first export sale for Rafale

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 9:45:10 AM

usajoe :

""You call that proof? I want you to provide a offical document from a credible source that supports your assumption, and Yves Robins is not a credible source on this matter, for obvious reasons. BW either provide proof or stop posting such BS!""

Joe , you should do your reseach before calling BS what I post . The F-15K lead to a huge scandal (bribes , interest conflicts , even spying) in South-Korea . In fact , it went up to the Seoul District Court .

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""Last month the Seoul District Court rejected an injunction sought by the French aircraft maker to stop the contract from going to US rival Boeing. Dassault, which produces the Rafale, has left South Korea and said it will not participate in any future government procurement bids after the decision to go with Boeing's F-15K (...) President Kim Dae-jung approved an air force agreement on May 28 to purchase 40 F-15K fighter jets from US aircraft maker Boeing from 2005 through 2009 to serve as South Korea's next-generation fighters. Boeing's F-15K, the advanced version of the F-15E, was widely perceived as an aging aircraft, prompting speculation that South Korea caved in to US pressure, opting for Boeing even though French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation SA offered a lower price for its fighters. If Boeing's F-15K were chosen, it would invite furious internal repercussions and suspicion that South Korea, once again, had succumbed to US pressure to buy US weapons. These suspicions come not only from the military (the South Korean Air Force favored Dassault) but from many lawmakers and the general public, who are tired of 50 years of US economic and political pressures""

Joe , I am not inventing stuff , the Korean AF found the Rafale to be more capable and they indeed favored the Dassault fighter .

Cheers .

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Herald12345 LIAR! 6/23/2009 10:01:22 AM

Source....

Fighter jet scandal rocks Korea

By David Isenberg

In the latest twist to a controversial weapons-procurement program, a South Korean Air Force court martial last Wednesday sentenced a colonel to three years in prison on charges of bribery and disclosing classified military information concerning a US$4.23 billion fighter-jet sales contract, commonly known as the F-X project.

President Kim Dae-jung approved an air force agreement on May 28 to purchase 40 F-15K fighter jets from US aircraft maker Boeing from 2005 through 2009 to serve as South Korea's next-generation fighters. Boeing's F-15K, the advanced version of the F-15E, was widely perceived as an aging aircraft, prompting speculation that South Korea caved in to US pressure, opting for Boeing even though French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation SA offered a lower price for its fighters.

The court said Colonel Cho Ju-hyung received a total of 11 million won ($9,300 at current exchange rates) in bribes from a representative of Dassault over a period of nine months from January last year. Cho's defense counsel said the colonel was only acting according to his conscience to highlight the misdeeds of the Defense Ministry regarding the purchase of next-generation fighters.

The F-X program has been so controversial that in June the Ministry of National Defense said it would publish a White Paper, to be researched and written by the Korea Institute for Defense Analysis, by October on the bidding for the F-X program. A ministry official said, "The White Paper will contain all the specifics concerning the selection process, beginning with the Korean Air Force's proposal for the next-generation fighter-jet project." It will be the first official analysis published by the ministry concerning the project.

From the South Korean perspective, the competition was a no-win situation. If Boeing's F-15K were chosen, it would invite furious internal repercussions and suspicion that South Korea, once again, had succumbed to US pressure to buy US weapons. These suspicions come not only from the military (the South Korean Air Force favored Dassault) but from many lawmakers and the general public, who are tired of 50 years of US economic and political pressures and angry that President George W Bush has intensified tensions in Korea by labeling North Korea part of an "axis of evil".

US pressure to buy from Boeing were an unsettling reminder of South Korea's junior-partner status to the United States. They began in spring 2000, when Bush pushed for a Boeing purchase in his meetings with Kim. After that, Boeing sent a delegation to Seoul that included several key members of Missouri's congressional delegation, including Senator Christopher Bond, a Republican, and Richard Gephardt, a Democrat who represents the city of St Louis. The pressure went up a notch last October when Boeing lost a huge $200 billion contract for the US Joint Strike Fighter to its largest rival, Lockheed Martin. A few weeks later, Bond warned that "very unfortunate things could happen" to US-Korean relations if Seoul decided against buying Boeing's F-15 Eagle.

Meanwhile, the idea that South Korea, with its 50-year relationship wit

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strat-T21C 6/23/2009 11:24:47 AM

Now that is a credible quote, not a guy saying " I quote"

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strat-T21C 6/23/2009 11:28:27 AM

Nothing has been signed yet .

Rufus is making some good points ("This isn't a competitive deal. They aren't even pretending to consider other planes") but this :"so France gets to sell them some overpriced fighters they don't need." , I do not understand .

The Rafale F3 with AESA comes at a good price ($72 millions) and the F4 (?) version 's price is not known at this time .

""This deal simply has nothing to do with actual requirements or capabilities""

This is simply wrong , it has everything to do with capabilities .

The UAE are not getting the Rafale to simply replace the M2000-9 fleet (while it is a good move) but to make sure to have the absolute edge on Iran . The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the M2000-9 (obviously) and the F4(?) version (without the nuclear capability) will be a formidable foe .

Duplex :

""1-SNECMA will have to invest hundresds of millions of Euros in new engines..""

False , the M88-3 wanted by the UAE has been running for ages and is ready to put into production .

Cheers .

Not true.
The M88-3 has not been "running for ages, or is it in production" I read in Janes last week that the deal is depending on Frances' being able to provide this plus a active radar. Niether of these are available at this time.

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Spiky Herald 6/23/2009 11:53:30 AM

Well, that last post of yours clears it up pretty well. Those sneaky Dassault guys. :)

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 12:07:54 PM

Herald :

""Dassault was the briber, Dassault was the company that tried to steal Boeing secrets and it was Dassault that Boeing CAUGHT.""

You are not talking about the F-15K vs Rafale deal Herald . What you are talking about is the F-X project .

I come back on it in a moment .

In my last post , I only highlighted the bits regarding the Rafale and the F-15K and the facts still stand : Rafale won the evaluation and not the F-15K .

Now , regarding the bribes versed to Colonel Cho Ju-hyung , Boeing has nothing to do and did not catch Dassault , the Korean AF did . It has to be noted that the Colonel Cho Ju-hyung seems to be defending his nation interest more than anything else :

""Cho's defense counsel said the colonel was only acting according to his conscience to highlight the misdeeds of the Defense Ministry regarding the purchase of next-generation fighters.""

In this regard , the Korean Colonel was only the voice of the Korean AF who knew that France could probably provide a better project , he paid dearly for it . He gave to Dassault some of the F-X program blueprints and the feedback was probably clear to him : Dassault could do better and cheaper .

But this is a different story .

Back to the Korean deal . The results of the Korean evaluation are still classified and even on the best French military blogs or forums , nothing has transpired . What we have is some corridor talk , during the Air to Air evaluation , the Typhoon came first (with suppositly no loss) , Rafale ended up close second (with one loss it seems) and the F-15K came third (with few losses) . During the Air to Ground evaluation , the Typhoon was rather quickly dropped from the competition , leaving only two contenders left , Rafale and F-15K . The Dassault fighter also won the AtG for apparently 3 reasons : the Korean AF liked very much the MMI , the AASM and the countermesure system .

Now regarding the price of the various package , it has been said that the Typhoon deal was the most expensive , followed by the F-15K deal and the Rafale deal being the cheapest .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 12:19:20 PM

Strat :

""The M88-3 has not been "running for ages, or is it in production" I read in Janes last week that the deal is depending on Frances' being able to provide this plus a active radar. Neither of these are available at this time.""

First I said that the M88-3 is READY to put into production and not in production yet .

Secondly , the UAE will only have to wait one year for France to produce enough AESA RBE2 for their fleet . Since the UAE did not want to participate at the funding , France has decided to keep the actual roadmap .

Cheers .

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Herald12345 Tiyb were caught just like Dassault. 6/23/2009 12:25:26 PM

Herald :

""Dassault was the briber, Dassault was the company that tried to steal Boeing secrets and it was Dassault that Boeing CAUGHT.""

You are not talking about the F-15K vs Rafale deal Herald . What you are talking about is the F-X project .

I come back on it in a moment .

In my last post , I only highlighted the bits regarding the Rafale and the F-15K and the facts still stand : Rafale won the evaluation and not the F-15K .

""Cho's defense counsel said the colonel was only acting according to his conscience to highlight the misdeeds of the Defense Ministry regarding the purchase of next-generation fighters.""

But this is a different story .

Now regarding the price of the various package , it has been said that the Typhoon deal was the most expensive , followed by the F-15K deal and the Rafale deal being the cheapest .

Cheers .

Your credibility is ZERO.

I used your own citation TO FIND THE SOURCE YOU LIFTED THAT FROM, liar, WORD FOR WORD.

Now we have two lies from you. Want to make it three?

Herald

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Rufus 6/23/2009 1:05:31 PM

"First I said that the M88-3 is READY to put into production and not in production yet ."

Then why does it require development funding?

Or an even better question, why am I asking a clueless truck driver, and a liar at that, about high performance jets?

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 2:02:10 PM

Herald , my last post is very clear . We both used the same link and you are simply unable to counter my post in a decent way , so you go again personal . Just ask yourself what your credibility is with non-US posters . Or you bash , or you elude the question , or you go personal . This is not very serious don 't you think ?

Rufus :

""why am I asking a clueless truck driver""

Because the clueless truck driver knows more than you do . Then , you dare call me a liar when I use open links on the Net , fair behaviour , NOT .

""Then why does it require development funding?""

This is not "development funding" as the development of the engine has been completed , this is manufacturing funding that I am talking about . Why do I have to repeat things on and on ?

Cheers .

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