usajoe 's view on the Rafale

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usajoe1 6/18/2009 11:22:22 PM

If the enemy is in between your 3 and 9 O 'clock , the HMS is useless . If your fighter can ' t turn inside the enemy , the HMS is useless . To turn inside the enemy , you need to have the best instantaneous turn rate and an above average sustained turn rate to proof your aiming . At this game , the Rafale is all over the SH .

Since the SH can 't turn 9gs without loosing sh*t loads of energy , the HMS is useless .

Sorry to say .

Would you stop your nonsense. The HMS gives the pilot of any fighter a much better chance in WVR fights, that is a Fact, and is not debatable. Ask any pilot, in any other Air Force, if they had a choice to have HMS or not which they will choose. I will bet you my house that every single one of them will take it. It is a life savior, trust me. Now as far as the Rafale being all over the SH, that is a big joke, that little video did not prove anything. You saying the HMS is useless is so ridicules that I do not think there is a single poster here that did not get a good laugh from reading this BS.

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mustang22 6/19/2009 5:45:05 PM

USAJOE,

Of course the HMS is not useless, but it would seem that there is some truth to what he is saying about the turn rate and not being able to take advantage of the HMS. I would like someone a lot more technically qualified then myself to clear this up with actual facts. I would hope the SH is up to the task, the Navy sure hopes it is as well.

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french stratege 6/19/2009 6:28:35 PM

And the F22 has no HMS

In fact with electronic scan radar you can fire a missile 60° off boresight without an HMS.Even more with a IR tracker like OSF.

Now , is the +60° to +90° a likely scenario considering loss of energy?

HMS is a "nice to have", but especially for air to ground missions now.

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usajoe1 6/19/2009 7:02:22 PM

USAJOE,

I know exactly why BW is calling the HMS useless, because his love child, the Rafale does not use it. It's as simple as that. Now as far as the HMS being 100% perfect, I did not say that, but what it is, is a game changer in WVR combat, that is a undisputed fact.

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Herald12345 Ascerbic comment. 6/19/2009 7:14:23 PM

USAJOE,

Look and learn.

Those two prevaricaors, FS and BW need to ne silent, when it comes to the SH and the RAFALEpecifically and aircraft in general. The SH has the better alpha, the better point, and the better engagement FoV hemi-arc by a factor of 2x.

Add a far superior radar, definitely vastly superior rockets, and CMs that actually work like Spactra doesn't, and what have you got? SH is in the running for the IAF fighter contract against superb fighters, like Typhoon, and the RAFALE is in reality on the sidelines-rejected..

Don't take those two 'gentlemen's' words for anything. They don't know. What they do instead is "invent"; that is tell falsehoods and hope you swallow the lies.

Herald

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Bluewings12 6/19/2009 8:54:10 PM

StevoJH :

""To put it quite bluntly the Eurofighter consortium and the US developers of the SH's AESA have had more money to spend on their radar then Dassault and Thales had to spend on the radar for the Rafale. Money talks.""

I agree with the sentence but money is not everything . Where is the AESA "Captor" ?

Since the Eurofighter consortium supposed to have the money , I ask again where is the AESA Captor ?

The Thalès AESA RBE2 is there . So it seems that money is not the main factor ...

usajoe :

""Would you stop your nonsense. The HMS gives the pilot of any fighter a much better chance in WVR fights, that is a Fact, and is not debatable.""

I never said otherwise Joe , the HMS is a bonus well worth it but it is not a magical item . As I explained to you , the HMS can only be used in a 180degree forward cone (for the best HMS) and to be able to use it , you must first put yourself in the right conditions or you can try a "shoot from the hip" during the first crossing . Of course , it is highly desirable to have the capability but as the video is showing you , when you know how to maneuver the HMS can 't be used . Then , it is good that some of the SH has HMS because the jet is not a good dogfighter .

""Now as far as the Rafale being all over the SH, that is a big joke, that little video did not prove anything""

It proves that Rafale is all over the SH in dogfight but this has been known for ages .

***********

More importantly , Herald is one more time hurt and like a wounded animal , he goes berserk and talking non sense to try to survive .

""The SH has the better alpha, the better point, and the better engagement FoV hemi-arc by a factor of 2x.

Add a far superior radar, definitely vastly superior rockets, and CMs that actually work like Spactra doesn't""

The knowledgeable posters have spotted the various mistakes in this sentence .

-1) "better alpha" . Rafale during testing reached 100 deg with a negative speed (!) with complete control . Then , it can "plunge" a la M2000 and the SH simply can 't .

-2) "better engagement FoV hemi-arc by a factor of 2x." Wrong against the Pesa RBE2 and utter BS against the AESA RBE2 .

-3) "Add a far superior radar" . We now have the parity and a lowest RCS .

-4) "definitely vastly superior rockets" . Utter BS , as I said before Herald is fighting a lost cause as he can 't back up his claim . Mica is a killer .

-5) "and CMs that actually work like Spectra doesn't" . You do not know what you are talking about Herald , I (and others) know far more than you do about the French ECMs and you shouldn 't talk the way you do , you look ridiculous .

Spectra (and ICMS MkIII) are the best ECM/ECCM systems Worlwide .

""Don't take those two 'gentlemen's' words for anything. They don't know. What they do instead is "invent"; that is tell falsehoods and hope you swallow the lies.""

What falsehoods , what lies ??? If I was a "Proc substitute" , I would ask for the Defense to stop arguying with empty words and bring some proof forwards because nothing presented yet is receivable .

The fact that Rafale has much better aerodynamics and thrust than the SH has been known for ages . Nonetheless , the SH is still a deadly opponent and a powerfull striker . The SH can deal with any Russian (or Chinese) fighter with less ease than the Rafale , but it can , it has been built for . It is lacking in some areas but nobody 's perfect .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 6/19/2009 9:14:35 PM

usajoe :

""Now as far as the Rafale being all over the SH, that is a big joke, that little video did not prove anything""

(me) -->It proves that Rafale is all over the SH in dogfight but this has been known for ages .""

Joe , a M2000-5F is already all over the Super Hornet in dogfight and with a safe margin .

Cheers .

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usajoe1 6/19/2009 10:22:40 PM

StevoJH :

I agree with the sentence but money is not everything . Where is the AESA "Captor" ?

Since the Eurofighter consortium supposed to have the money , I ask again where is the AESA Captor ?

The Thalès AESA RBE2 is there . So it seems that money is not the main factor ...

The Captor E is where The RBE2 is, non operational.

usajoe :

""Would you stop your nonsense. The HMS gives the pilot of any fighter a much better chance in WVR fights, that is a Fact, and is not debatable.""

The HMS is there because the SH is not a good dogfighter? LOL! The HMS is there to give the SH, and for that matter, SU-27/30/35, Mig 29/35, Typhoon, F16/15, more of an edge in WVR combat. Now tell me are all those air craft bad dogfighters, because every single customer that is in the market to buy any one of those fighters wants the HMS. The F-35 is not even going to have a HUD, becasue of the advantage of the newer HMS being developed for that bird.

""Now as far as the Rafale being all over the SH, that is a big joke, that little video did not prove anything""

It proves that Rafale is all over the SH in dogfight but this has been known for ages .

Yah in your imaginary world. There is no offical proof of your misguided assumption.

More importantly , Herald is one more time hurt and like a wounded animal , he goes berserk and talking non sense to try to survive .

""The SH has the better alpha, the better point, and the better engagement FoV hemi-arc by a factor of 2x.

Add a far superior radar, definitely vastly superior rockets, and CMs that actually work like Spactra doesn't""

The knowledgeable posters have spotted the various mistakes in this sentence .

-1) "better alpha" . Rafale during testing reached 100 deg with a negative speed (!) with complete control . Then , it can "plunge" a la M2000 and the SH simply can 't .

What knowledgeable posters?

-2) "better engagement FoV hemi-arc by a factor of 2x." Wrong against the Pesa RBE2 and utter BS against the AESA RBE2 .

What AESA RBE2, it's not operational, and the current RBE2 is the worst radar of any 4+ genaration fighter.

-3) "Add a far superior radar" . We now have the parity and a lowest RCS .

Stop it with the low RCS, that argument is getting very old, and yes the SH radar is much more powerful than the current Rafale one.

-4) "definitely vastly superior rockets" . Utter BS , as I said before Herald is fighting a lost cause as he can 't back up his claim . Mica is a killer .

No it is not utter bs, the Mica is not the best. Where is the proof that says the Mica outperfoms the latest Russian and American AAM's? Never mind I will answer the question, no where!

Spectra (and ICMS MkIII) are the best ECM/ECCM systems Worlwide .

Another one of your fabricated lies. The Block two SH has the best ECM suite of any 4+ generation fighter out there, the AN/ALQ-214 along with AN/ALE-55 TD, ALE-47 CFD, combined with the best radar on any 4th gen. fighter, the AN/APG-79 AESA, and the new versions of the AIM-120, AIM-9 and HMS, give the SH a survival rate that is almost as good as the Raptor. There is no 4th gen. bird that comes close at the moment. Yes it is that good.

""Don't take those two 'gentlemen's' words for anything. They don't know. What they do instead is "invent"; that is tell falsehoods and hope you swallow the lies.""

It can deal with any threat out there including the Rafale. The Rafale does not even represent the greatest challange to the SH. The new Sukhois and the Typhoon present a graver challenge.

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warpig 6/19/2009 11:08:21 PM

Of course , it is highly desirable to have the capability but as the video is showing you , when you know how to maneuver the HMS can 't be used .

The knowledgeable posters have spotted the various mistakes in this sentence .

-1) "better alpha" . Rafale during testing reached 100 deg with a negative speed (!) with complete control . Then , it can "plunge" a la M2000 and the SH simply can 't .

-2) "better engagement FoV hemi-arc by a factor of 2x." Wrong against the Pesa RBE2 and utter BS against the AESA RBE2 .

-3) "Add a far superior radar" . We now have the parity and a lowest RCS .

-4) "definitely vastly superior rockets" . Utter BS , as I said before Herald is fighting a lost cause as he can 't back up his claim . Mica is a killer .

Spectra (and ICMS MkIII) are the best ECM/ECCM systems Worlwide .

Sure, when you start out defensive an HMS may very well not be enough to save you. Against an aircraft that can maneuver better than you, it probably won't save you even in some situations where you start at a slight advantage. F-22 doesn't have it yet because it's the jet least likely to need one, and so we've been putting them in lesser jets first.

I won't get into 2) -5) because about all I could do is tell you you're wrong in some of them, which has been shown over the last 5 years to have no effect on you, as you are oblivious to anything other than reporting from French sources--except to cite some quote from some non-French fanzine or personage if it appears to be favorable to Rafale or other French tech, or deteracts from some American tech. However, on 1) you're citing a virtually meaningless stat. At any sort of combat speeds, like say 300kts+, Rafale can't pull anywhere close to 100degrees AOA, but then neither can any other aircraft to my knowledge. I would guess the limit at actual combat speeds is much closer to somewhere around 30degrees AOA.

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Das Kardinal 6/21/2009 12:16:07 AM

More food for thought :

link

An article on Rafale's UAE requirements and future developments. Unfortunately I couldn't copy and paste the contents, but it's an interesting read.

Anyway, it seems that nobody commented on Rafale's allegedly superior sensor fusion and MMI

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Das Kardinal 6/21/2009 2:08:13 AM

Good thing, I found the text of the article on another forum. Here it is so you don't have to browse several pages :

SHOWNEWS
PARIS 2009
Rafale: Development and New Configurations
Dassault Aviation is famous for revealing nothing in the way of details about the configuration and development of export variants of its fighter aircraft before a contract with a customer has actually been signed. For example, very little about the Mirage 2000-9 variant that was sold to the United Arab Emirates emerged until after the negotiations were complete and the contract concluded by both sides.
This continues to be the rule for sales to all export customers in general and the UAE in particular. When Dassault CEO Charles Edelstenne was asked last Friday at his traditional pre-Le Bourget press conference if the company had received a complete technical and performance requirement for a Rafale for the UAE, he replied simply, "Yes." When subsequently asked if he could share any of those details with the press, he answered just as brusquely, "No."
However, Edelstenne did discuss the future development path of the Rafale that would be offered to any and all customers. Also, other French industry sources have spoken off the record on plans that are in the works for specific markets.
What emerges is a clear picture of an aircraft program that was once thought of as not having much of a future, instead having a systematic, long-term growth plan. In an almost tortoise-vs-hare type of progress, the Rafale seems to be overtaking its competition in the development of the aircraft's combat capability.
The aircraft has several developments taking place in parallel that will eventually converge in a next-generation export variant. Avionics: The F3 avionics standard was introduced last year on schedule, and Edelstenne said that "I would simply remind you that the F3 standard is that which makes the aircraft fully 'omnirole,' in particular enabling it to carry the Reco-NG pod [the Pod de Reconnaissance Nouvelle Generation] and the Exocet AM 39. We are continuing to work on the road map to increase the Rafale's reconnaissance, detection
Rafale has been quietly, relentlessly gaining on more celebrated competitors.
and identification capability. We are well ahead of our non-American competitors, and qualification of the entire post-F3 standard is scheduled for 2011."
"Yes."
- Dassault CEO Charles Edelstenne
Radar: The Thales RBE2 Active Array is on track, and "the various modes were recently validated during testing, and pre-series production has begun, with series production to be launched shortly." When asked about whether or not the RBE2 Active Array would be in production in a timeframe to suit the technical requirements of the Indian M-MRCA fighter tender, Edelstenne responded, "I think the India contract will not be the soonest one signed. The active radar will be series production by 2012 — and I do not think we will be delivering active radars to India by 2012. Other countries will come first." Other Sensors: "We are expecting qualification of the Damocles pod at the end of the year, in line with the F3+AGL standard, which will give the Rafale an independent laser-guided weapons capability. The first production Reco-NG pod will be delivered to the armed forces this summer, for qualification and operational service entry at the end of the year. This pod is the only one in die
world that has two sensors (an infrared sensor for very low altitude/ high-speed and a visible light, near and far infrared sensor for high and medium altitude).
"All of these innovations will be available for export," said Edelstenne. "I can already reveal that the deon-strations conducted on the new [Thales] radar with some potential customers have proved more than conclusive."
ii
No."
- Dassault CEO Charles Edelstenne
Beyond these improvements discussed by Edelstenne, there have been multiple reports of the UAE considering funding the development of a nine-ton thrust variant of the Rafale's SNECMA M88-3 jet engine. There is no guarantee that the UAE's MoD will foot the bill for this improvement to the aircraft, but if previous experience with the Emirates deciding to bankroll development of both the Mirage 2000-9 and Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block 60 are any indicator, it would be out of character for them to decline.
A Rafale powered by this type of engine would be a significant improvement to the aircraft and would allow it to perform combat missions for which some of Dassault's customers have a requirement. It
could also be offered to other export customers besides the UAE who are looking at a Rafale purchase.
The new engine would not be available in time for the F-X2 fighter tender in Brazil that is to be decided by late summer of this year, but Kuwait, India and others are all potential markets for the higher-power motor. The chief reason for the UAE wanting the extra thrust is because of the weapons loadings that it has planned for a Rafale in its service.
Dassault and other industry partners will not comment on specifics, but they do state that "if you look at both the Rafales on static display and some of the models on the Dassault stand, you will see combat loadings that are not required by the French armed forces."
Most notable among these is a proposed configuration that would have the Rafale fitted with three of the MBDA SCALP EG/Storm Shadow cruise missiles. The Mirage 2000-9s flown by the UAE Air Force can carry only one piece of this ordnance, so the higher-thrust Rafale would give the Emirates three times the long-range strike power. The UAE Rafales would also be fitted with the MBDA Meteor air-to-air missile.
Despite the many improvements now set for the aircraft, there are no plans to market the Rafale in South Korea or Japan for their fifth-generation fighter competitions. India remains the one Asian nation that — in the eyes of French industry— has not completely committed itself to the U.S. or Russia as a supplier, but most other Asian customers are not seen as potential market. Previous losses in competitions in South Korea and Singapore have convinced more than one French industry official that the Rafale's "market remains those nations who either cannot or do not want to purchase a U.S. aircraft [Brazil may be in this category], or nations [like the UAE| that have decided to maintain a mixed inventory of U.S. and non-U.S. aircraft in order to diversify their supplier base." —Reuben F. Johnson
42 June 16. 2009 www.aviationweek.com/shownews

Aside from this, it seems (from recurring pilot comments) that Rafale does beat the SH in WVR dogfight rather easily, losing less energy in maneuvers. OTOH the subtext is, in BVR the SH is not as helpless (which is easy to believe, thanks to its advanced radar and good missiles).

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Dingc 6/21/2009 2:57:54 AM

Here we go again:

First, the Rafale isn't a bad aircraft. However, some here make the plane out as something it isn't:

Example 1: "The SH is not even a question, it is better then the Rafale in every single aspect."

Example 2: "It seems that Rafale can beat the HMS when the thing is mounted on a poor dogfighter (on the SH)." and "At this game , the Rafale is all over the SH. Since the SH can 't turn 9gs without loosing sh*t loads of energy , the HMS is useless." and "It proves that Rafale is all over the SH in dogfight but this has been known for ages." and "The fact that Rafale has much better aerodynamics and thrust than the SH has been known for ages ." and "It is lacking in some areas but nobody 's perfect." and "Joe , a M2000-5F is already all over the Super Hornet in dogfight and with a safe margin."

Example 3: "A discreet Rafale loaded as an Interceptor (one central stealth fuel tank and 8 Micas) will have the edge on any existing fighter bare the F-22 and this is all we need ."

There you go again... the Rafale isn't a stealth plane. Unless there is new technology that allows fuel tanks to give overall RCS advantages? Face it, it's going to be even with most existing fighters.

Example 4: "It would be nice if some posters would stop the BS about the Mica . The missile had a 99% kill ratio in testing , a 98% kill ratio (virtual) during various NATO excercises and is probabbly deadlier than any other missile in distances between 500m and 80km . It comes in two versions , EM and IR and you just need to swap seekers ."

No missile has a 98%-99% kill ratio in the real world. If this is the numbers the French are using doing exercises I would question the point of doing those exercises. I think you're the one posting the BS!

Example 5: "there is nothing on the Net going OFFICIALY against the Mica ."

That doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws... if it had a 98% kill rate you would have a huge line of countries wanting to buy it!

Example 6: "It did not have the Damoclès pod and had to rely on a M2000 for targetting , so what ?"

This is completely inexcusable! A targeting pod should be an absolute requirement for a 4th gen aircraft. That should not be minimized! LGB are an absolute necessity in modern war. The Rafale lacks air-to-ground munitions. This is another serious problem with the aircraft.

Example 7: "Spectra (and ICMS MkIII) are the best ECM/ECCM systems Worlwide."

I doubt the French military says this! No one talks about ECM/ECCM capabilities, they just smile and say ours is capable of handling many threats! Besides, I would still give it to the EA-18G! I cannot back it up with any numbers though. Neither can you, unless you're sharing classified data which I'm sure violates quite a few laws!

Example 8: "Is it because you don 't know about the latest version of the plane , is it because you simply discard the French radars and missiles , is it because you believe that the Russians have something better , is it because you simply hate me ?"

I don't think anyone doubts the effectiveness of French missiles or radar. It's that this argument always goes to "mine is better! The MICA beats the AIM-120D and AIM-9X hands down because the French add a *insert random technical word here* to each MICA and the AIM-120D and AIM-9X doesn't have this! The French AESA has been shown that it could track the movement of stars in the last Red Flag, the US radars have never shown this kind of capability! Obviously the French radars are better!"

So, in conclusion:

Example 9: "It does the job so far and better than any other European Aircraft."

Oops, wrong conclusion! It's a decent plane, but no way better or worse than other European aircraft. An upgraded F-16 would be a serious challenge to it. Whether you agree with that or not, it's the truth. There's nothing in a Rafale/MICA/Spectra/RBE2 that makes it much more deadly than a F-16/AIM-120-AIM-9X/AN/ALQ-184/AN/APG-68 combination.

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usajoe1 6/21/2009 3:27:09 AM

We are well ahead of our non-American competitors, and qualification of the entire post-F3 standard is scheduled for 2011."
That is a blatant lie!

When asked about whether or not the RBE2 Active Array would be in production in a timeframe to suit the technical requirements of the Indian M-MRCA fighter tender, Edelstenne responded, "I think the India contract will not be the soonest one signed.

That is another way of saying the Indian contract will not be signed.

Despite the many improvements now set for the aircraft, there are no plans to market the Rafale in South Korea or Japan for their fifth-generation fighter competitions.

Yah, because the Rafale is not a 5th gen. fighter.

but most other Asian customers are not seen as potential market.

Because they don't want a second rate fighter that cost an arm and a leg.

Previous losses in competitions in South Korea and Singapore have convinced more than one French industry official that the Rafale's "market remains those nations who either cannot or do not want to purchase a U.S. aircraft [Brazil may be in this category], or nations [like the UAE| that have decided to maintain a mixed inventory of U.S. and non-U.S. aircraft in order to diversify their supplier base

Basically the only way the Rafale is going to be exported is by a politcal deal like UAE, because every real fighter competition it has been in has turned out to be an utter defeat for the bird.

Aside from this, it seems (from recurring pilot comments) that Rafale does beat the SH in WVR dogfight rather easily, losing less energy in maneuvers.

Where do people get this utter nonsense? Stop posting such fabricated lies, it is not funny.

OTOH the subtext is, in BVR the SH is not as helpless (which is easy to believe, thanks to its advanced radar and good missiles).

Not as helpless? Wow! I think you need to put down the bottle my friend and sober up, because there is no way a sober person could of made that comment.

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Herald12345 Qyestion for the two prevaricaotors. 6/21/2009 3:33:49 AM

Especially the truck driver........Why did that AIM 9X perform an over the shoulder track back against the QF-4 Phantom if the SH was such an inferior plane as you describe it, and where is the proof that the RAFALE even can do the same feat?

Answer....I show the facts un evidence and you lie about them. Simple as Occam isn't it?

Now be prudent and be careful about things you do not know and which I DO...

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Rufus 6/21/2009 5:05:21 AM

All of this stupidity about a Rafale out maneuvering a SH with a helmet mounted sight would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

Modern fighters with helmet mounted sights DO NOT DOGFIGHT in any conventional sense. The fight is simply over too quickly, usually before the merge. If both aircraft see each other, one or both can both take a high Pk shot before the merge. If one fighter is unaware of the other of course the game is over before it has started. If for some reason they do reach the merge, both aircraft can expect to take a high Pk shot well before their first turn is completed. (see diagrams in the video Herald posted) Even if the Rafale had some meaningful maneuverability advantage, which would depend on the flight regime the two planes were operating in and their loadout, it just wouldn't matter. Incremental improvements in maneuverability no longer result in meaningful improvements in combat effectiveness.

Even a third generation jet with a modern helmet mounted sight and a HOB missile is going to be very very dangerous WVR.

Here is an analogy that is hopefully within reach of bluewings:

Back in the late 1950s and early 1960s the Soviets began work on a next generation attack submarine. They specified an extremely fast and extremely agile submarine, a true wolf of the seas. This effort is what ultimately produced the well known Alfa class.

The Alfas were officially the world's fastest and deepest diving submarines, by a significant margin. Not only that, but they also had exceptional maneuverability and acceleration. In short, the designers met their design goals. (Although reliability was supposed to have been poor.)

Even so, the design, and its entire concept of operations, proved to be a complete failure. The problem was that the designers simply targetted the wrong attributes of the design to optimize. The Alfa was LOUD. It was very very fast and could dive very very deep, but it was always very very loud. If the sub had been in service in the 1950s when its design program began it would have been exceptionally dangerous. ASW wasn't nearly as advanced, the torpedos of the day would likely have been ineffective against it, and US submarines had not yet become the ASW platforms they would become.

But by the time the Alfa actually entered service it was already becoming obsolete. Why? Did the US build an even faster and even deeper diving sub? No!

The US built quiet submarines, and newer generations of torpedos, including better air-dropped weapons.

Being that fast and maneuverable would make a submarine very very hard to kill for a WWII destroyer equipped primarily with depth charges, etc. But being fast and maneuverable doesn't help you much if your opponent can detect you long before you can detect him, and start dropping torpedos on you from aircraft all day long until one of them does the job. 40 knots is fast for a ship, but it is nothing for a helicopter. The same problem applied for the Alfa when dealing with US submarines. The Alfa was a blind Gazelle. What good does it do to be fast and maneuverable if you can't see the threat before it is almost on top of you but he can see you miles away?

The future of submarines was in extreme stealth, and advanced torpedos. Of course this is obvious today, but it clearly wasn't that obvious to the Soviets back when they were designing the Alfa.

In case it is not yet obvious where I am going with this analogy, the same thing applies to fighter aircraft. The days when a fighter could gain a meaningful advantage through marginally improved maneuverability or speed have past. Future air combat will be dominated by sensors, stealth, and advanced missiles. Why do you think the Russians ended up scrapping their Soviet-era 5th generations designs based around super-maneuverability? They realized that once again they were late to recognize the direction the future was taking.

The Rafale is a fine 4th generation jet, but that is a lot like being a fine battleship in the 1940s. It is among the best 4th generation jets ever built. (although certainly not THE best) but as is so often the case it has arrived on the scene just in time to see the whole game change.

Below is a post from another thread. I have included it because it is relevant, but it is a repeat.

The days when a marginally more maneuverable aircraft had a meaningful advantage in aerial combat are long gone. Close turning "dogfights" were a product of aircraft fighting with weapons that were really only effective when employed within relatively restrictive engagement parameters. It took a lot of work to line up a decent Pk shot against an opponent who was trying to do the same to you.

Modern jets' maneuverability is already limited primarily by what their pilot can withstand and modern weapon systems have extremely large effective engagement zones. Marginal improvements at the very fringe of the flight envelope just don't mean much anymore when few fights will ever reach the merge, and if they do, will likely result in a mutual kill within seconds. (and let me be clear, the F-35 is a VERY maneuverable jet)

Helmet mounted sights and HOB missiles take the fun out of "dogfighting." Go read some interviews of pilots who have actually used helmet mounted sights and see what they have to say about "dogfighting." Assuming you are talking about two high-end jets with helmet mounted sights you will have a mutual kill almost instantly. In most cases you can take a high Pk shot well before the merge, if for some reason you don't, you can expect to take a shot before you have completed your first turn. With the F-35's DAS system it is debatable whether the aircraft would even bother to turn in a WVR fight. Why turn the whole aircraft at ~9Gs when you can just fire a missile that is going to be able to turn at 50+ Gs?

While I am on the subject, the questions raised by fanboys about the F-35's maneuverability are similar to the questions raised about its speed.

I will spell it out for you, The F-35 is fast. It is very fast.

I am not talking about some glossy brochure listing a theoretical top speed under pefect conditions. I am talking about a combat loaded aircraft under real world conditions. Under those conditions the F-35 is a stellar performer.

It has exceptional acceleration in the parts of the flight envelope that modern aircraft actually operate in. Its absolute top speed is lower than that of many 4th generation aircraft, but unlike those aircraft it can actually achieve its top speed carrying a combat load, while they will never come close to their top speed. (Even when flying a lightly loaded jet that could achieve M1.5+, actually doing so would waste so much fuel you would be on your way home before you could do anything useful.)

The F-35 improves performance where improved performance is needed. With a combat load it is just as maneuverable and a fair bit faster than most 4th generation types, but the F-35 also has stealth, the world's most capable sensors, computers, interfaces, datalinks, and EW capabilities.

Talking about out maneuvering an F-35 just shows you are still thinking with a knife-fight mentality in a gun-fight age.

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