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Subject: usajoe 's view on the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/18/2009 12:48:33 AM
I quote him : ""Listen carefully to what I have to say and don't put words in my mouth. I never said the Rafale can't deal with Pakistan's air threat, there you go again with your selective thinking. As for China, the Rafale can't deal with the newer Chinese Sukhois in BVR or WVR combat. BVR The Sukhoi has a more powerful radar and better A2A missiles. WVR combat the Sukhoi has a huge advantage with the HMS and the R-73. This was pointed out many times over. As for the Mig 35, India already has similar fighters and it would not have that much of a trouble converting to the Mig. Plus you can by two Migs for the price of one Rafale, and have about the same kind of capabilities. The SH is not even a question, it is better then the Rafale in every single aspect. That is why there is 0% chance of the Rafale winning the competition. I will not be shocked if the Rafale is the the first fighter to be thrown out of the competition. Look the Rafale might be ok for France's needes, but most countries do not want a fighter that costs almost 100 million dollars and gets outclassed by most 4th genaration aircraft in BVR and WVR role. The Rafale might be better in EW, survivability and a better deep strike bird than most Russian fighters but that is not what most countries want. If they pay that kind of money they want the A2A capabilities to. That is why the Rafale is in this predicament and the Typhoon, SH, Sukhoi, and even the Gripen are where they are, as far as exports are concerned. Now as far as the name calling is concerned, I already told you what I think about that, only cowards talk trash when they are thousands of miles away, grow up! You know BW the diffrence between me and you is i'm not a homer like you. If you go back and look at other posts you would see that I have defended the French Navy, when 5th guards and me were going at it, and also defended the leclerc tank when people were bashing it, but when it comes to French tech. you start posting blindly, and that is why every one gets on you. If the French had made the Typhoon and the Brits and Germans the Rafale, I would be saying the same thing about the British and Germans and would give the French their dues."" Cheers .
 
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usajoe1       6/18/2009 9:34:29 PM
This is not news . All the French Pilots from the 12-F Squadron onboard CdG said the same , during dogfight the SH is a underpowered dog compare to the Rafale . I did notice the part about the combo JHMS/Aim-9X not cutting the mustard if the opponent is doing the right stuff . I also read similar report from other Pilots incuding Typhoon RAF Pilots going against SHs .
When you talk to a pilot , the HMS is only usable few seconds per turn if you got the upper hand . In most case , your opponent is turning as tight as you do or even better and you have better things to do than trying to keep your eyes on the target at all time (you can 't) to try to fire a IR missile off-bore at 60deg when the enemy is going to be in your six in matter of seconds . If you get the advantage for 2 or 3 seconds , use the HMS as it is faster than using the missile IR seeker .
This is what an HMS is made for .
 
It seems that Rafale can beat the HMS when the thing is mounted on a poor dogfighter .
 
No, the HMS is made for a very simple reason. It is made so that you do not have to align the nose of your fighter with to that of the enemies. It is a big diffrence in a WVR fight, and that is why every export jet offers this capability, from the Sukhois to the SH, to the Migs and the 15/16's. Again we are back to why the Rafale was rushed and why it has no foreign sales. The bird was made for France, and the rest of the world does not have the same capabilites or defense requiremnts in mind. From the Radar, to the HMS, to the engines, and the cost and so on.

 
 
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 9:51:44 PM
Don 't run away usajoe , dust yourself off and come back .
 
""It is made so that you do not have to align the nose of your fighter with to that of the enemies.""
 
If the enemy is in between your 3 and 9 O 'clock , the HMS is useless . If your fighter can ' t turn inside the enemy , the HMS is useless . To turn inside the enemy , you need to have the best instantaneous turn rate and an above average sustained turn rate to proof your aiming . At this game , the Rafale is all over the SH .
Since the SH can 't turn 9gs without loosing sh*t loads of energy , the HMS is useless . 
Sorry to say .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 10:06:46 PM
usajoe , the Rafale encounter with the SH from the Roosevelt is on video for all to see :
 
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/Mermoz29/video/x6bnpq_rafale-vs-superhornet_sport
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 10:22:45 PM
The night fight (green thermal imaging) in the video shows a Rafale going after another Rafale , not an easy task when you check the roll rate and the Gs ...
 
Cheers .
 
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StevoJH       6/18/2009 11:21:16 PM
I'm just going make a point, this is entirely my own opinion and may be wrong, however i have this one thing to say. No one has ever said that that the engineer's of any particular country whether it be the UK, Germany and Italy with the Typhoon, France with the Rafale, Sweden with the Gripen or the US with the SH and F22 are better then those of any other country.
 
However everyone must agree that the differences between the aircraft involved are due to two factors. 1) the requirements of the originating country, and 2) the development budget. To put it quite bluntly the Eurofighter consortium and the US developers of the SH's AESA have had more money to spend on their radar then Dassault and Thales had to spend on the radar for the Rafale. Money talks.
 
Stephen.
 
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usajoe1       6/18/2009 11:22:22 PM
If the enemy is in between your 3 and 9 O 'clock , the HMS is useless . If your fighter can ' t turn inside the enemy , the HMS is useless . To turn inside the enemy , you need to have the best instantaneous turn rate and an above average sustained turn rate to proof your aiming . At this game , the Rafale is all over the SH .
Since the SH can 't turn 9gs without loosing sh*t loads of energy , the HMS is useless . 
Sorry to say .
Would you stop your nonsense. The HMS gives the pilot of any fighter a much better chance in WVR fights, that is a Fact,  and is not debatable. Ask any pilot, in any other Air Force, if they had a choice to have HMS or not which they will choose. I will bet you my house that every single one of them will take it. It is a life savior, trust me. Now as far as the Rafale being all over the SH, that is a big joke, that little video did not prove anything. You saying the HMS is useless is so ridicules that I do not think there is a single poster here that did not get a good laugh from reading this BS.
 
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mustang22       6/19/2009 5:45:05 PM
USAJOE,
 
Of course the HMS is not useless, but it would seem that there is some truth to what he is saying about the turn rate and not being able to take advantage of the HMS. I would like someone a lot more technically qualified then myself to clear this up with actual facts. I would hope the SH is up to the task, the Navy sure hopes it is as well.
 
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french stratege       6/19/2009 6:28:35 PM
And the F22 has no HMS
In fact with electronic scan radar you can fire a missile 60° off boresight without an HMS.Even more with a IR tracker like OSF.
Now , is the +60° to +90° a likely scenario considering loss of energy?
HMS is a "nice to have", but especially for air to ground missions now.
 
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usajoe1       6/19/2009 7:02:22 PM
 
USAJOE,
 
Of course the HMS is not useless, but it would seem that there is some truth to what he is saying about the turn rate and not being able to take advantage of the HMS. I would like someone a lot more technically qualified then myself to clear this up with actual facts. I would hope the SH is up to the task, the Navy sure hopes it is as well.
I know exactly why BW is calling the HMS useless, because his love child, the Rafale does not use it. It's as simple as that. Now as far as the HMS being 100% perfect, I did not say that, but what it is, is a game changer in WVR combat, that is a undisputed fact.
 
 
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Herald12345    Ascerbic comment.   6/19/2009 7:14:23 PM

USAJOE,

 

Of course the HMS is not useless, but it would seem that there is some truth to what he is saying about the turn rate and not being able to take advantage of the HMS. I would like someone a lot more technically qualified then myself to clear this up with actual facts. I would hope the SH is up to the task, the Navy sure hopes it is as well.

Look and learn.
 
 
 
Those two prevaricaors, FS and BW need to ne silent, when it comes to the SH and the RAFALEpecifically and aircraft in general. The SH has the better alpha, the better point, and the better engagement FoV hemi-arc by a factor of 2x.
 
Add a far superior radar, definitely vastly superior rockets, and CMs that actually work like Spactra doesn't, and what have you got? SH is in the running for the IAF fighter contract against superb fighters, like Typhoon, and the RAFALE is in reality on the sidelines-rejected..
 
Don't take those two 'gentlemen's' words for anything. They don't know. What they do instead  is "invent"; that is tell falsehoods and hope you swallow the lies.
   
Herald
 
 
 
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