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Subject: House Approves 12 more F-22's
mustang22    6/17/2009 11:24:53 PM
F-22 Funds Approved in Wee-Hours Vote By william matthews Published: 17 Jun 2009 17:04 Print Print | Print Email It hasn't flown in combat yet, but the F-22 stealth fighter prevailed in a life-or-death battle in an early-morning vote June 17 by the House Armed Services Committee. A vote early June 17 by the U.S. House Armed Services Committee means that the Pentagon will pay for work to begin in 12 more F-22 jets, even though Defense Secretary Robert Gates wants the program to end. (SENIOR AIRMAN ZACHARY WOLF / U.S. AIR FORCE) After more than 16 hours of squabbling over the 2010 defense budget, weary committee members voted 31-30 at 2:30 a.m. to keep the F-22 program alive by making a $369 million down payment on 12 more planes. Related Topics * Americas * Air Warfare U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates had intended to end F-22 production at 187 fighters, but House lawmakers overruled him. The $369 million would buy advance procurement parts to begin production on a dozen new fighters. Ultimately, the planes would cost about $2.8 billion. The advance procurement money would be taken from funds budgeted for Energy Department cleanups at nuclear weapons sites, a House aide said. Although it is the Air Force's most advanced and most expensive fighter, the F-22 has never been flown in combat, a point Gates has stressed repeatedly in appearances before Congress. When he announced April 6 that he wanted to end F-22 production, Gates said, "For me, it was not a close call. ? The military advice that I got was that there is no military requirement for numbers of F-22s beyond the 187." In the past, the Air Force has said it needed 381 F-22s. More recently it lowered the number to 243 until Gates put a 187-plane cap on the program. But the fighter is popular in Congress, where it is praised as providing the Air Force with a high-tech advantage over potential foes, and is prized for creating jobs. Plane maker Lockheed has emphasized that the F-22 program employees 25,000 workers directly and another 90,000 in companies that produce F-22 parts in 44 states. The amendment to save the F-22 was introduced by Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah. "We would liked to have funded a full buy of 12 aircraft," an aide to Bishop said. But Armed Services Committee Chairman Rep. Ike Skelton prohibited amendments that would add to the overall cost of the defense budget. Bishop was able to shift $369 million for the F-22s from defense environmental cleanups at sites that are projected to be ahead of schedule or are at risk of not being able to spend money allocated for 2010, the aide said. It's enough to keep the F-22 production line from shutting down, but Bishop and others on the committee believe the Air Force needs more than 12 additional F-22s, he said. While the Armed Services Committee was saving future F-22s, the full House approved spending $600 million to buy the final four planes that Gates wants. Money for those planes is included in a $106 billion "emergency supplemental" bill used to pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Language in that bill prohibits using the F-22 money to shut down the F-22 production line, and it permits the Defense Department to consider building a less capable version of the F-22 for sale overseas. The war-funding bill thwarts Gates' efforts to end another aircraft program, the C-17 cargo plane. Gates said the 205 C-17s that are already in the fleet or under construction are enough, and he included no money in the 2010 defense budget for additional C-17s. But the House and Senate added $2.7 billion to war-funding bill to buy eight C-17s and seven smaller C-130J cargo planes. The additional C-17s are "pure pork," said Christopher Hellman, a defense budget analyst for the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation. Buying more C-17s "can only be characterized as a jobs program." And C-17 maker Boeing has done just that. In February the company boasted that C-17 production sustained 30,000 jobs in 43 states, with concentrations in California, Texas, Missouri and Connecticut. Its a start, can't say that I'm surprised. Probably want to keep the line open to assess actual requirements and evaluate the tactical aircraft situation as a whole. Darth, this is NOT an I told you so but I am extremely pleased with this decision as I'm sure other posters here are as well.
 
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gf0012-aust       6/18/2009 1:13:09 AM
and it permits the Defense Department to consider building a less capable version of the F-22 for sale overseas.

good grief, more of this nonsense that the loonies in APA etc are now going to  run with.
How the ferk is LM going to run an export model when there is a criticality of core components availability for the existing  fleet?  The cost to get around this supply issue means developing a new core development - and that means heading towards a COTS solution to reduce the costs.  MOTS is the very reason why this platform is under the microscope and why any talk of an export version is a nonsense.  Redeveloping with COTS would take away some of the current embuggerances - and that would make it more attractive - but that is also a significant spiral development which would effect everything electronic and attached to its harness.

Apart from the issue that an export F-22 would no longer represent the overall capability which makes it lethal, why would anyone even contemplate going in this direction.

 
 
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Herald12345    V-22 tactics.   6/18/2009 6:06:17 AM
The professionals are in the driver seat and borrowing tactics from the "clown club".
 
 

Top Air Force General Calls Current F-22 Plan 'High Risk'

CQPolitics.com

Phaid       6/18/2009 11:37:14 AM
Another version of the story here....
 
I just love Gates' bald-faced lying about this stuff: "When he announced April 6 that he wanted to end F-22 production, Gates said, "For me, it was not a close call. ? The military advice that I got was that there is no military requirement for numbers of F-22s beyond the 187."  Even though Schwartz and others have made it completely clear that "the military requirements remains at 243 aircraft".

Either way, this is a good idea.
 
Oh and as far as the $233 million per ac canard, since they don't include a breakdown of what those costs include there is no point comparing it to any other aircraft.  The last flyaway cost numbers on the F-22 came out, I believe in the FY07 budget, was about $138 million.
 
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DarthAmerica       6/18/2009 12:51:24 PM

Another version of the story here....

 

I just love Gates' bald-faced lying about this stuff: "When he announced April 6 that he wanted to end F-22 production, Gates said, "For me, it was not a close call. ? The military advice that I got was that there is no military requirement for numbers of F-22s beyond the 187."  Even though Schwartz and others have made it completely clear that "the military requirements remains at 243 aircraft".

Either way, this is a good idea.

Oh and as far as the $233 million per ac canard, since they don't include a breakdown of what those costs include there is no point comparing it to any other aircraft.  The last flyaway cost numbers on the F-22 came out, I believe in the FY07 budget, was about $138 million.

Context Phaid. That was for the 243 for two MRC scenario the DoD no longer subscribes to. The USAF CoS and USAF Sec confirmed this with their statements. This is basically intended to allow for F-22 with each AEF. Also, IIRC both Gates and Schwartz called it risk only in the short term as legacy fighters are retired and before the F-35 is IOC. I'm not surprised by this or bothered so long as all funding is in addition to what was already provided.

-DA 
 
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Herald12345    I just love the alibis put out by the 183 crowd.   6/18/2009 2:13:47 PM
Must grate on you, (you know who you are) to see the contradictions that negate your claims IN PRINT from the Air Force.
 
Backpedaling and saying that "Gates said so, so it must be so" again, now are we?
 
"One front war", Gates is so right?. In the tacit admission that the 183 crowd just made, only ONE WAR at a time will be the threat matrix for which he plans and which he calls an acceptable short term risk before the enemy force emerges in thew 2018-2020 tome frame. .
 
Contradiction alert. What happens when that threat emerges and we have neither the F-22 or the F-35 (CREF recent pressures to cut that program)? What do you do then? Build UCAVs. What UCAVs? what UCAV do we have NOW that is a fighter?  It takes at least ten years to prepare a manned aircraft and in the case if we look at Typhoon, the hapless Rafale, the well run Gripen, the Raptor, and even the Sparkie programs, well twenty years is more like it.    .
 
Scratch my head over that one. We will be okay. Gates said so.
 
Other half of the fairy tale spouted by the 183 crowd which they want to ignore..
 
When was the last we faced one threat "singular" and were this unprepared? Gates says that the short term risk is acceptable but has NOTHING in the pipeline to address the longterm risk except the two current programs, one which he wants to kill and the other which he wants to curtail, putting our entire CONSORTIUM  TREATY commitments at risk
 
Its called a multi-polar world for a reason. Oh the Russians aren't a threat, the PRC bandits aren't a threat, Iran and the DPRKs, aren't a threat, etc.......
 
 
They like each other far less than they like us, but they don't like us and their two stooges closely cooperate with each other.
 
That's TWO confirmed threats. One BIG one and one small one.. 
 
Coverage matters.
 
I so laugh over all of this, of course, because in plain English I just told you why the 183 crowd is full of bowel; gas and expectorates it when they assert.^1  .    
 
Herald
.
^1  An assertion is a claim not supported by any evidence. An opinion is evidence supported. (CREF above)
 
 
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FJV    An irrelevant number of planes.   6/18/2009 2:15:17 PM
12 extra F22's are not gonna make a significant difference.
 
 
 
 
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EvilFishy       6/18/2009 2:17:10 PM
12 more F-22s will keep the line open and that alone may very well make the difference.
 
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SlowMan       6/18/2009 2:20:45 PM
@ FJV
 
> 12 extra F22's are not gonna make a significant difference.
 
The US Congress is trying to keep the F-22 line open until Japanese F-22 orders can be filled.
 
It is now a US congressional policy to export F-22 to Japan and who that want it, most likely Korea and Australia.

 
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RockyMTNClimber    243   6/18/2009 2:34:00 PM
 
Let US all remember what 243 F22 represents. It's USAF matrix was based upon the very rosey scenario that F35s would roll off the assembly lines on time, on budget, and in specific numbers totaling almost 2,000 for US alone. Since the F35 is about to be radically reduced or cut altogether, a fresh set of eyes need to look at the 243 middle risk assessment to determine how many Raptors we need in order to make up for the new threat matrix. This is because any reduction or delay of the F35 program will result in a shortfall in our tactical requirements being met at a very basic level.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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mustang22       6/18/2009 2:34:02 PM

12 extra F22's are not gonna make a significant difference.

 

 

 



It has nothing to do with them thinking 12 more will make any appreciable difference and all to do with keeping the line from closing down, like the article suggests. There is a shortage of fighters in the AF, until someone comes up with a better plan to fix it, closing the line down is foolish, its that simple.
 
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