50 to 6:12 and told me that the -5 could do it but the last turn would be slower .

h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Rafale/video/x9n6fh_demonstration-du-rafale-dassault-av_tech

 

He also said to me that he has never seen any aircraft doing this kind of figure in an air show because pulling -3 Gs is not something the Pilots like (neither the aircraft) and certainly not in a such small amount of "available" sky .

This is almost useless in dogfight because a simple barrel is much more effective but the manoever shows the excellence of the FBW as well as the aerodynamics .

 

Cheers .

 

It's not just the US posters, mate : ) The F-22 has a greater acceleration than the Rafale, in addition to TVC and a great FBW system granting it practically full control at extreme AoA. It has a much better high altitude performance, too. It is lacking a HMS/HOBS combination, but appropriate tactics can go a long way in minimizing the said disadvantages.

 

Nevertheless, a confused WVR furball is pretty much the only type of engagement where the Rafale or any other decent dogfighter (e.g. MiG-29, Typhoon) would have any realistic hope of scoring actual kills vs. the F-22, the overwhelming BVR/speed/altitude/SA superiority and the fact that the Raptor would more than likely be in a much better starting position on the merge notwhistanding.

Nevertheless, a confused WVR furball is pretty much the only type of engagement where the Rafale or any other decent dogfighter (e.g. MiG-29, Typhoon) would have any realistic hope of scoring actual kills vs. the F-22, the overwhelming BVR/speed/altitude/SA superiority and the fact that the Raptor would more than likely be in a much better starting position on the merge notwhistanding.

In Gw2 US and coalition pilots were required to stay alert on specified corridors as other operations were in play.  ie, it wasn't a weapons free area although every one was awake.  There are numerous citations of pilots who were within WVR in the tunnel who could not electronically see the F-117's as they were in transit.  These were WVR tunnels, and pilots were often trying to see what else was in the "tube"  This is despite the fact that the F-117's inbound could see (Mk 1 eyeball) all the blue aircraft in that corridor.

In the ferry run into Saudi Arabia the Saudid were unable to see the F-117's until they were on short finals.  This was despite the fact that they were in a mild panic and expecting the iraqis to do a pearl, and were wide awake.

The F-22 is a golden league ahead of the F-117 in LO management terms, harder to see, has active management capability and isn't bound by the flight preparation issues, or the comms cold management issues that the F-117's did when on a tactical.

Again, wake me up when anything other than a JSF, Shornet or Typhoon, with Captor or solo equiv gets even remotely close to being able to close the sensor gap.  Remember how many years a number of us said that Spectra was not an active management/signature management suite suite?  All of us were right despite the frothy protestations coming from those in the home nation.  Nothing has changed since then.

gf0012-aust

"  Remember how many years a number of us said that Spectra was not an active management/signature management suite suite?  All of us were right"

How do you know ? Unless i misunderstood (language ?), Chaltiel told us quite the opposite.

""I remember also the time when you wrote Rafale history, with details about Active Cancellation.""

 

That was a long time ago and from what I was reading (Chaltiel & Co) , I believed in good faith that they were up to something . I was wrong , I admitted it and never talked about it again . 

Beryoza   

"It has a much better high altitude performance, too. It is lacking a HMS/HOBS combination, but appropriate tactics can go a long way in minimizing the said disadvantages."



So you know understand why Rafale won the WVR engagements against the SHornet.







Bluewings12

Even the day when pilots will tell us what happened, there will still be skepticizm on both sides.

Chaltiel never talked about "active cancelation".

 

Here is an extract from the Sweetman's article :

==============

But there is more to Spectra than conventional jamming. Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, a Thales engineer on the Spectra program, remarked in a 1997 interview that Spectra uses "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO [low-observable] aircraft." When asked if he was talking about active cancellation, Chaltiel declined to answer.

==============

 

So, we can't conclude that Spectra uses AC (we have no evidence that it doesn't too). Actually, we don't know what Charltiel was refering to.

 

But to me, it seems that he was talking about an signature management suite.

There is a newspaper in France, maybe Air Fan, which reported a year ago that Spectra has a special mode ("the third") we do not even use in France so as not to be spied.

 

My point ? We don't know what is Spectra.

,,,And we do not "know" that it does not have a phaser and some photon torpedoes, either.

 

<sigh!>

 

Seagull, I thought you were one of the good guys.

 

All EW and COMMS have unclassified operating modes distinct from wartime modes so as not to give intelligence to potential opponents about how they work for obvious reasons. SPECTRA is not unique in this regard and just about every EW suite from the US, Russia, France, China, UK, Israel and other EW heavies do this. This isn't something that should be exaggerated into more magical things SPECTRA does. FAF and FN will have to be as careful as any other nation with regard to operational security AND knowledge of the threats SPECTRA comes up against.

-DA 

Gotta give it to French marketing, coming up with a name like SPECTRA really generated a buzz. Now if only they could have properly managed the Rafale Program with regard to cost, schedules and actual real capabilities there is no reason that plane could not have been as successful as the M2000 or better on the export market.

-DA 

Where in hell did i :

 

-said that the fact that the third mode isn't used in France shows that Spectra is unique in the world ?

 

-suggested it makes Spectra magical ?

 

My point was just to tell you that Spectra also work as a sig management suite, and that no one here is qualified to denigrate it, or underestimate it. I'm not overestimating it. I think it's reasonable to say that "we don't know", when someone here tried to deny a capability, and I was not talking about the Warpig's science fiction (but what a stupid reaction you had, Warpig).

 

So, i agree with DA, all those suites have top secret modes, etc. Of course.

 

Should i be more accurate : i do not buy the active cancellation story. I think it's only a legend born in the B Sweetman's imagination.

 

DarthAmerica : It's not over yet for the Rafale on the export market.

 

 

And, please, everybody, don't put words in my mouth like Warpig and JFKY did. That really give me the feeling that you just want to discredit me just because (sorry) i defend reasonably the Rafale.

 

Up to now, i've no reason to stay.

Ummm not over for the Rafale in some markets maybe. But it will be tough. The FAF and FN have to fully integrate it into their own force mix, integrate more weapons and fit it out with and "updated" avionics package so that it's competitive with the state of the art.

-DA