first export sale for Rafale

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 9:45:10 AM

usajoe :

""You call that proof? I want you to provide a offical document from a credible source that supports your assumption, and Yves Robins is not a credible source on this matter, for obvious reasons. BW either provide proof or stop posting such BS!""

Joe , you should do your reseach before calling BS what I post . The F-15K lead to a huge scandal (bribes , interest conflicts , even spying) in South-Korea . In fact , it went up to the Seoul District Court .

Quote :

""Last month the Seoul District Court rejected an injunction sought by the French aircraft maker to stop the contract from going to US rival Boeing. Dassault, which produces the Rafale, has left South Korea and said it will not participate in any future government procurement bids after the decision to go with Boeing's F-15K (...) President Kim Dae-jung approved an air force agreement on May 28 to purchase 40 F-15K fighter jets from US aircraft maker Boeing from 2005 through 2009 to serve as South Korea's next-generation fighters. Boeing's F-15K, the advanced version of the F-15E, was widely perceived as an aging aircraft, prompting speculation that South Korea caved in to US pressure, opting for Boeing even though French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation SA offered a lower price for its fighters. If Boeing's F-15K were chosen, it would invite furious internal repercussions and suspicion that South Korea, once again, had succumbed to US pressure to buy US weapons. These suspicions come not only from the military (the South Korean Air Force favored Dassault) but from many lawmakers and the general public, who are tired of 50 years of US economic and political pressures""

Joe , I am not inventing stuff , the Korean AF found the Rafale to be more capable and they indeed favored the Dassault fighter .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Herald12345 LIAR! 6/23/2009 10:01:22 AM

Source.

Fighter jet scandal rocks Korea

By David Isenberg

In the latest twist to a controversial weapons-procurement program, a South Korean Air Force court martial last Wednesday sentenced a colonel to three years in prison on charges of bribery and disclosing classified military information concerning a US$4.23 billion fighter-jet sales contract, commonly known as the F-X project.

President Kim Dae-jung approved an air force agreement on May 28 to purchase 40 F-15K fighter jets from US aircraft maker Boeing from 2005 through 2009 to serve as South Korea's next-generation fighters. Boeing's F-15K, the advanced version of the F-15E, was widely perceived as an aging aircraft, prompting speculation that South Korea caved in to US pressure, opting for Boeing even though French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation SA offered a lower price for its fighters.

The court said Colonel Cho Ju-hyung received a total of 11 million won ($9,300 at current exchange rates) in bribes from a representative of Dassault over a period of nine months from January last year. Cho's defense counsel said the colonel was only acting according to his conscience to highlight the misdeeds of the Defense Ministry regarding the purchase of next-generation fighters.

The F-X program has been so controversial that in June the Ministry of National Defense said it would publish a White Paper, to be researched and written by the Korea Institute for Defense Analysis, by October on the bidding for the F-X program. A ministry official said, "The White Paper will contain all the specifics concerning the selection process, beginning with the Korean Air Force's proposal for the next-generation fighter-jet project." It will be the first official analysis published by the ministry concerning the project.

From the South Korean perspective, the competition was a no-win situation. If Boeing's F-15K were chosen, it would invite furious internal repercussions and suspicion that South Korea, once again, had succumbed to US pressure to buy US weapons. These suspicions come not only from the military (the South Korean Air Force favored Dassault) but from many lawmakers and the general public, who are tired of 50 years of US economic and political pressures and angry that President George W Bush has intensified tensions in Korea by labeling North Korea part of an "axis of evil".

US pressure to buy from Boeing were an unsettling reminder of South Korea's junior-partner status to the United States. They began in spring 2000, when Bush pushed for a Boeing purchase in his meetings with Kim. After that, Boeing sent a delegation to Seoul that included several key members of Missouri's congressional delegation, including Senator Christopher Bond, a Republican, and Richard Gephardt, a Democrat who represents the city of St Louis. The pressure went up a notch last October when Boeing lost a huge $200 billion contract for the US Joint Strike Fighter to its largest rival, Lockheed Martin. A few weeks later, Bond warned that "very unfortunate things could happen" to US-Korean relations if Seoul decided against buying Boeing's F-15 Eagle.

Meanwhile, the idea that South Korea, with its 50-year relationship with the United States, might select a French company for a strategic project like the F-X irked the Pentagon and raised concerns among US military analysts. Historically, South Korea has purchased 80-90 percent of its weapons from US manufacturers.

Last month the Seoul District Court rejected an injunction sought by the French aircraft maker to stop the contract from going to US rival Boeing. Dassault, which produces the Rafale, has left South Korea and said it will not participate in any future government procurement bids after the decision to go with Boeing's F-15K.

This is not the first time corruption charges have been made in regard to the fighter project. In May it was reported that Choi Kyu-sun, a former aide to President Kim, was supposed to receive $12 million from Boeing in return for his help in ensuring that the company won the project.

That investigation focused on the possible connection between Choi and Boeing, with Choi contending that the son of Kim's right-hand man Kwon Roh-kap, who is working at General Electric (GE), studied in the United States on a Boeing scholarship. Kwon is under arrest on bribery charges.

In April South Korea also picked GE as a subcontractor for Boeing's F-15K fighters over Pratt & Whitney, until then the sole engine provider for the F-15. Some raised questions over the decision, saying that the government's choice of GE had something to do with Kwon's son, who allegedly got a job with the engine maker in 2000.

In March the bidding process in South Korea turned into a national scandal after military police arrested two South Korean Air Force colonels on charges that they took bribes from Comet International, a company acting as a local agent for Dassault, in exchange for confidential information and advice. One of the officers was arrested after telling a television news program that senior Korean military leaders pressured a committee that conducted flight evaluations of all candidate aircraft to recommend Boeing. The French claimed they had been set up.

==================================

Just what kind of FOOLS do you take us for?

Dassault was the briber, Dassault was the company that tried to steal Boeing secrets and it was Dassault that Boeing CAUGHT.

We don't have to cheat to win.

Nor do we have to lie.

Herald

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strat-T21C 6/23/2009 11:24:47 AM

Now that is a credible quote, not a guy saying " I quote"

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strat-T21C 6/23/2009 11:28:27 AM

Nothing has been signed yet .

Rufus is making some good points ("This isn't a competitive deal. They aren't even pretending to consider other planes") but this :"so France gets to sell them some overpriced fighters they don't need." , I do not understand .

The Rafale F3 with AESA comes at a good price ($72 millions) and the F4 (?) version 's price is not known at this time .

""This deal simply has nothing to do with actual requirements or capabilities""

This is simply wrong , it has everything to do with capabilities .

The UAE are not getting the Rafale to simply replace the M2000-9 fleet (while it is a good move) but to make sure to have the absolute edge on Iran . The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the M2000-9 (obviously) and the F4(?) version (without the nuclear capability) will be a formidable foe .

Duplex :

""1-SNECMA will have to invest hundresds of millions of Euros in new engines..""

False , the M88-3 wanted by the UAE has been running for ages and is ready to put into production .

Cheers .

Not true.
The M88-3 has not been "running for ages, or is it in production" I read in Janes last week that the deal is depending on Frances' being able to provide this plus a active radar. Niether of these are available at this time.

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Spiky Herald 6/23/2009 11:53:30 AM

Well, that last post of yours clears it up pretty well. Those sneaky Dassault guys. :)

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 12:07:54 PM

Herald :

""Dassault was the briber, Dassault was the company that tried to steal Boeing secrets and it was Dassault that Boeing CAUGHT.""

You are not talking about the F-15K vs Rafale deal Herald . What you are talking about is the F-X project .

I come back on it in a moment .

In my last post , I only highlighted the bits regarding the Rafale and the F-15K and the facts still stand : Rafale won the evaluation and not the F-15K .

Now , regarding the bribes versed to Colonel Cho Ju-hyung , Boeing has nothing to do and did not catch Dassault , the Korean AF did . It has to be noted that the Colonel Cho Ju-hyung seems to be defending his nation interest more than anything else :

""Cho's defense counsel said the colonel was only acting according to his conscience to highlight the misdeeds of the Defense Ministry regarding the purchase of next-generation fighters.""

In this regard , the Korean Colonel was only the voice of the Korean AF who knew that France could probably provide a better project , he paid dearly for it . He gave to Dassault some of the F-X program blueprints and the feedback was probably clear to him : Dassault could do better and cheaper .

But this is a different story .

Back to the Korean deal . The results of the Korean evaluation are still classified and even on the best French military blogs or forums , nothing has transpired . What we have is some corridor talk , during the Air to Air evaluation , the Typhoon came first (with suppositly no loss) , Rafale ended up close second (with one loss it seems) and the F-15K came third (with few losses) . During the Air to Ground evaluation , the Typhoon was rather quickly dropped from the competition , leaving only two contenders left , Rafale and F-15K . The Dassault fighter also won the AtG for apparently 3 reasons : the Korean AF liked very much the MMI , the AASM and the countermesure system .

Now regarding the price of the various package , it has been said that the Typhoon deal was the most expensive , followed by the F-15K deal and the Rafale deal being the cheapest .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 6/23/2009 12:19:20 PM

Strat :

""The M88-3 has not been "running for ages, or is it in production" I read in Janes last week that the deal is depending on Frances' being able to provide this plus a active radar. Neither of these are available at this time.""

First I said that the M88-3 is READY to put into production and not in production yet .

Secondly , the UAE will only have to wait one year for France to produce enough AESA RBE2 for their fleet . Since the UAE did not want to participate at the funding , France has decided to keep the actual roadmap .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Herald12345 Tiyb were caught just like Dassault. 6/23/2009 12:25:26 PM

Herald :

""Dassault was the briber, Dassault was the company that tried to steal Boeing secrets and it was Dassault that Boeing CAUGHT.""

You are not talking about the F-15K vs Rafale deal Herald . What you are talking about is the F-X project .

I come back on it in a moment .

In my last post , I only highlighted the bits regarding the Rafale and the F-15K and the facts still stand : Rafale won the evaluation and not the F-15K .

""Cho's defense counsel said the colonel was only acting according to his conscience to highlight the misdeeds of the Defense Ministry regarding the purchase of next-generation fighters.""

But this is a different story .

Now regarding the price of the various package , it has been said that the Typhoon deal was the most expensive , followed by the F-15K deal and the Rafale deal being the cheapest .

Cheers .

Your credibility is ZERO.

I used your own citation TO FIND THE SOURCE YOU LIFTED THAT FROM, liar, WORD FOR WORD.

Now we have two lies from you. Want to make it three?

Herald

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Rufus 6/23/2009 1:05:31 PM

"First I said that the M88-3 is READY to put into production and not in production yet ."

Then why does it require development funding?

Or an even better question, why am I asking a clueless truck driver, and a liar at that, about high performance jets?

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 6/23/2009 2:02:10 PM

Herald , my last post is very clear . We both used the same link and you are simply unable to counter my post in a decent way , so you go again personal . Just ask yourself what your credibility is with non-US posters . Or you bash , or you elude the question , or you go personal . This is not very serious don 't you think ?

Rufus :

""why am I asking a clueless truck driver""

Because the clueless truck driver knows more than you do . Then , you dare call me a liar when I use open links on the Net , fair behaviour , NOT .

""Then why does it require development funding?""

This is not "development funding" as the development of the engine has been completed , this is manufacturing funding that I am talking about . Why do I have to repeat things on and on ?

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Rufus 6/23/2009 2:21:22 PM

"Because the clueless truck driver knows more than you do . Then , you dare call me a liar when I use open links on the Net , fair behaviour , NOT ."

lol Well at least you are amusing in your own pathetic way. Nobody here is fooled by your act for even a minute bluewings. You don't even know enough to make up credible lies.

"This is not "development funding" as the development of the engine has been completed , this is manufacturing funding that I am talking about . Why do I have to repeat things on and on ?"

You need to learn when it is a waste of time to lie. Maybe this kind of routine works when you are talking to the other truck drivers at a bar, but people here don't even need ten seconds to pull up the FACTS.

"The UAE is also demanding a higher thrust version of the fighter's Snecma M88 engine to suit the hot-and-high conditions prevalent in the Middle East. A test program for the new powerplant, aimed at raising thrust to 9 metric tons from 7.5 tons currently, was announced in the run-up to last week's Paris Air Show. The main focus of the program is a new high-pressure core design that will begin running in September as part of a package of improvements, known as the Pack CGP-9T, intended to reduce M88 ownership costs for the French armed forces.

A demonstrator for the low-pressure part of the engine began testing this spring. The test program would enable the higher-power version to be available within three years of contract signature, Snecma executives say.

For the time being, the question of funding the M88 upgrade, estimated to cost 250-300 million euros, remains unresolved. So far, the French government says it has no requirement for the higher-thrust version, which means the UAE would have to pick up the tab - perhaps along with other interested customers like Kuwait, with a similar requirement. But the government had initially dragged its feet at funding the AESA, forcing industry to bear the cost of development through deferral of a six-aircraft Rafale order, only to reinstate the order last year."

h*tp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/SUBMIT062209.xml&headline=United%20Arab%20Emirates%20Closing%20in%20on%20Rafale

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 3:42:38 PM

Aviationweek is not telling you everything Rufus , far from it .

The M88-3 engine (9 to 9.5tons thrust) is running since 1994 and reached 95Kn in 1995 (14 years ago) .

Since , no less than 3 possible version of the M88-3 engines have been considered by Snecma .

Snecma is actually working on the M88-4 rated at 110Kn as a possible upgrade for the M2000 .

The problem is not technical but financial (as always in France) . You see that I 'm not lying , it is just that you do not know the problem from the inside .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Rufus 6/23/2009 4:11:54 PM

The M88-3 engine (9 to 9.5tons thrust) is running since 1994 and reached 95Kn in 1995 (14 years ago) .

Since , no less than 3 possible version of the M88-3 engines have been considered by Snecma .

Snecma is actually working on the M88-4 rated at 110Kn as a possible upgrade for the M2000 .

So basically when caught lying, your response is to just try to tell bigger and bigger lies. Back in 1994 The M88 wasn't even able to meet its specified lifespan requirements, but you think they had an up-rated variant ready to go but sitting on the shelf?

If they had a 9-ton M88 engine ready to go 14 years ago... why are they now worried about developing a new one? Why don't they just take that 100% production ready engine off the shelf and offer it to the UAE?

The problem is not technical but financial (as always in France) . You see that I 'm not lying , it is just that you do not know the problem from the inside .

Ah yes, but truck drivers "know the problem from the inside." Let me guess, when you aren't delivering a load of widgets you are working a second job designing jet engines right?

I said it before and I will now say it again. You are a liar, and it is obvious. You aren't going to fool anyone here by making up this kind of stuff.

Quote Reply

Rufus 6/23/2009 4:40:39 PM

"The M88-3 engine (9 to 9.5tons thrust) is running since 1994 and reached 95Kn in 1995 (14 years ago) ."

DATE: 22/11/95

SOURCE:Flight International

Snecma/S Korea discuss M88 for KTX-II

SNECMA IS PUSHING a derivative of its M88 engine as the power plant for installation in South Korea's KTX-II advanced jet trainer/light-fighter project, as well as pursuing an increased power variant for a re-engine version of the French Dassault Mirage 2000.

The M88 is a 50kN dry-80kN with reheat (11,000-18,000lb)-class turbofan whose only application is the Dassault Rafale, but Snecma chairman Bernard Dufour says that it is "just the start of a family of engines".

The company is already in talks with South Korea to offer the M88-2K, based on a proposed non-after-burning variant of the M88, the 50kN M88-2S.

Alongside projecting a family of "dry" M88s, Snecma is also looking at developing the 110kN M884. This project is at the preliminary design stage, but is aimed at eventually replacing the M53K in the Mirage 2000.

Dufour says that Snecma has begun studies into the eventual re-engineing of the Mirage 2000-5, whose single M53 engine would be replaced by an M88. The company is already looking at up-rated versions of the M88 for projected higher-weight versions of the Rafale - the M88-3 with a thrust of 90kN, and the M88-4 with 110kN - and he sees these as being suitable for the Mirage 2000.

"I don't see why the [re-engined] Mirage 2000 should not be in production in ten years' time - the delta plan form still seems to be the best, and there's nothing very new in airframes," Dufour says.

The French company, has already proposed the engine to Saab, as a potential replacement for the Volvo Aero Engines RM-12 (General Electric F-404) in the JAS39 Gripen, but Dufour says, that the marketing tie-up between Saab and British Aerospace for the Gripen has "diminished" the chances of such a substitution being made.

He holds out more hope of his company selling the M88 - possibly in a non-after-burning "S" or "dry" form to South Korea.

link

==============================================================

So basically "looking at" designing an engine is the same thing as having an actual "running" engine huh?

Now, are you going to admit you are wrong, or just lie some more?

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Bluewings12 6/23/2009 5:07:10 PM

Rufus , for the Xth time I am not lying . Check what I said about the M88 family and what you found on the Net , it is EXACTLY the same for God sake !

Yes Snecma started to design the M88-4 in 1995 (I was right) as a 110kn engine (I was right) for the M2000 (I was right) and the M88-3 was already on the bench (I was right) . That was in 1995 , 14 years ago .

Where is your problem ?

We are now 14 years later and the M88-3 is working as intended , thank you . As I explained before , the problem is with the manufacturing funding . France and Snecma will not start the production before 2011 .

Any other questions ?

Cheers .

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