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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    Go back to ground school.   7/31/2009 6:50:11 PM

The DAS is revolutionary as a threat awareness system.since it uses an electro-optical sensor web to give true 360 degree threat bearing information to a pilot so that all he has to do is look at it instead of fumble for the presentation through a HUD .  

I agree on the DAS, but DAS is not the entire avionics suite and not representive for every single system. The EOTS for example is a Sniper XR based system, the F-135 a redesigned F-119 etc. What I want to say with that is that not all of the systems onboard the F-35 are entirely new and that given the time it will take until the aircraft goes operational with all of that stuff, you might see quite compareable systems onboard existing designs.
 
No you will not. The engine for example is quite beyond SBECMAs ability to duplicate. Our IR systems are at best a generation AHEAD of yours. As for radar, the French haven't even figured out how to make an AESA that works without US help. Nor can you..
  .
And BTW I'm well aware about those public stuff. The point is it was claimed "it is = fact" while it's raw speculation nothing else. I don't say it won't, but also don't say it will if you know/understand what I mean.

Opeval for F-35 is 3 years away. The French will not have their F-3 Rafale before we have our Sparkies IOC the way things are going. In fact 2014 deploy is 5 years away.  

How many? One?

We have at least five Sparkies in opeval NOW.
Rafale F3 are already operational. And when it comes to the F-35 I yet wait to see the aircraft officially declared IOC ready. The experience with other recent programmes and the ongoing delays within the F-35 programme

Wingman is uninformed. If you want to support Sampaix, then by all means do so. The YF-23........

 I think you missed the point here.

  I didn't. CREF above. and this:
 
 
The stabilizer is primarily there for CONTROL-even in :LO aircraft.. It is not a radar signal return defeating feature. Its a reflector. To mitigate that defect, the stupid things get a dihedral edge shaping and are canted so as to scatter and redirect the refraction angles of signal return  The Squall shows nothing of the kind.of signal return management for shape and cant, so I know that its a signal return bullboard, just by looking at it..     
 
Herald
 
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MK       7/31/2009 6:52:16 PM

MK :


""The Gripen has participated in a number of joint exercises, including Red Flag Alaska.""

 

I did not know . Any link please ? :-)

 

Cheers .






It's best to take a look here:
 
and here:
 
Gripens participated in way to many exercises to post a link to each one respective. But the official website is a good start in the news and publications sections (see links above) you'll find plenty of articles about the Gripens in joint exercises all over Europe and the US.
 
 
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MK       7/31/2009 7:02:41 PM
No you will not. The engine for example is quite beyond SBECMAs ability to duplicate. Our IR systems are at best a generation AHEAD of yours. As for radar, the French haven't even figured out how to make an AESA that works without US help. Nor can you..
 
Huh? The entire statement makes no sense in relation to my post. BTW I'm neither french, nor was it related to the french here at all. 

How many? One?

No idea how many exactly, but definitely a couple and not just one.
 
I think you missed the point here.



 I didn't. CREF above. and this: 
The stabilizer is primarily there for CONTROL-even in :LO aircraft.. It is not a radar signal return defeating feature. Its a reflector. To mitigate that defect, the stupid things get a dihedral edge shaping and are canted so as to scatter and redirect the refraction angles of signal return  The Squall shows nothing of the kind.of signal return management for shape and cant, so I know that its a signal return bullboard, just by looking at it..   
 
No news here at all and you still seem to miss the point. 
 
BTW at whom is the "go back to ground school" aimed?
 
 
 
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usajoe1       7/31/2009 7:08:37 PM
The SU-30MK1 and the SU-35 are still unkown quantity as I said few post earlier . We don 't know how good their systems are and their long range missiles are also unkown and unproven .
 
No they are not liar!
 
The SU-30MKI uses the N011M Bars PESA radar, which is the most powerful of its kind. It uses the R-77 BVR-AAM, which along with its powerful radar make it it a very formidable ASF.
 
WVR, the Sukhoi has a HMS and a IRST,and one of the best WVR missiles in the world, the R-73. together they are very deadly.
 
The Sukhoi uses the Israeli Litening Targeting Pod.
 
It also uses Israeli ECM's which are known to be world class.
 
The Sukhoi uses the Russian Al-31FP TVC engines.
 
For A2G, its wing loading is larger than the F-15 and uses every Russian LG/TV/ASM/ARM in inventory. It will soon be able to lunch the AL verison of the BrahMos CM.
 
The Sukoi is a heavy class ASF with western western subsystems. It is about the same class as the upgraded F-15's without the AESA radar, and is the best ASF you can get for less than 50 million $
 
although It does have the worst RCS of any 4.5 gen fighter out there today, and yes BW a Rafale with better trained pilots and AWACS is more deadly than the Sukhoi.
 
 
 
 
 
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Herald12345    The BW brigade needs to go back to ground school..   7/31/2009 7:16:45 PM

No you will not. The engine for example is quite beyond SBECMAs ability to duplicate. Our IR systems are at best a generation AHEAD of yours. As for radar, the French haven't even figured out how to make an AESA that works without US help. Nor can you..


 

Huh? The entire statement makes no sense in relation to my post. BTW I'm neither french, nor was it related to the french here at all. 





How many? One?



No idea how many exactly, but definitely a couple and not just one.


 The French Marine received their first one in June this year.; on the 9th I believe. It is opeval only and NOT operational.  


I think you missed the point here.








 I didn't. CREF above. and this: 

The stabilizer is primarily there for CONTROL-even in :LO aircraft.. It is not a radar signal return defeating feature. Its a reflector. To mitigate that defect, the stupid things get a dihedral edge shaping and are canted so as to scatter and redirect the refraction angles of signal return  The Squall shows nothing of the kind.of signal return management for shape and cant, so I know that its a signal return bullboard, just by looking at it..   

 

No news here at all and you still seem to miss the point. 

BTW at whom is the "go back to ground school" aimed?

The fanboys. The title carries over unless you delete it.
 

 
We're passing each other here. Lets get on the same topic to be sure we discuss the same thing.. What were you talking about in statement one if you were not suggesting that foreign aircraft will have comparable systems to the F-35 by series introduction. I know in the specific cases I mention that will not be the case at least for a decade.

And for the jet engine-probably never unless the PRCs steal the tech.
 
Herald
 
 
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MK       7/31/2009 7:26:00 PM

What were you talking about in statement one if you were not suggesting that foreign aircraft will have comparable systems to the F-35 by series introduction. I know in the specific cases I mention that will not be the case at least for a decade.

Well I indeed meant foreign aircraft might not be behind in all areas (Rufus statement sounded a bit like that), but I didn't explicitely refer to the Rafale here. I base this statement, which is an opinion on the experience of the not to distant past. There were a lot of new technologies envisaged for aircraft like the F-22 for example which found their way into existing designs around the same time the F-22 finally entered service. I personally expect the F-35 to be the most advanced combat aircraft at the time it enters service, albeit I wouldn't bet it will hold an edge in every single area. The combination of all factors is decisive however and not a single factor only.
 
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Bluewings12       7/31/2009 9:14:31 PM
Herald :
""Lie: if you knew what you were discussing you would have explained HOW IT WORKS""
 
Oh for cry out loud , I was only explaining the basics and I am correct . Stop it !
 
Joe :
""The SU-30MKI uses the N011M Bars PESA radar, which is the most powerful of its kind. It uses the R-77 BVR-AAM, which along with its powerful radar make it it a very formidable ASF.
WVR, the Sukhoi has a HMS and a IRST,and one of the best WVR missiles in the world, the R-73. together they are very deadly.""
 
We know that Joe ...
 
Cheers .
 
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usajoe1    BW   7/31/2009 10:45:12 PM
We know that Joe ...
 
If you know that, then why did you post this?
 
The SU-30MK1 and the SU-35 are still unkown quantity as I said few post earlier . We don 't know how good their systems are and their long range missiles are also unkown and unproven .
 
 
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Herald12345       8/1/2009 2:10:35 AM

Herald :


""Lie: if you knew what you were discussing you would have explained HOW IT WORKS""

 

Oh for cry out loud , I was only explaining the basics and I am correct . Stop it !

??????????????????????????????
 
What basics? You didn't even know that the information extracted was arc diameter distribution measured against sky and that you needed two such measurements by triangulation to estimate a smear or that such a range estimate based on IR detectors is useless at the ranges we fight since the range gate depth front toi back  is greater than a planetary diameter.


Joe :


""The SU-30MKI uses the N011M Bars PESA radar, which is the most powerful of its kind. It uses the R-77 BVR-AAM, which along with its powerful radar make it it a very formidable ASF.

WVR, the Sukhoi has a HMS and a IRST,and one of the best WVR missiles in the world, the R-73. together they are very deadly.""
 
We know that Joe ...


Cheers .


Joe answered your second lie.(CREF his answer above). I'm satisfied that his answer deals with you appropriately

Herald
 
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Lynstyne       8/1/2009 2:54:53 AM

I am not a physicist but interferometry is a way (a technique) to analyse (diagnostic) radio (or optical) waves patterns , this allows the origine of the radio (or optical) signal to beknown . Regarding the electronic warfare suites and for the technique to work , extremely sensitive sensors are needed as well as optical and electronical devices and also a good computing power . Better the suite is , better the precision will be .

Basicaly , a good ECM suite will be able to precisely locate the position in 2D of the emitter . The signal is also analysed and memorised for further purposes . Then , the ECM suite can try to precisely jam the emitter if the Fighter is equipped with some kind of active AESA antennas without alarming anyone else around .


As far as I know , the only operation Fighters capable to do so even "clean" are the F-22 and the Rafale .

 

You know bull when you read it, Steve.

 

In simple English as applied to LIGHT, (this includes radio waves): interferometry is the means whereby  the receiver uses  a pair of comparators separated by a known baseline distance. The receiver points at a single emitting light source at an unknown distance away. The receiver takes the common signal from the target and that signal is split and the split signal is routed through the timed interval setup (the known baseline distance separation of the comaprators). The comparators recombine the signal after thus "maze run" and straight run, and a phase interference pattern is analyzed.That will give you a rough idea of how fast the object moves over time as the phase pattern should time change with aspect presentation and distance (if your clocks are accurate enough) as the sugnal moves across the sky. Since we can build two of these rigs with another kinown baseline and use bearing triangulation to get a very rough range we can very roughly estimate that range. Hence two values, speed and range, give us a very rough track. The problem is that IR crest trough wavelength is too imprecise to generate a firing solution over usable time. The phase smear is just too broad for a good crest count in the few seconds that you have and the range; a "blob" almost a sky second of arc across and with a time distance variant of signal that could be up to 1/50th of a light second makes close range gating useless. 1/50th of a light second bu the way is 5994 kilometers. See the problem?  


 

Herald


 

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Twas I not Steve but Thanks
Bw while i thank you for youre reply - your reply wasnt what i was looking for - possibly i should have phrased the question better.
 
Herald
 
thanks for youre reply  if i understand correctly its using a similar principle to the old doppler nav systems (very broadly) - and rad alt where phase difference is indicataive of a distance.
 
only interfeen is using the input signal only and no aircraft generated comparator circuit..
 
im using avery broad analogy so as to keep this very simple i appreciate its probably a great deal more complicated than that.
 
I recall watching many technical how does it work programs which describe radar as a rubber ball thrown against the wall it bounces off the wall and time taken /speed = distance. a good analogy but wrong radar isnt reflected (and we all use that expression) or bounced its reradiated.

 
 
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