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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/30/2009 11:55:32 PM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
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Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/31/2009 12:15:19 AM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
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Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/31/2009 12:30:42 AM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
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Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/31/2009 12:49:19 AM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
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Rufus       7/31/2009 2:27:19 AM
Wingman, there are far too many errors in your recent post for me to spend the time required to correct them.
 
If your intention was to supply an impossibly large supply of fantasy material in the hope that some of it would slip through unchallenged... well then I guess you succeeded, though to what end I can only guess.
 
That said:
 
"First of all design are mostly evolutionary and the US scool of aircraft design have a long history of using twin fins INCLUDING for non L.O aircrafts, i.e. the YF-17 and F-18."
 
Oh? Then it should be easy to find a foreign concept with a big vertical tail right?
 
Since you clearly know of such examples I will let you supply them. 
 
We are all waiting   ;-P
 
 
"A S-shapped inlet glove and vanes features on its structural airframe and engine design are not ADD-ON plug and play features."
 
Oh there was some minimal effort made.  As I said before there was an awareness outside the US that it was possible to reduce the RCS of aircraft.  The Rafale did ultimately receive some measures to that end, but they were extremely limited.
 
"This is a LIE.

  At Roll out of the Rafale C or D for Discreet, the EM and IR reduction work was obvious and already well advertised, nothing to do with marketing, what you are doing is called revisonism."

 

Gee, you don't think trying to advertise the plan that way had something to do with marketing?  lol
 
I give the French credit for knowing how to market a plane, the problem is that their marketers appear to know more about what customers are looking for than their engineers.  This entire effort to cling to the term "discrete" is just silly. 
 
What is discrete? 
 
A totally conventional 4th generation aircraft, with a modest effort at RCS reduction... but from France!
 
"F-18 design in no stealthier than that of a Mirage 2000, the twin fin feature is an aerodynamic arrangement inherited from YF-17, NOT a stealthy design."
 
Where did I say it was?  I never said that simply HAVING a canted tail meant that an aircraft was stealthy, only that no aircraft with significant RCS reduction work would have a vertical tail.  You can't turn around people's statements and pretend they work both ways.  It is true how I said it.
 
 
"The race for stealth was ON long before ATF was launched in 1983 even in Europe, the principles of radar reduction features are known since the invention radar and use of large Karman wing-fuselage junctions."
 
lol, "race for stealth."
 
If that were true it would be pretty pathetic.  The US has been flying stealth aircraft for over 30 years now, some race...
 
Give your engineers some credit, if there had in fact been a "race for stealth" they would have produced something useful by now.  
 
There is no doubt other states were aware of the potential for stealth aircraft, I stated that already.  There is also no question that it is only in the US that that potential was aggressively explored.  Europe tinkered with conventional designs, while the US built multiple generations of fully operational stealth aircraft.  (as well as numerous full scale demonstrators, experimental designs and prototypes)
 
As I said before.  I get that it offends your national pride to find out your country was behind the curve on something, but facts are facts.  The US is the only country in the world that has demonstrated mastery of stealth design and nobody else has even come close. 
 
"They did have the technology to design a L.O aircraft as RAND describes today"
 
That Rand report, as I already explained to you, is not even attempting to officially define terms.  It made arbitra
 
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Slim Pickinz    oops   7/31/2009 2:28:26 AM

http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emangry.gif" alt="" /> stupid website design. sorry about the multi-post, my bad.
 
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Wingman       7/31/2009 6:47:51 AM

Slim Pickinz   
especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?

  Well when i will read something noticeable for being not only level but accurate i'll let you know, you have no idea wehat my experience is, pretending is one thing, i'm still waiting for you to demonstrate otherwise than by calling people names and flaming...

 
Slim Pickinz 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale,

  That's 90% of you pretending to know about it then.



Slim Pickinz 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent.

  For your info it  already does, the fact tha tyou don't know it yet is another issue...

 

Slim Pickinz
 I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.

 You dont, you just indicated that you are still unaware, next time you have the opportunity, ask one of the Rafale pilots  what they think of them.

>>>>>


Rufus  
Wingman, there are far too many errors in your recent post for me to spend the time required to correct them.

  Please DO because you keep writing and prove little...

 
 Rufus
Oh? Then it should be easy to find a foreign concept with a big vertical tail right?
 
   You should READ the history of Typhoon before writing, the FACT is the twin fins are an aerodynamic feature ported to L.O after it was already adopted by the US designers before even thinking of stealth. 
 
 Rufus
Oh there was some minimal effort made.

 This is certainly NOT a minimal effort.

 Had you known your basics you would comprehend the FACT that a straight inlet have a better pressure recovery characteristic than a curved one, there also are resonance issues created in the S-shapes due to the high transonic airflow.

  If the compressor blades have to stay subsonic, it doesn't mean that compressive waves doesn't occur in the inlets expecially when they are of this type; Pitot, since it have to happen to slow down the airflow before it reaches the compressor blades.

  This, with only a diffuser to provoc a mild shock on their leading edge, making the 1.5 shock, which helps and give a 0.2 Mach margin.

  The presence of S-shaped glove requieres a high degree of computation too.

  As a matter of FACT, Typhoon designers didn't have CATIA nor ONERA and Saint Cyr advanced aerodynamic simulation and tunneling facilities to help them with this, and Typhoon suffers from high-frequency vibrations due to a marginal inlet design.

  You totaly forget that aerodynamics doesn't suffer approximation and in the case of US twin fin design it shows big time.

 

 Rufus
  As I said before there was an awareness outside the US that it was possible to reduce the RCS of aircraft.  The Rafale did ultimately receive some measures to that end, but they were extremely limited.

  Not ultimately, but well before DESIGN STAGE.

  And more to the point, there are feature there that you keep ignoring and are well known to reduce RCS, it's all a matter  of compromise and even US V.L.O fighters does compromise.

  F/A-18 is designed angularly like the F-22, Rafale uses souple curves like YF-23, from the from it shares a very similar cross section, similar to B2, nEUROn or XB-47.

  Aerodynamics have their own characteristics, since even radar wave are responding to air (radar waves are also MTO dependent although not by a high degree), it is normal that some aerodynamic features will have a repercusion in radar return.

  Since the invention of radar, the Karman wing/fuselage junction is known to reduce radar return, so does the mid-fuselage mounted wing.

  Associated with a leading edge sweep as close as possible to 45* this gives a pretty good characteristic of radar return to Rafale from side like from the frontal area.
 
  You came up with the single fin "No No" forgeting that all leading and trailing edges on YF-23 were 45* and that visibly the 30* or so
 
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Herald12345    What an ignorant poster.   7/31/2009 7:07:46 AM
Twin vertical stabilizers offer better yaw control for size of control surface.......

Here, poster.
 
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/YankeeAirMuseum2003/Sampler/B24Banking.jpg" width="691" height="497" /> 
 
http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Ewrgi/pb4y2.jpg" width="697" height="496" />
 
I would also point out that the British have forgotten more about aerodynamics than the French ever learned, but why bother. Just the Harrier proves the British had and have more on the ball than the buffoons of Dassault.
 
But then so does Saab, Finmeccanica, .... and Sukhoi........http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />


 
 
 
 
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Y. pestis    France's early LO (discrete) Designs   7/31/2009 9:46:09 AM
France has been working on LO for quite some time.
Note the reliance on radar absorbing material
Twin tails
S Shaped prop
 
Please note this design has 4 vertical tails (2X better than 2)
 
 
....
Sorry couldn't help myself.
French posters -please take this as just a jest not an attempt to flame.
I actually think the Rafale is a beautiful plane regardless of the tech talk going on.
 
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Rufus       7/31/2009 12:04:35 PM
My you seem eager to make an utter and complete fool of yourself...
 
 "You should READ the history of Typhoon before writing, the FACT is the twin fins are an aerodynamic feature ported to L.O after it was already adopted by the US designers before even thinking of stealth. "
 
A childish lie... requiring no rebutal
 
"This is certainly NOT a minimal effort."
 
By the standards of reduced RCS aircraft it absolutely is.  The small amount of shaping and 'S' shaped inlets incorporated into the Rafale are a classic example of a "low hanging fruit" approach to RCS reduction.  The engineers identified several of the easiest steps they could take with the most meaningful improvement available and took them.  That was the extent of their efforts.  That is why the Rafale kept its vertical tail, fixed refueling probe, canards, etc.  None of these things would have remained if a serious effort had been made.
 
"From F-18 to F-35 they always encountered the SAME aerodynamic problems due to the SAME aerodynamic design, showing the old SAME aerodynmamic characteristic for "destructive" vortex at high AoA."
 
Another childish lie requiring no rebutal.  The F-18 is in service in a number of countries and has been for a long time.  Where you heard this fantasy is a mystery to me, but then much of what you try to pass off as fact is at best grossly misunderstood.
 
"For the time being, the Rafale can easly out-turn anything when staying in the best part of its flight envelop blah blah blah"
 
I am not going to discuss aerobatics displays with someone of your limited intellectual capacity.  The Rafale, like any fighter, has areas of strength and weakness.  It is a maneuverable plane, but the maneuverability of all 4th generation aircraft has reached the point where it is virtually impossible to gain a meaningful advantage through increased maneuverability anymore.  Helmet mounted sights and long range weapons have rendered "dogfighting" largely obsolete.  If/when WVR combat occurs between two late 4th generation aircraft it will be very short, as one or both will be able to take a high Pk shot almost immediately.
 
"When we see all the fantasise we can read about F-35 we think we're just amateurs because you see, trying to pass this for a dogfighter or an Air Superiority fighter takes some degree of mickey taking, and then some, only a simple look at its design features and aerodynamics tells me it is FAR from being that performant in this role..."
 
LOL, you really really don't want to bring the F-35 into this.  The F-35 is the plane you fanboys WISH the Rafale was. 
 
It has the world's most capable ECM suite, it has the world's most capable IRST, it has DAS, it has the world's most capable sensor fusion and man-machine interface, it has the world's most capable helmet mounted sight/display,  it has the world's most capable AESA radar, it is STEALTH, and it has numerous first-tier countries lining up to buy it.  To top it all off, the F-35 gives up nothing in speed or maneuverability to 4th generation aircraft when carrying a useful load, not that it will need to do anything so plebeian as actually point its nose at something it wants to kill...
 
"Totaly conventional? LOL!"
 
Yep... It is a totally typical design for its era, a very conservative choice on the part of its designers.
 
"You IMPLY that the twin tail is a stealth feature which it is not"
 
What I TOLD YOU, not implied, is that no aircraft that has received significant RCS reduction will have a vertical tail.
 
There are multiple ways to avoid a vertical tail a canted tail is one possibility, as are tailess designs.
 
"Even F-22 compromises in this area and this is why it is known that YF-23 had a lower RCS, it was the one w
 
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