The F-22 has an incredible ability to turn on itself at very low speed and point its nose where it wants (slowly but surely) , it has an excellent FCS and it shows . For a Fighter of its size , the aerodynamics are good and the lift excellent . Fortunatly , the engines are providing more than enough thrust but it is needed . During the various accelerations , the F-22 is rather slow to gain speed especialy when manoevring hard in the vertical plane . It did a nice full 360 circle at 9gs (I believe) but the speed was probably under 320knt which is very average for a dogfighter . It s instantaneous turn rate is excellent (TVC) but its sustained turn rate is suffering as the video is showing from 0:48 to 1:11 (23 seconds for a 360) .

The overall speed of the display is slow (poor ?) and my general feeling is that the aircraft lacks most of the qualities asked to a good dogfighter . 

I am talking about dogfighting and NOT about BVR , keep that in mind .

 

On the other hand , the Rafale display is far more "aggressive" . It is based on high G turns , extremely fast speed , high power vertical climbs and "barriques" followed by fast tight sustained turns . As I see it the Rafale would be all over the F-22 , a bit like a Dolphin giving a swimming lesson to a Shark ... The Dolphin is all over .

 

I spotted something new in the 2009 Rafale display (not seen in the 2008 display) , it is from 5:14 to 6:00 . The jet climbing hard and fast , then do a real tight inverted turn ( a la F-22 but twice faster), goes for a vertical dive followed by a full barrel and a controled dive to loose speed very quickly with an AoA of more than 40degree (!) (from 360knt down to 120knt) to start its usual low speed pass .

 

More I look at the F-22 in various displays ,  more I see an elephant trying to run like a sheetah  ...

 

Cheers .

BW I respect your right to your opinion but you are embarrassing yourself unless you are merely discussing which plane performs better aerobatic displays. We may as well digress back to the Flanker/Cobra discussions.

-DA 

DA :

Btw , check at 7:24 and the following 10 seconds .

This is a negative -3g inverted turn (!) followed by a barrel and a tight 6g left 180deg turn and it took the aircraft 10 seconds to do it .

This is what an exceptional flyer can do , people at LM and Boeing should watch and learn .

 

Cheers .

I know that you hate when someone bursts your bubble but it is needed . The two videos are real and there is nothing you and I can do about .

 

Cheers .

 

 

Thank you .

 

Cheers .

lol !

...

 

Chers .

This is what an exceptional flyer can do , people at LM and Boeing should watch and learn .

Cheers .

This is the single most unbelievable thread I've seen on SP in a long time. I mean seriously, the idea that you can judge and compare platform performance during DIFFERENT scripted maneuvers and use that as some measure of which one is better in a dogfight is laughable. Seriously, THIS DOES NOT NEED TO BE A 100+ post correction session. From this point forward we should boycott this subject as it is an utter and complete waste of time. There is no way BW is being serious. If so then it's even more of an exercise in futility.

-DA 

BW you need to move away from the *air show* videos and stop drinking while you post. You are showing yourself to be a complete fool. Do you know what an *air show* is? It is a show conducted by various different aircraft *purely* for spectators *entertainement*. It has NEVER been a  show of the maximun capabilitys of those a/c. Some nations like France and Russia try and use them more then others, such as the USA, in order to try and say looky at what we can do and the others can't. But the real powers to be actually know how to act like they been there before and feel no need to prove anything.

 

If you had any knowledge whatsoever of how airplanes really perform you'd just shut up and go away. I have personally saw the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds over the years perform. We also had a squadron of FANG F16's and F15's based at the civialian airport I worked at and I saw on a daily bases THOSE a/c come back from the warning areas, enter the overhead and then the *break* and they routinely turned circles around what I saw at any air SHOW. And I can promise you that what I saw sure as hell was NOT all they had either!! You have shown beyond any doubt your complete amateur status when it comes to military aircraft. You are one of those internet fan boys that actually thinks an airshow is a demonstration of the maximum capabilitys of an a/c. You say you are 46 I think it is, but yet you still don't know that an air show is nothing more then a performance for entertainment sake only!! lol

 

For the Americans it is NOT a sales pitch like it may be for the French and Russians. We know what we got and SO do all the rest of the people that count. You know, the ones that stroke the checks? Yea I know France hasn't met many of those types but surely you are aware that THEY are the ones that count and do exist. Not some clowns at a public *SHOW*. lol
You remind me of some team playing a football game and loseing 49-0 and with a minute to go you score a touchdown and then dance around in the endzone for 5 mins while the other team is standing over on their side of the field laughing at you make a spectacle of yourself acting like you never been in the endzone before!! lol

 

Have a nice amateur fantasy life BW,

 

Beazz

Does strategypage ever ban trolls?

 

I am not generally one to call for banning, but lets be honest about bluewings.  He is obviously an idiot, but it is not sufficient to say he is just an idiot.

 

He is in every thread about every aircraft lying about his favorite airplane and generally screwing up the message board.

 

He knows better.  He knows by this point that trying to compare these jets based on their low/slow handling is idiotic and that airshow routines in general are not useful as a means of estimating combat performance.

 

This board might as well be named "Stupid crap some truck driver made up about the Rafale, and efforts to educate a truck driver who can't/won't learn."

Can anybody tell me why you are that much freaking out about BWs posts ? I am certainly not the "aircraft expert" you guys obviously are, but what your problem - just a guy coming along and saying that in his opinion the Rafale has a comparable or maybe better maneuverability than the F22 ? I rad your posts and in almost every second post there are words like "Troll", "Liar", "Idiot" ... are these your arguments ? hey, if you "know what you ve got" - just stay relaxed ...

I mean from all I have heard (a little bit from primary sources - but most of it read from secondary sources -e.g. DERA studies -, I have to admit - so I really do not know much about it), there seems to be no question about the F22 being the most capable fighter aircraft currently, because this aircraft seems to be excellent in almost every aspect ranging from maneuerability, to stealth, supercruise up to its sensory and computational capabilities (which is obviously reflected in the costs of the bird). However this does not mean that something like the Rafale or the Typhoon is not comparable to the F22 in one or two of these aspects, although being inferior in all the others.

 

You have been posting a lot about the fact that the Rafale cannot be sold. I think that so far the decision to go for the Rafale was from an economic point of view a desaster. As far as I can remember the political tactics initially was to just create facts (i.e. a real aircraft) while the Eurofighter countries were still debating about the Eurofighter project and rewriting the specs and so maybe get some of them to divert from the Eurofighter project and buy a French product. Well, this has not turned out to work well - so, yes, the Rafale was not a desaster from a financial perspective. However, I also don't find it very appealing if you produce a superior aircraft, which is however so expensive that you can't afford to buy a large enough number to further guarantee your air superiority. Is this success ? I don't know.