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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       7/3/2009 5:15:41 PM
No you don't. If you did, you'd know that the MICA IR seeker used a micro-cooler provided by Thales Cryogenics. From a French article (translation is mine):

 Thank goodness you got it.  I spent 2 monthts asking BW to articulate what he understood hot and cold cooling was for imaging systems and he came back with some inance commentary related to negative or thermal grayscale imaging (except he didn't use any of the correct terminology)

I am going to support Herald on his awareness though, as he  and I (along with a few others from here) had some offline traffic  about cryogenics and the fact that BW obviously didn't know what he was talking about.   I would still personally claim that the Swedes have better cryo cooling on their imaging systems than Thales - and I've had some involvement in the past evaluating both.
 
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Herald12345    U've been talking about heat birden and the inadequacy of the Thales cryo-chiller   7/4/2009 10:28:54 AM







That being said , when and where I used exageration ? You tell me Sir .







Every time you claim the Rafale is the best at everything. Like in this thread, you're trying to imply it's better than a plane with better TWR and vector thrusting. Even if the Rafale is better at keeping its energy, the F-22 energy output is so much higher that it won't make a difference.

 

Rafel has its strong and weak point like any other plane. But all you manage to do when you oversell the strong points is dicredit yourself. And the end result is that this site has become nothing but a "let's bash the Rafale" in every other thread with you as the "clown de service". 


 



I actually do know the missile, kumquat.




No you don't. If you did, you'd know that the MICA IR seeker used a micro-cooler provided by Thales Cryogenics. From a French article (translation is mine):

 And who cares?

"Cryotechnologies [now part of Thales Cryogenics] took up this challenge with a never seen before solution in a French AAM: the installation of a splitted rotative Stirling group extracting 0.5W at cryogenic temperatures. The oscillator placed inside the missile body produces the cold and transmit it through a "cold finger" to a cryostat placed next to the seeker. The oscillator was placed far from the seeker to minimize unwanted vibrations. Beyond the thermal constraints, this system can withstand 30 to 40g accelarations. The cooler is designed to operate for at least 200 hours."

Took them two  decades and they still screwed it up

 
Now what was your claim in the other thread? That it had to use either an external supply of coolant or at best a Peltier system? An incorrect claim made by a vindicative know-nothing.

Nope I never actually said; so I now know ywo things. One you don't read, and two you don't know what a Peltier system or how Stirling cooling works. Better do some googling, google boy..You'll be SURPRISED by what you find.

And for your information, the MICA has an inertial reference unit and does not need to lock on the target before launch. In LOAL mode, it works exactly like the AMRAAM with an inertial navigation phase (with target updates provided by the lunching planes through the one-way plane-missile link). The seeker only turns itself on for the end game (for the MICA EM, the MICA IR seeker is of course continuously operating throughout the flight) when it uses some variation of proportional navigation to close on its target like, well, pretty much every AAM or SAM over the last 50 years.
 
Its called an INS or inertial navigation system. Don't try to buzz word me, punk.  The missile update also doesn't work bewcauae they never fuxed the antenna. I've talked about that for years, too. The IR seeker doesn't work unless the target is in the FoV. Talked about that too. You are fairly dumb.about this, too Need to read what I wrote about the missile and quit claimimg that you know something. You already revealed that you don't/..  
 


for months, you idiot. I see where BW suddenly got his knowledge about WHY the MICA sensor or any A2A missile UR sensor needs a cryo-chiller from. From what rock did he recruit you under, fanboy?
 
ROTFLMAO
..
Come in here and quote magazine brochires at me. 
 
Another PUNK.
 
Herald


 
 
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Bluewings12       7/4/2009 1:23:42 PM
Blue Apple :
""Every time you claim the Rafale is the best at everything. Like in this thread, you're trying to imply it's better than a plane with better TWR and vector thrusting. Even if the Rafale is better at keeping its energy, the F-22 energy output is so much higher that it won't make a difference.""
 
So much higher energy out put ?? The F-22 TWR @50% fuel is 1.26 , Rafale TWR @50% fuel is 1.20 , this is comparable . It is the aerodynamics who make the difference and you know it Blue Apple . Yes the Rafale performs better in a turning dogfight than the F-22 .
 
You should have left Herald responding to my questions before to give the answer . You could also have posted the begining of the article :
"The mosaic homing head multicellule of the Mica IR carries out an imagery of bands I and II and more visualizes the heating of the leading edges or the skin of the engine that the gases of the exhaust . Contrary to the OSF, the band 8-12 µm is not used for the homing head of the Mica; this is due at the very high speed of the missile, which induces temperatures too high of the port-hole: few materials resist these temperatures in 8-12 µm."
 
Blue Apple , something is telling that you are NOT French .
 
gf :
""I spent 2 monthts asking BW to articulate what he understood hot and cold cooling was for imaging systems and he came back with some inance commentary related to negative or thermal grayscale imaging (except he didn't use any of the correct terminology)""
 
Sorry , I never fully understood your question it seems .
 
Hearld (about the Mica IR seeker) :
Took them two  decades and they still screwed it up
 
The clown has no proof and nothing to back up his stupid and vindicative claim and he will not find anything .

""The missile update also doesn't work bewcauae they never fuxed the antenna. I've talked about that for years, too. The IR seeker doesn't work unless the target is in the FoV""
 
Another lie from a know-nothing . He indeed talked about it but he has always been unable to provide anything meaningfull , to say the least . I am not even sure that he knows the FoV angle of the seeker . 
Basicaly with Herald , check the links he sometimes provide but forget the rest , it 's not worth it .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/4/2009 2:30:15 PM
Since we speak about the Mica 's seekers , the EM seeker is evolving . A new homing head is being worked on (the 4ANG) to able the missile to deal more easily with low RCS target and towed jammers .
 
"The improvements having been the subject of studies and former developments were integrated in a demonstrator of homing head 4ANG which was evaluated by the DCE, in digital simulation and hybrid with the CELAR and in-flight tests with the CEV with Cazaux. The technologies developed with this occasion made it possible to treat obsolescences and to reduce the production costs of series, in particular by the generalized use of components out of plastic case, while increasing the performances. The missiles Mica NT, Aster and Meteor will profit directly from these technological advancements. Since the drafting there is more than fifteen years of the general specifications of the first French anti-aircraft missiles with active electromagnetic guidance (primarily Mica and Aster), the operational context deeply evolved/moved with the vulgarizing of angular jamming (towed jammers, active lures?) and proliferation of targets of very weak RCS which includes, in addition to the cruise missiles and the drones, tactical ballistic missiles. These studies started with the improvement of angular discrimination to allow the continuation of a quiet target in the presence of dépointés jammers (towed jammers, co-operative jammers, jammers of escort, remote jammers of safety stand-off?). They gave place to the realization of a prototype of homing head called ANGEL (electromagnetic Homing head new generation). They continued with the exploitation of the progress made in the field of the transmitters and the numerical synthesis of frequency, giving access thus novel modes of operation (high-resolution outdistances, agility of frequency, intermediate frequency of recurrence?) offering significant performance profits. To develop these various studies, SPNuM entrusted at Thalès Airborne systems the realization of a demonstrator of anti-aircraft active homing head of new generation: 4ANG. This homing head has increased capacities of angular discrimination and distance thanks to the implementation of the new functionalities. These improvements could be applied to the programs Mica NT, SAMP-T, PAAMS and, later on, to the Meteor program."

Thalès is not sleeping .

Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    They found their so called two stage cycle solid state sterling device doesn't work.   7/5/2009 1:33:40 AM
Simple isn't it? Let me know when you catch on, punks.
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/5/2009 9:36:08 AM
Words without substance . Prove it .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/5/2009 12:28:57 PM
You are called lying again . Where and when did you prove it ? Nowhere .
Where and what is your case ? Where are your proofs ? Any study or official article from Thalès ?
 
You got nothing clown .
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Herald12345    Ces't le clown.   7/5/2009 2:52:30 PM
 
Herald
 
 
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Blue Apple       7/6/2009 3:55:20 AM
Herald:

Took them two  decades and they still screwed it up
 
Nope, the integrated cooling of the MICA IR works fine. And of course mechanics are delighted about not having to manage gas bottles anymore. 
 
If you want to talk about screw up, I believe the ASRAAM would be a more fitting topic (a modern IR AAM without TVC, no integrated cooling and an INS but no data link? WTF? Well, at least the seeker imaging is world class....).
 
Nope I never actually said
 
Let's see: on the 23 March 2009 you claimed that:
 
"It means how long the gas flask is good before it has to be recharged before all the gas leaks out.Just how big a gas supply do you think the chiller can carry you buffoon? Of course the MICA could possibly use a primitive Peltier cooling unit, but that lasts only as long as the batteries hold out. That isn't very long either. By the way, we Americans, and some others use something called a Stirling cryo-engine, dummy, to cool our Sidewinders' seekers. Don't bother to google it. You'll find it, but you won't understand it at all."
 
Obviously the French understand it very well since the MICA IR entered service with a similar solution 3 years before the AIM-9X...
 
And obviously you did demonstrate your ignorance about the MICA seeker cooling by making that comment.
 
The missile update also doesn't work bewcauae they never fuxed the antenna.
 
Could you explain what you meant in proper English? The aircraft missile link (LAM in French) works fine (it didn't work reliably on the F1 Rafale back in 2003 but it was fixed soon after).
 
The IR seeker doesn't work unless the target is in the FoV.
 
Is there any seeker that works if the target is not in their field of view? That's a rather weird statement.
 
Besides, the MICA IR seeker is mounted on a gimbal with a +/- 60° pointing range so unless the target is behind the missile the MICA IR seeker can always point directly on it.
 
Need to read what I wrote about the missile and quit claimimg that you know
 
Why would I spend time reading junk? Your repeated claim that IR & RF missile use different pursuit strategies is a complete fabrication. Anyone can google "proportional navigation" + missile and see for themselves that pretty much every missile has used that class of algorithm for the last 40 years.
 
BW:
 
So much higher energy out put ?? The F-22 TWR @50% fuel is 1.26 , Rafale TWR @50% fuel is 1.20 , this is comparable . It is the aerodynamics who make the difference and you know it Blue Apple . Yes the Rafale performs better in a turning dogfight than the F-22 .

A F-22 with 50% internal fuel is about the same as a Rafale loaded with full internal fuel...
 
I agree that the Rafale is probably better at conserving its energy (the Le Bourget demo is quite telling, with minimal airflow disruption even during >9g turns). But the F-22 can generate so much more energy it isn't even a close contest.
 
Blue Apple , something is telling that you are NOT French .
 
Well, a few km southwards and I would be.
 
Thalès is not sleeping .
 
I would hope. The RF seeker they're using everywhere is based on 20 years old technology.
 
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Bluewings12       7/6/2009 11:21:03 AM
Herald , the link you gave us is only showing you expressing your "opinion" and talking junk .
If it 's all you have , you indeed have nothing , case closed .
Since Blue Apple rightfully corrected you , I let it go ...
 
Blue Apple :
""But the F-22 can generate so much more energy it isn't even a close contest.""
 
Could you explain to me what you mean exactly ? Are you talking about acceleration , eg : x Seconds from 100knt to 450knt ?
If its the case , the F-22 indeed has a better acceleration at high altitude but in "ra-da-da" (under 2000m) the Rafale has the edge and we are talking about acceleration in a straigh line . Acceleration during cornering (dogfight) is waay in favor of Rafale .
 
""I agree that the Rafale is probably better at conserving its energy (the Le Bourget demo is quite telling, with minimal airflow disruption even during >9g turns)""
 
Yes , it is true . We just have to look at the latest Typhoon display which shows great airflow disruption (a la F-18) :
 
h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB_rHAICeVM


So , you are Belge ?

Cheers .
 
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