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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/1/2009 3:33:59 PM
Herald :
""Aster, Mica, Charles de Gaulle CV, the Forbins, the Laugh it ups (Lafayettes), the Rafale, THALES, and Blue Wings are junk.""
 
This is your opinion , nothing more . I couldn 't care less .
*********
Since the video showing the display of the Rafale at Le Bourget is on the Net , 2 more videos have been Officialy released .
The first one show the same video of the display but the commentary is made by the pilot who flew the aircraft , Capitaine Cedric Ruet , aka "Rut" . If you understand French , it is worth to listen . Cpt. Ruet explains in details what he 's doing , at what speed and altitude , the G factor , the restrictions , etc , and how it is done . He also speaks about the 3 manoevers which can be done only if you ride a Rafale , like the "Square dance" , the inverted turn on the belly at -3g , etc .
It 's a real eye opener .
 
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Rafale/video/x9n6fh_demonstration-du-rafale-dassault-av_tech
 
The second video shows Cpt. Ruet reharsing the display in training with a lot of cockpit camera shoot . This one is not for the faint hearted or the air sick ! Fasten your seat belt :
 
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Rafale/video/x9lo1i_demonstrateur-rafale-2009_tech
 
Let 's be honest now , I have tons of videos , I 've seen many different aircraft at various air meetings but I 've never seen a jet flying like the Rafale does , not even the Typhoon , not even the SU-35 and certainly not any operational US aircraft .
Knowing the Rafale weaponry , FCS and avionics , there is no doubt that the Rafale is the best dogfighter around .
I do like what Cpt. Ruet is saying about the brute power of the M88 engines , just after the slow pass at 100knt , the aircraft start a vertical climb and keep accelerating like mad . Cpt. Ruet says that even the Typhoon doesn 't have the power to do it and the speed reached at the top of the climb is higher with the Rafale . He also speaks about the Typhoon not being able to do the "Square dance" because it lacks power , aerodynamics and the needed flight controls to archive such hard figure in a small volume of sky . The "Square dance" goes like this : start straight at 450knt , do a barrel immediatly followed by a 90deg turn , do that 4 times in the row while keeping your airspeed (from 2:38 to 3:19 in the first video) , end up at the same 450knt .
 
Some posters will probably say how can the Rafale has more power than the Typhoon when the Tyffie 's engines are more powerfull . The only explanation is that Rafale is a better flyer , it can find lift better , it is less draggy and the canards are where they supposed to be .
I hope that clear things up .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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JFKY    MY G*D   7/1/2009 3:40:49 PM
You're really gonna stick with this fantasy that an air show demonstrates anything of value for combat?  This is sad...air shows are to make the crowd go "Ohh" and "Aaaaaahh" and let the public know what they are getting for their taxes.  No more, no less...they certainly have very little to do with combat performance.
 
I saw a beautiful flyby of a Tornado at a local air show, what should I look for and what conclusions ought I draw from do you think, BW?
 
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Herald12345    You cannpot argue with ignorance.    7/1/2009 3:47:29 PM
But you can point out the liars, JFKY.
 
There is being wrong and there is lying.
 
We have an example of both from that, poster.
 
I, myself, posted examples of Raptors on SP that outperform anything that the liar posted as showing the Squall as doing anything equivalent at low speed and he's seen those videos.
 
Shrug. He's a liar. 
 
Herald
 
.
 
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Bluewings12       7/1/2009 4:12:04 PM
""You're really gonna stick with this fantasy that an air show demonstrates anything of value for combat?""
 
Of course and I stick to it , any pilot will back me up on this . In a turning dogfight "free for all" , the Rafale is going to rule , it is as simple as that . The jet can :
-1) out accelerate most other fighters (if not all)
-2) out manoever ANY other fighter
The Mica and the Defa canon will get the kill .
 
Sincerely , I don 't understand how you can dismiss so easily the acrobatic performance of an aircraft , I don 't get it .
The USAF found the Eagle rather good at dogfighting , until the F-16 wax it because it is a better flyer . Then , the M2000 waxed the F-16 in turning dogfight and now the Rafale is more or less all over everybody else . Where is your problem ?
 
As I said , knowing the weaponry , FCS and avionics of the aircraft , the Rafale is the best dogfighter around .
The "Cobra" and "controled stall" shown by SU-XX and Raptor are useless in combat and we all know it , we all have been discussing these manoevers to no end . Myself , I rate the latest SU-XX higher in dogfight than the F-22 for multiple reasons like aerodynamics , acceleration , drag and more importantly because the F-22 has to fly with the bay doors open for God sake !!
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Rufus       7/1/2009 4:49:56 PM
As you can see from the above post, he is happy simply lying.
 
He really could not care less whether he makes himself look like a total fool, he has probably learned to accept that looking like a fool is inevitable, so he is happy to just make up lies that he wishes were true.
 
 
 

 
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warpig       7/1/2009 5:03:53 PM

The first one show the same video of the display but the commentary is made by the pilot who flew the aircraft , Capitaine Cedric Ruet , aka "Rut" . If you understand French , it is worth to listen . Cpt. Ruet explains in details what he 's doing , at what speed and altitude , the G factor , the restrictions , etc , and how it is done . He also speaks about the 3 manoevers which can be done only if you ride a Rafale , like the "Square dance" , the inverted turn on the belly at -3g , etc .

h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Rafale/video/x9n6fh_demonstration-du-rafale-dassault-av_tech


The second video shows Cpt. Ruet reharsing the display in training with a lot of cockpit camera shoot . This one is not for the faint hearted or the air sick ! Fasten your seat belt :


h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Rafale/video/x9lo1i_demonstrateur-rafale-2009_tech
 
 

I certainly do enjoy watching jets doing neat tricks, so I will watch the videos.  Since I can not read or speak French, could you tell me where in the videos the pilot or the HUD says the jet is pulling more than 9Gs?  That way when I watch them I will be ready to witness such awesome maneuvering.  Thanks.
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/1/2009 6:14:53 PM
Warpig :
""tell me where in the videos the pilot or the HUD says the jet is pulling more than 9Gs?""
 
Nowhere , as far as I know the 2009 display has a 9g limit . The emphasis of the display is speed .
 
Cheers .
 
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warpig       7/1/2009 6:28:41 PM

Warpig :


""tell me where in the videos the pilot or the HUD says the jet is pulling more than 9Gs?""

 

Nowhere , as far as I know the 2009 display has a 9g limit . The emphasis of the display is speed .


 

Cheers .





 
 
Crap!  I am disappointed.  I was led to understand that Rafale *routinely* performs 11G maneuvers during airshows.  Guess whoever told me that was just another internet idiot.
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/1/2009 6:29:28 PM
The video posted by Herald really shows that the Raptor is fat and slow , exactly what I said , an elephant trying to run like a sheetah .
The "back-flip" is as useless as the "cobra" in a fast turning dogfight , you loose ALL YOUR ENERGY , you are a sitting duck in the sky and the ability to rapidly point your nose is gone to the bin . Imagine a fighter chasing the F-22 (even with guns only) and the Raptor tries the trick : ouch ! The F-22 presents its back for a very nice 30mm burst and when you see the size of the target , even Ray Charles would hit .
 
Thanks for the ammo Herald .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/1/2009 6:42:19 PM
Gents , keep in mind that I am talking about dogfighting capabilities and NOT BVR combat where the F-22 shines .
 
Cheers .
 
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