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Subject: Israels JSF plans
usajoe1    6/17/2009 1:57:20 AM
Should the US allow Israel to instal its own locally developed systems on the F-35, and how much more effective can the bird be with it.I personally do not see a problem here since we are not going to face the IADF. They have done the same thing with the F-15/16's.
 
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JFKY    Herald   6/25/2009 1:52:01 PM
India?  India is building a 5th generation fighter?  Sure they are assembling a/c....and ONE DAY may design and build an indigenous high performance a/c, but today?  I don't think so.
 
BUT, India and the PRC have one thing Israel doesn't....MONEY.  2 Billion folks, even dirt poor folks field a LOT more money than do 4 million folks, even fairly well-off Israelis.  And since the PRC and India aren't simply dirt poor, they can produce advanced products much more "easily" than Israel.
 
So if you're into one word answers: Lavi.
 
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farscape    2014...   6/25/2009 1:54:16 PM
 
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DarthAmerica    JFKY reply   6/25/2009 2:56:27 PM

And Darth, don't tell me you've bought the Obama Kool-aid about dealing with Ach!My Dinner Jacket!?!?!?  He's playing Obama for time to develop a nuclear weapon.  The Iranians may or may not be crazy enough to use it or to let it be used by third parties, but it will fundamentally change the balance of power in the Persian Gulf, and NOT to the US' benefit!  Just because you voted for the guy doesn't mean you got to support a really bad policy!  I may have voted a number of folks, with whom I've had major policy disagreements...my vote doesn't mean my unconditional support....

 
LOL rhetoric again. OK, I was there when we provided the protection for his visit(s) to Iraq JFKY. This has nothing to do with Obama or the current Iranian President. This is also not about getting a nuke. I keep telling and showing you this is a side show. It's a means to an end and something the Iranians would trade away for what they are really after. Again, I was only physically present to see these things actually happen. You want to keep the MSM side show distraction as your talking point, fine. But just know its the last thing either side is really concerned with. Obama's policies are neither bad or different from Bush on this issue. You don't even seem to realize what you would or wouldn't be supporting!

Stop debating the propaganda. Centering this on Iran getting nukes is like the Iranian ignorant masses pumping their fist in the air chanting death to America. You are mired in your own sides propaganda. 

-DA 
 
 
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VelocityVector    JFKY   6/25/2009 3:02:17 PM

A collaboration between Israel and India could yield quality birds, is the point he was making I believe.

v^2

 
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Herald12345    Give me Israel and India    6/25/2009 3:11:32 PM

India?  India is building a 5th generation fighter?  Sure they are assembling a/c....and ONE DAY may design and build an indigenous high performance a/c, but today?  I don't think so.

 

BUT, India and the PRC have one thing Israel doesn't....MONEY.  2 Billion folks, even dirt poor folks field a LOT more money than do 4 million folks, even fairly well-off Israelis.  And since the PRC and India aren't simply dirt poor, they can produce advanced products much more "easily" than Israel.

 

So if you're into one word answers: Lavi.


and the PRC bandits, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia  and Iran as incentives. Add an arms embargo. Throw in South Africa as a resource base and money laundering conduit, add similar friends like Taiwan, and Japan shoved out of "the club".
 
Add ten years and stir in Russians as troublemakers for seasoning and.........
 
You won't get a  true low observable fighter or strike aircraft as we understand it, but you will get an aircraft based on the F-15 Silent Eagle using proprietary Israeli POCN jet turbine technology,  that could priduce a super cruise engine out of an old off the shelf clunker on the market just sitting there waiting for someone to license  it, add  a pair of internal weapons bays as well as some really first class Elbit avionics and........
 
The thing that defeated the Lavi wasn't money per se, it was ready access to a world class jet engine. THAT is the one bit of technology that threw Israel for a loop. They've had years to look at THAT problem.
 
Three solutions.
-Build a jet engine production facility of their own and steal a engine and reverse engineer it.
-buy jet engines from a third party.
-or deal with a jet engine consortium.
 
 which means very likely Turbo-Union RB199s
 
Herald

 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/25/2009 3:12:28 PM

A collaboration between Israel and India could yield quality birds, is the point he was making I believe.


v^2


The real point however is that while Israel can make some niche capabilities on it's own, it doesn't have the technology base, expertise, experience, MONEY or strategic depth necessary to maintain an independent national defense/foreign policy. Israel must court and maintain a relationship with an outside power, in this case the United States, if it hopes to survive in that part of the world for a number of reasons not limited to military. Because of this, the USA or whoever the current benefactor is, has a great deal of influence in ANY Israeli decision and especially decisions that involve actions of the IDF both outside and inside Israeli borders.  This will ultimately dictate what aircraft Israel flies, what systems get mated with it and level of access. Even what they do with it to an extent. Proliferating the F-35 to the IDF/AF represents a huge risk in terms of technology compromise and international incident. Not saying that the USA should not sell to the Israeli's but for sure things need to stay under very tight control and scrutiny. Does that suck for Israel? You bet.

-DA 

 
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Spiky       6/25/2009 3:24:00 PM
Have to agree on this one with JFKY, money in the billions is still going to be a problem for Israel to produce a 5th generation fighter. They would have to pool a tremendous amount of national resources together for this project when they have other pressing needs that are also competing for money, materials, and technology.
 
Personally, I believe the Israelis are sooner or later getting their F35s.
 
The U.S. needs Israel in the Middle East more than we are willing to admit.
 
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DarthAmerica       6/25/2009 3:30:59 PM

Have to agree on this one with JFKY, money in the billions is still going to be a problem for Israel to produce a 5th generation fighter. They would have to pool a tremendous amount of national resources together for this project when they have other pressing needs that are also competing for money, materials, and technology.
 

Personally, I believe the Israelis are sooner or later getting their F35s.

The U.S. needs Israel in the Middle East more than we are willing to admit.

No, wants, not needs. We have other allies in the region. Israel is a great ally and we should generally support them. But if they suddenly disappeared, the USA would survive that and adjust. It's Israel who NEEDS the USA. Without the USA, the Israelis would be in absolute peril to find another major power for support. This is why when push comes to shove, we can and should force our will on them to see to it that our interest are addressed first. Notice the latest Israeli public policy speech. That is what the PM wanted to say. It's what the current admin compelled him to say. There is a difference between want and need.

-DA 
 
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Spiky    Darth   6/25/2009 3:58:32 PM
No, wants, not needs. We have other allies in the region. Israel is a great ally and we should generally support them. But if they suddenly disappeared, the USA would survive that and adjust. It's Israel who NEEDS the USA. Without the USA, the Israelis would be in absolute peril to find another major power for support. This is why when push comes to shove, we can and should force our will on them to see to it that our interest are addressed first. Notice the latest Israeli public policy speech. That is what the PM wanted to say. It's what the current admin compelled him to say. There is a difference between want and need.

-DA
 
Interesting opinion. So should we also, as you so diplomatically put it, "when push comes to shove, we can and should force our will on" Turkey (Remember Iraq war they said NO to us in their air space), Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, our allies. Right, but, when it comes to Iran we don't want to meddle?
 
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JFKY    Darth   6/25/2009 4:03:23 PM
You've lost your mind...the Iranians wish to be a regional power, did under the Shah and do so too under the Mullahs.  The Shah may have been more pragmatic and the Mullahs more interested in the spread of the "Jihad" but both wanted Iran to be a regional power.
 
Iran, under the Mullahs, seeks a nuclear weapon to foster that power (Persian) and the "Jihad"-Shi'i version.  It is YOU who have consumed propaganda...they say "Death to America" because they believe and desire it.  If it were 1935 I'm sure we'd find you explaining how "Herr Hitler" really doesn't mean all those things he says or wrote about and that we can do business with him.....
 
Tell me Darth what other allies do we have in the region? Ok, to be fair there is Turkey...Egypt, an ally...its an occaisional asset, but it's hardly an "ally."  And there is Iraq, but in terms of what Iraq brings to the table, today and the near future it's not much of an ally.
 
Herald, be more clear in your writing.  India and Israel are possible partners in advanced development.  Probably be a decade or so for them to do it, but it's possible.
 
 
Israel isn't going to "steal" and engine and reverse engineer it at some manufacturing plant...it's a nice Tom Clancy novel idea but I think the resulting legal/trade imbroglio that engulfed Israel and any nation that bought such engines would be a good deterrent to the idea.
 
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Herald12345    What the poster said was that Israel had no options and therefore must accept the Obama party line.   6/25/2009 4:09:48 PM
I thought that pile of CRAP was his usual pure bull assertion declared to be fact. Based on what I KNEW, I understood he was wrong, and I flat said so.
 
His backpedal and sidestep excuse, doesn't change his ignorant assertion or the stupid assumptions he used to pronounce it as fact.
 
Additional:
 
It could just as easily be the PRC bandits, Russia, or the EU who are purchase partners or a PACRIM power here for the funding.  Even though funding would be a problem, the Israelis could find the money from their  CUSTOMER BASE..You know the Israelis actually built a jet aircraft TWICE when they were a lot poorer and had no subsidy at all., They even stole the jet engine and the plans to power the reverse engineered Mirage.  NESHER, and KFIR are the concrete examples-so yes they CAN build a jet aircraft. Now they even have their own avionics and WEAPONS to go aboard it  JERICHO II technology also proves that they can build such a jet as well. The jet engine is the only holdback. If they desperately need one, they will go out to license or steal it. 
 
Want to debate this, poster? 
 
FACTS trump assertions every time.
 
Herald
 
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LB    Israeli Fighters   6/25/2009 4:11:55 PM
The deal for F-35s does not mean Israel does not require an aircraft to replace it's F-15s in the air superiority role.  The F-35 is a stealthy strike fighter.  There is still a lot of talk about a future air superiority fighter for the IAF.
 
The notion that Israel can't build a fighter is ridiculous.  Israel was going to build one 25 years ago and after a lot of lobbying by the US was convinced that it would be too expensive by a margin of 1 vote in the Knesset.  Israel is a world leader in the production of avionics, radars, missiles, UAVs, etc.  They reverse engineered the Mirage III about 40 years ago and are a world leader in updating aircraft.
 
As Herald pointed out the one thing they did not do 25 years ago is produce jet engines.  They now have an annual jet engine symposium, a company like R-Jet Engineering which developed the "disruptive" turbine engine, a significant research facility, companies like Ashot that in the past 15 years have built more than 25,000 engine shafts for companies like GE and RR, etc.  It's not clear to me that Israel could not develop or co develop a jet engine with India within 10 years.  
 
Focusing on Iran's nuclear weapons program is not being mired in one's own propaganda and saying so is disturbing on myriad levels.  First lets just assume, as you apparently do, that Iran is a rational actor and is not an existential threat to Israel.  Let us further assume Israel believes this and will not seek to attack Iran.  Then let us assume Iran will not give a nuclear weapon, nuclear materials, or nuclear weapons technology to a 3rd party.  Further let us assume Iran will not use the threat of it's nuclear weapons as a political tool against the interests of the US or our allies (leaving Israel aside).
 
Even assuming all this there remains the reality that Iran with nuclear weapons means nuclear weapons programs sprouting up in Saudi Arabia, the UAE (they have already contracted for multiple new reactors), Turkey, Egypt and others.   This type of nuclear arms race is a rather large geo poltical problem that is not mollified by the simplistic notion that a nuclear Iran can be both contained and deterred.
 
A nuclear Iran will have much higher regional fallout than a nuclear North Korea and the fallout from a seriously rearmed Japan has not even begun to be appreciated.
 
Isreal managed to survive 1948, 1956, and 1967 withou major US government support.  Isreal managed to survive after losing it's major arms suppliers in France and the UK in the 1960s.  It now has hundreds of it's very advanced thermonuclear weapons without the Cold War USSR propping up Syria and Egypt.  Unlike 1973 a combined invasion by these two nations today is going nowhere.  The use of WMDs is another matter altogether.  In any case saying Israel does not survive without the US is a tad silly.  Israel recently exported more arms than the UK or France to hit 3rd behind the US and Russia.
 
 
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/25/2009 4:27:08 PM

You've lost your mind...the Iranians wish to be a regional power, did under the Shah and do so too under the Mullahs.  The Shah may have been more pragmatic and the Mullahs more interested in the spread of the "Jihad" but both wanted Iran to be a regional power.

 LOL lost my mind? You need to settle down characterizing me and re-read what I told you. Nuclear Weapons, are only a means to an end. Those ends are ensuring regime survival and greater regional influence. In that order. Nuclear Weapons aren't absolutely necessary to achieve any of that. They merely give Iran leverage in pursuing what they want in negotiation. The threat of nuclear weapons give Iran much more power than actually having them.

Iran, under the Mullahs, seeks a nuclear weapon to foster that power (Persian) and the "Jihad"-Shi'i version.  It is YOU who have consumed propaganda...they say "Death to America" because they believe and desire it.  If it were 1935 I'm sure we'd find you explaining how "Herr Hitler" really doesn't mean all those things he says or wrote about and that we can do business with him.....

Again, you don't understand the culture. This is surprising because you have just been treated to a week of unprecedented look into it as a result of the election crisis. 99% of all Iranians to include it's most powerful leaders DO NOT WANT DEATH TO AMERICA. 


Tell me Darth what other allies do we have in the region? Ok, to be fair there is Turkey...Egypt, an ally...its an occaisional asset, but it's hardly an "ally."  And there is Iraq, but in terms of what Iraq brings to the table, today and the near future it's not much of an ally.

Again, you do not get it. Ally doesn't mean 100% agreement, 100% same kind of government, 100% same culture. The ME is full of nations that are allied to US interest. I've personally spent 6 months as a liason to one of those nations and the assignment was prior to the GWOT. You really should research this if you don't have the benefit of any experience with nations like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Kuwait, UAE ect. 
With regard to Iraq. I find it absolutely hilarious that you even bring up what it brings to the table and then in the same breath want to chastise Iran on behalf of Israel.
 -DA
 
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Herald12345       6/25/2009 8:28:04 PM
Explaining the Long-term Hostility between the United States an

Explaining the Long-term Hostility between the United States and Iran

Nils Jordet

Ph.D. Dissertation

The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Tufts University

THE RESEARCH PUZZLE

It is unfortunate that the long-term hostility between Iran and the United States has come to be seen in the oversimplified and narrowly defined terms of Islamic fundamentalism. One ramification of this common ideological construction is the difficulty it causes in answering an important historical question: How do we theoretically explain the long-term hostility between the United States and Iran? This dissertation seeks to explain the enduring animosity between the United States and Iran.

Despite the passing away of Ayatollah Khomeini in 1989, U.S.-Iranian relations have remained virtually frozen for two decades. In the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution in 1978-79, Iran became in due course the permanent enemy of the United States. The 19th century British foreign secretary and prime minister, Lord Palmerston, famously proclaimed that Great Britain ?has no permanent friends; she has only permanent interests.? Correspondingly, one needs to ask the question why the United States—the most powerful and prosperous nation of the 20th century—as a matter of fact acquired a number of ?permanent enemies.?

OBSERVATIONS

Since Ayatollah Khomeini denounced the United States as the "Great Satan" and approved the seizure of the American embassy in Tehran in November 1979, the U.S. has treated the Islamic Republic of Iran as one of the most extreme, irrational, and dangerous governments in the world. President Clinton?s national security advisor, Anthony Lake, characterized Iran as a ?backlash? state and concluded ?[Iran?s] revolutionary and militant messages are openly hostile to the United States and its core interests. This basic political reality will shape relations for the foreseeable future.? The Clinton Administration then called for a policy of ?dual containment? of Iran and Iraq, which culminated in the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act of 1996.

Despite the extremely ideological and hostile rhetoric coming out of Iran, the argument can be made that Iran?s foreign policy since the death of Ayatollah Khomeini has been predominantly pragmatic and above all rooted in realpolitik dictated by economic, demographic, and legitimate security problems. However, two years into the second Clinton Administration, U.S. foreign policy toward Iran was paradoxically more uncompromising than at any time since the Hostage Crisis.

Today, the collision between Iran and the United States is directly linked to Iran?s involvement in international terrorism and Iran?s program for acquisition of weapons of mass destruction, and indirectly connected to parallel armed conflicts in the region. The United States and Iran have come to see several contested military and political issues in an entirely different light. The United States considers Iran?s effort to strengthen its military capability as destabilizing to the region. There is widespread agreement in the United States that Iran intends to acquire nuclear weapons. Iran?s program for acquisition of weapons of mass destruction is of great concern not only to the United States and Israel, but also to countries in Europe. However, Iran is nearly completely surrounded by countries with nuclear, chemical, or bacteriological capabilities. The eight year long war with Iraq taught Iran an extremely costly lesson not to ever fight another war without access to unconventional military capabilities. Moreover, Iran is geographically located within a conventional regional security environment that is extremely unstable. The region has seen three major wars over the last two decades—the Iran-Iraq War, the Gulf War, and the never-ending war in Afghanistan—in addition to a nuclear build-up between Pakistan and India. The region has in the same period experienced numerous smaller wars and armed conflicts in places like Tajikistan, Nagorno-Karabakh, Georgia, Chechnya, and ?Kurdistan.? The conflict in southern Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah is particularly illuminating with regard to the United States and Iran?s diametrical perception of the same disputed issues. The United States has branded the Hezbollah a terrorist organization, while Tehran sincerely considers the guerilla to be freedom fighters worthy of military and ideological support. Iran?s persistent resistance to a comprehensive Middle East peace settlement particularly infuriates the United States. In Iran, however, an overwhelming majority of the population are deeply offended by the perception that their country is not allowed, as a sovereign state, to have its rightful opinion about a highly contested area of great emotional concern to Iranians.

Despite the debate of what constitutes a legitimate armed struggle, Iran has nevertheless beyond any reasonable doubt sponsored international terrorism. In 1997, a German court ruled that Iran was directly linked to the killing of Kurdish-Iranian dissidents in a Berlin restaurant. The court concluded that the assassinations were ordered and approved by the Committee for Special Operations whose members included, among others, President Hashemi Rafsanjani, the country?s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and Iran?s foreign minister at the time. Furthermore, Iran is strongly believed to have sponsored the assassination of foreign national associated with publishing Salman Rushdie?s The Satanic Verses. Recently, Iran?s involvement in terrorism seems to have subsided and what remains is mainly targeted against the Mujahedin?e Khalq, which the U.S. State Department itself has put on its list of terrorist organizations. Paradoxically, Iran and the United States have had essentially common interests in Afghanistan, in Yugoslavia, and in the fight against international drug trafficking. Neither of the two countries has even contemplated public acknowledgment that this in fact has been the case.

PROPOSITIONS

How do we explain the long-term hostility between the United States and Iran when the tangible sources of conflict do not measure up to the ferocity and longevity of the conflict itself? It is unfortunate that the long-term hostility between Iran and the United States has come to be seen in the oversimplified and narrowly defined terms of Islamic fundamentalism. It is clearly time to demystify the conflict between Iran and the United States. This dissertation investigates a new approach for understanding the enduring animosity between the two nations.

I argue that we must examine the realm of psychological variables at play in both states that have added undue weight to historical events, and only then combine these findings with more conventional theoretical approaches to world politics. The realist paradigm of international relations theory best explains the basics of the conflict, however, the foreign policies of Iran and the United States too often contradict the realist conceptualization of international behavior. I contend that the prolonged conflict between the two states is significantly out of balance with the relatively few substantive sources of conflict between them. In other words, on its own the theoretical assumption of rational interests and pursuit of power by both parties to the conflict does not explain the enduring hostility between Iran and the United States.

Works on U.S.-Iran relations have so far failed to systematically explain the relationship between hard felt emotions, passions, and perceptions among people on both sides of the conflict—pride, dignity, respect, arrogance, insult, humiliation, and fear—and the actual historical events that took place. With particular emphasis on the Islamic Republic of Iran, we need to revisit psycho-anthropological approaches to national behavior. The answer to these questions is to be found in Iran?s national history.

Each period in Iran?s long and often troubled history has been characterized by certain overarching themes. These have been transmitted through the intervening ruling dynasties down to today?s governing clergy in Tehran. My major theoretical argument is that these legacies and their internal contradictions to a large extent account for Iran?s erratic state behavior, and consequently they also explain its long-term hostility toward the United States. I propose that Iran?s enduring conflict with the United States stems from seven separate but interrelated themes in Iran?s national history: (1) Monarchial absolutism, (2) Imperial ambitions, (3) Foreign dominance, (4) Permanent external enemies, (5) Religious legitimacy, (6) Internal factionalism and autonomous centers of power, and (7) Entanglement in international power rivalries. This theoretical framework implies strongly that Iran?s conflict with the United States was unavoidable. The United States is just the latest in an endless string of major powers competing with Iran for regional hegemony.

Conflicts that exceed our expectations offer critical opportunities to expand our understanding of violent inter-state conflict in world affairs. The U.S. and Iran?s enduring hostile relationship provides a case which suggests strongly that our understanding of the sources of conflict can be expanded. Through close evaluation of history, international relations, and international relations theory, this dissertation attempts to weave a more expansive understanding of the human experience that informs international conflict into the realist paradigm. Its goal is to use the case of US and Iran as the basis to propose a policy-relevant theory that increases our understanding of unexplained long-term hostility between states.

On a comparative level of analysis, the conflict with the Unites States fits a number of other long-term enemies in American diplomatic history. Iran falls into one particular category of Third World countries, which have vivid historical memories of a great imperial past. The collective trauma of having severe infringement imposed on its sovereignty or having to totally subjugate to the will of foreign powers have noticeably defined the politics of these countries in the post-colonial era. During the second half of the 20th century, most Third World countries were ?neo-colonies? in the sense that they had formal political independence, but for a complex variety of reasons, they found themselves in continued economic and military dependency on their former colonial masters or to a new and powerful patron. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union and the United States each built up a network of client states. This particular mixture of memories of western imperialism, post-colonial defenselessness, economic dependency, and superpower rivalry was ripe for local corruption and repression. When violent protests against the local authoritarian regime erupted, it was a revolt not only against the native autocracy, kleptocracy or mafiocracy, but also against the global power hierarchy and the international economic order, epitomized by the all-mighty foreign patron, the United States of America.

Why is the Conflict Between Iran and the United States so Important?

The ideology of the dominant forces within the ruling clergy Iran stands in the way for a peaceful development of human interaction in the Middle East region and beyond. One of the reasons is that the true nature of the current regime in Tehran remains elusive and poorly understood by outside observers. Iran will continue to challenge core American and European objectives in the future for several important reasons. First, the conservative and authoritarian faction within the Iranian theocracy promotes a system of governance that fundamentally contradicts the core values upon which the modern international system of peaceful coexistence was founded. This is particularly true in the realm of basic human rights, such as the systematic use of torture and executions, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion.

Second, it is clearly in the interest of the United States, Europe and above all the countries in the region to reach a comprehensive peace settlement between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Iran has made no secret of its strong opposition to the U.S.-sponsored Middle East Peace Process. Since the Iranian Revolution in 1978-79, Iran has actively sought to obstruct any accommodation by the Muslim World of the State of Israel, which it perceives as a continuation of the painful legacy of Western imperialism.

Third, Iran is perhaps second only to Russia in the threat it poses to the to the long-term objectives of the NATO alliance. It is therefore not surprising that there have been a warming of ties between these two historical enemies in the 1990s. If NATO wants to continue to be successful in its second fifty years, it must seek to influence and accommodate Tehran. Iran is the only remaining nation with a common border with a NATO member that has explicitly and repeatedly declared its hostile intentions against at least one of the members of the alliance. During the Cold War, Norway and Turkey were the only two members of the alliance with a shared physical border with the Soviet Union. While the commitment to defend the northern NATO flank in North Norway was a symbolic goal rather than a militarily realistic objective against the largest military complex in the world at that time on the Kola Peninsula; yet, it sent a powerful message that the alliance was 100% committed to defending its territory. The most realistic territorial threat against NATO in the future will come from Turkey?s eastern neighbors. With the possible integration of Turkey into the European Union, the Kurdish problem in the east will most likely become a more serious source of instability than in the past since the traditional harsh methods of suppression will not be available to the central Turkish government.

Fourth, the ongoing dispute over access to scarce water resources — now predominantly controlled by Turkey — will become increasingly contentious as the regional consumption of water is dramatically increased due to extreme high rates of population growth, rapid urbanization, and improved standards of living. Recent research suggests that water scarcity issues by the year 2010 could have an explosive destabilizing effect on the region. Iran has indirectly tremendous leverage over any lasting political settlement over access to scarce water resources. It is clearly in the interest of world peace to reach a comprehensive and lasting accommodation over trans-border water issues in the Middle East involving both the governments in Ankara and in Tehran.

Fifth, Iran is one of the key players in an emerging regional and international nuclear arms race, not so much for its capabilities as for its perceived hostile intentions. Publicly, the United States quoted missile attack from so-called ?rogue states,? such as Iran, Iraq and North Korea, as the justification for developing and deploying a missile defense system. However, many analysts believe that the system is intended to counter the missile threat from China since Iran, Iraq and North Korea?s overall offensive capabilities are disproportionate to the planned U.S. defensive capacity. Moreover, many analysts believe that such a system will have the unintended effect of provoking a large-scale missile build-up. The real question is not whether Iran has the intention or technical will to acquire nuclear weapons or not; it is which strategic variables factor into the Iranian regime?s threat-response and cost-benefit analyses. It has surely not escaped the decision-makers in Tehran that deployment of nuclear missiles will almost certainly trigger a regional and international arms race. If the world intends to prevent a serious build-up of weapons of mass destruction capabilities in this region, it must influence Iran?s ever more rational decision-makers by acknowledging Iran?s legitimate security concerns.

Sixth, the conflict with Iran will in the future test the internal unity of the trans-Atlantic alliance. The United States perceives the conflicts in the Middle East in the context of terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, and the flow of oil to the world market. The European Union is increasingly concerned with the influx of refugees from the Middle East and North Africa to Western Europe. Illegal immigration is challenging the core values of all liberal democracies in Europe. Over the last two decades, the far right in nearly every European country has seen a remarkable increase in support by exploiting dark xenophobic undercurrents in the population at large. Newly arrived immigrants in Western Europe have not assimilated over time in the same way as massive immigration has in the United States. European politicians increasingly see illegal immigration as a serious challenge to the social fabric of Europe, and there is building consensus that future immigration must be seriously curtailed. Iran is a vital important player in Europe?s immigration woes. Iran has for many years given shelter to the largest refugee population in the world, and has the power to control several regional conflicts that can create massive refugee problems, which will eventually spill over to Europe. Rather than deal solely at home with the difficult issues surrounding immigration, Europe and the NATO alliance will be forced to deal with political and economic conditions which give rise to immigration at the source. Iran?s partnership in this process will be critical to its success.

Finally, Iran has for a long time been the most effective barrier against drug trafficking from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Iran?s share of global seizure of heroin and morphine trafficking rose from 9% in 1987/88 to 42% in 1997/98. ?In 1999, seizures of heroin more than doubled, and overall heroin/morphine seizures in Iran grew by a quarter over the 1997/98 average, reflecting the massive increase of opium production in neighboring Afghanistan, the increasing use of Iranian territory by drug trafficking organizations, and the priority given by the Iranian authorities to drug interdiction.?1 Governments in most countries in the West now list the threat from international organized crime as a threat to national security. A change in policy within Iran would effectively undermine the effort to stop the flow of narcotics to the markets in Western Europe and the United States. For the above reasons, and due to the fact that differences between U.S. and European approaches to dealing with the Iranian clergy have a potential to weaken the NATO alliance, overcoming long-term hostility between Washington and Tehran is a central component in the United States and Europe?s future.

1 United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, World Drug Report 2000, http://www.odccp.org/adhoc/world_drug_report_2000/cover.pdfhttp://www.odccp.org/adhoc/world_drug_report_2000/cover.pdf," target="_blank">link 8
 
Now this is the CRAP assertion:
 
Again, you don't understand the culture. This is surprising because you have just been treated to a week of unprecedented look into it as a result of the election crisis. 99% of all Iranians to include it's most powerful leaders DO NOT WANT DEATH TO AMERICA.
 
If the poster wants to comment then he should learn some Iranian history and social anthropology. The Iranians for example speak Farsi, not pure arabic.. They are Shia moslems, not wahhabi whackjobs. They are currently  misruled by a fascist council of clerics, but their political; tradition is socialist bureaucratic and based on the only middle class outside of Israel and Turkey that is politicallyt active and factionally effective. They don't think like an arab and they would regard the comparison as an insult.
 
Your so called "experience" doesn't apply at all, poster. In fact you don't know what you are talking about, again..
 
 
Herald

 
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