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Subject: Israels JSF plans
usajoe1    6/17/2009 1:57:20 AM
Should the US allow Israel to instal its own locally developed systems on the F-35, and how much more effective can the bird be with it.I personally do not see a problem here since we are not going to face the IADF. They have done the same thing with the F-15/16's.
 
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DarthAmerica       6/23/2009 5:01:49 PM

Iranian people. There is a possibility that what has happened in the barbarian country next door has had more impact on the Iranians than the antics of the MSM around BHO. The credit for the Iraqis freely electing their government and enjoying freedom of expression belongs to the Bush administration, and Obama actively opposed it. 
 
Obama and Bush are POLITICIANS. They make policy. They say what's necessary to get into office and STAY there with respect to party lines. Once in office however, what they do is much more in line with the center. As you can see by actions from both sides. Injecting this right vs left BS into presidential politics is ignorant of reality IMHO. GWB very much deserves credit for things that happened in Iraq. But as you are no doubt aware, that war is not over and responsibility has passed to BHO who's responsibility it is to either continue or change past policy. He has CONTINUED the previous policy out of necessity which indicates that he understands the conditions as well as the last POTUS and concurs. Nevermind election year rhetoric. I can show plenty of contrary to good-ol GOP values actions from GWB. That left vs right nonsense is for entertainment.


If anything, Obama's story is a true caveat against democracy, a system which enabled the use of mass psychology and collective hypnosis by unanimous media during the most protracted campaign in human history, to bring about the election of a candidate not congruent with the interests and the psyche of his country.

UTTER NONSENSE. But I'll NOT ENGAGE YOU OR ATTEMPT TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION ON THIS. I happily agree to disagree and will move on to more thread relevant subject matter.

-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/23/2009 5:08:22 PM

Well, what can I say? Military procurement is out of the public debate and the citizens of this country are not consulted on defense procurement decisions, and even the Knesset does not have much of a say in this apart from voting on budgetary frameworks, so I guess I'll have to suck it up. We're surrendering to the Empire, again. Is this plane really worth all this trouble? Can't we really get a better deal outside, our at home?



Considering Israeli geopolitical dependence on an outside power for survival and the lack a domestic solution or even foreign competitor, You're stuck if it's your intent to enter the 5th Gen fighter market! Otherwise you have to look to an alternative solution and be willing to accept the limitations.

-DA 
 
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usajoe1    DA   6/23/2009 8:42:14 PM
Look Dart, I respect your views, but I am not going to change my views on this subject.
 
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Shirrush    Darth   6/24/2009 5:13:04 PM
Well, thank you so much for reminding me with such tact and subtlety that we are but an insignificant, distant and expendable vassal of your mighty empire, but I also remember my country doing quite well at defending itself without any help from Amrikka, when it was a lot weaker and poorer than it is today, and when its enemies had every kind of possible advantages over it.

The Israeli air force seems to be dead set on acquiring these F35's, so I suppose this order will go through, but I sincerely hope this one squadron will also be the last one, and that the tweak-and-
maintenance deal our officials will be able to squeeze from the Pentagon will be sufficient for our aeronautics people to learn the system well. The F35 for sure will be supplied in quantities to most of our
actual and potential adversaries, so the IDF needs to able to anticipate and know exactly how to defeat it in the event it is used against us, and this carries a near-one probability. This is nothing new, and the US, in order to "guarantee our survival", has always supplied the Saudis, the Egyptians, and most of the actually or potentially jihading Moslem states with the same F4's, F15's and F16's we had.

The reason why Israel is so insistent on its own electronics n'stuff in its JSFs, is simply because it has always been the case with US-procured aicraft, since the IDF felt the need to fly different, and somewhat superior versions than those in Arab air forces' colors.
This insistence also has always been a bone of contention with Washington, and the F16I, while heavified with a jitload of ooh-ha Izzie subsystems, has a US-imposed, non-AESA radar in its nose, because we had to compromise as we shall for the F35, itself even more of an instrument of the US strategy to control its "allies" defense capabilities.

It is also very likely that the F35 will never reach Israeli service, as politics go. We may have to win a war with old, patched-up aircraft and maybe a few squadrons of non-American, subpar aircraft such as the Indian Tejas, but again, we've done that before.
 
About the present haggling re. the F35 procurement, the Jerusalem  Post has a similar, but somewhat different story from the Globes one I posted yesterday.
 
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Herald12345    What the ASrmy guy doesn't understand..........    6/24/2009 5:30:12 PM
and that I do, is that Israel CAN rewire those birds, once they get them. If you think this is beyond  Israeli capacity to do, then I remind you what the Israelis did exactly that for India, so that India's Sukhois  can take Derby and Paveway asnd a few other non Russian goodies.  EW is a bit tougher to work around as the Sparky is a flying countermeasures package that just happens to bomb you, but US F-14 EW systems were Iranian compromised to produce the PRC developed JH-7. Let's not kid ourselves, DARTH, like some schoolkids about this.

Herald
 
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Herald12345    What the Army guy doesn't understand..........    6/24/2009 5:37:49 PM

and that I do, is that Israel CAN rewire those birds, once they get them. If you think this is beyond  Israeli capacity to do, then I remind you what the Israelis did exactly that for India, so that India's Sukhois  can take Derby and Paveway asnd a few other non Russian goodies.  EW is a bit tougher to work around as the Sparky is a flying countermeasures package that just happens to bomb you, but US F-14 EW systems were Iranian compromised to produce the PRC developed JH-7. Let's not kid ourselves, DARTH, like some schoolkids about this.




Herald

Forgot tp add, that Elta does what the French have yet to do.

 
 If the F-16Is still use clunker radars, NOW, that would surprise the heck out of me.
 
 Herald
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/24/2009 10:04:56 PM

and that I do, is that Israel CAN rewire those birds, once they get them. If you think this is beyond  Israeli capacity to do, then I remind you what the Israelis did exactly that for India, so that India's Sukhois  can take Derby and Paveway asnd a few other non Russian goodies.  EW is a bit tougher to work around as the Sparky is a flying countermeasures package that just happens to bomb you, but US F-14 EW systems were Iranian compromised to produce the PRC developed JH-7. Let's not kid ourselves, DARTH, like some schoolkids about this.




Herald



Amazing! Your ability to transform every thread you participate in into a Herald vs X where you get to insult and assert what anonymous people you have never met who you know nothing about know and defeat your own logical fallacies hilarious. NOTHING I said implies or suggest anything about what I think the Israeli's will or wont do with the F-35. If you want to know where I stand then ask or let me declare my own opinions. Otherwise stop trying to provoke yet another silly ego contest flame war. NOT INTERESTED. Whatever reply you choose to make will be completely ignored if it in anyway focuses on me rather than some aspect of the thread topic.

 
-DA

 

 
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DarthAmerica       6/24/2009 10:06:46 PM

Look Dart, I respect your views, but I am not going to change my views on this subject.

Oh, well that's good to know. However I have no interest in changing your views. You are more than welcome to harbor whatever beliefs you wish and it makes no difference to me.

-DA 
 
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Herald12345    I disagree with individuals , poster   6/24/2009 11:14:52 PM
who pretend they are reasonable men, when they try to masquerade their ignorance and their factless bias behind the syrup of "reasonableness" pretending that their tones and their assertions and claims to hidden knowledge are facts.
 
That is just a contemptible form of falsehood, and you must know by now what I think of such types of prevarication..
 
By the way you made your own ignorance plain enough. Here; let me quote your own ignorance:
 
Considering Israeli geopolitical dependence on an outside power for survival and the lack a domestic solution or even foreign competitor, You're stuck if it's your intent to enter the 5th Gen fighter market! Otherwise you have to look to an alternative solution and be willing to accept the limitations. 
 
You have no earthly idea of what that little nation can do, and therefore you give a blanket statement of your assertion and declare it to be a fact.
 
That was a very stupid statement uttered out of your total ignorance.
 
I don't even know why I should bother to try to teach you but here goes.......
 
They with wealth and a population smaller than greater New York, produce tanks, artillery, atomic bombs, cruise missiles, small arms, ballistic missiles , SAMS, radars, computers, TV sets, refrigerators, dishwashers, advanced biogenetic farming methods, advanced geothermal, and solar power methods, some of the finest mathematicians, doctors, and engineers practicing anywhere, a flood of other scientists out the wazoo, and they can take anybody's castoffs and  crap technology and improve it to the point of ridiculois effectiveness, so that it becomes sublime engineering to be studied and admired. Man for man, and per capita, they OUTCLASS US across the board.
 
They are MODERN TECHNOLOGICAL SPARTANS, mister so called expert..and its a damned fool who doesn't know that little factoid..
 
 
 
 
 
 
And that is just the "peaceful" side of Israelu tech. From UAVs to mechanical explosive sniffers to handheld translators to face recoignition software to the very artificial intellugence research that is giving us in the US such fit, who the hell do you think is giving us a leg up? Saudi Arabia? Iran? 
 
Just like folks don't know how important Spain, Britain, Australia, Italy, Norway, Germany, Holland, Japan  and yes even France is to us NECESSARY in some technology criticals, so ISRAEL is a nation we want to keep solidly in the ALLIED column.
 
What does Iran bring to us compared to Israel long term? Damned little, quien no sabe.
 
You better learn on which side of the bread slice the butter actually goes; butter side down man.  
 
It is yet another reason why the interregnimist, and apparently you, haven't got a clue.
 
Herald
 
 

 
   
 
 


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usajoe1    Herald   6/25/2009 12:16:53 AM
That was a great point you made on Israel, I wish more people in America could understand those facts.
 
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Spiky    What do you guys think?   6/25/2009 11:44:03 AM
Looks like a done deal.
 
Israel "To close deal on F-35"
Spacewar
Tel Aviv, Israel (UPI) June 24, 2009
 
After protracted disagreements, the Israeli Defense Ministry was reported Wednesday to be close to sewing up a deal to buy up to 25 U.S. F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter aircraft built by Lockheed Martin, which Israeli leaders believe is essential to counter Iran's alleged nuclear weapons program.

According to the Jerusalem Post, the two sides reached an agreement on several Israeli demands to integrate Israeli technology into the aircraft. That followed a series of visits to Washington by the commander of Israel's air force, Maj. Gen. Ido Nehushtan, and the air force's equipment and procurement director, Brig. Gen. Kobi Bortman.

The final breakthrough came at the Paris Air Show last week when Israel's defense minister, former chief of staff Gen. Ehud Barak, Israel's most decorated soldier, met with top Lockheed Martin officials.

According to Israeli reports, the Americans agreed to allow the Israelis to incorporate their own electronic warfare and communications systems into the fifth-generation fighter, and to allow the Israeli air force to maintain the aircraft independently of the United States.

The Post reported that one of the Americans' "main concerns regarding the installation of Israeli systems was that it would require configurations to the jet's internal computer system and expose top-secret technology to Israel." The Israelis apparently agreed to bypass the computer mainframe when installing the systems.

Israel has made an all-out effort to acquire the F-35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, because its range, striking power and radar-evading stealth characteristics make it essential to counter the S-300PMU air-defense missile systems Jerusalem fears Russia will sell to Iran to protect its nuclear facilities and other strategic targets.

The mobile S-300 is one of the highly advanced air-defense systems in the world. Known in the West as the SA-20, it is capable of shooting down aircraft or cruise missiles from altitudes as low as 30 feet to as high as 90,000 feet.

Gen. Richard Hawley, former commander of the U.S. Air Force Air Combat Command, asserted recently, "For non-stealth aircraft, the SA-20 represents a virtual no-fly zone."

Moscow, pressed by Israel and the United States not to provide Iran -- or its Arab ally Syria -- with the S-300, has repeatedly denied that it intends to do so. But according to the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a pro-Israel think tank, the Russians could still sell Tehran the S-300V, a less capable system known as the SA-12 in the West.

There has been repeated speculation that Israel may launch a pre-emptive strike against Iran's nuclear installations to block its efforts to enrich uranium to weapons grade.

U.S. President Barack Obama's administration has demanded the Israelis stay their hand to give his diplomatic outreach to Iran time to pursue an agreement with the Islamic republic that it will not build nuclear weapons.

From that perspective, U.S. agreement to allow Israel to fit its own equipment into the F-35 -- the crux of the standoff over the aircraft -- could be seen as an effort to placate the Israelis at this critical period.

"Israel currently believes that its F-15I and F-16I aircraft maintain a viable strike option against Iranian nuclear targets," according to a Washington Institute analysis published in March.

"As long as this remains the case, Israel may remain receptive to requests to give diplomacy more time. Increasingly clear, however, is that Israel regards the S-300 (in any configuration) as closing an important window of opportunity; Iran's acquisition of the S-300 would render Israel's current strike options dramatically more difficult, and could force Israel to considerably move forward any strike timetable."

Israel originally had its sights on the U.S. F-22 stealth fighter since development of that jet began in the early 1990s. But the Americans decided to block any foreign sales of the F-22, known as the Raptor and which is now in service with the U.S. Air Force.

Israel switched its sights to the F-35A, which is being developed by Lockheed Martin and eight foreign partners -- Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark and Norway.

Israel wants an initial purchase of 25 aircraft, enough for one squadron with delivery starting in 2010, and an option for 50 more.

 
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Herald12345    How are we supposed to provide initial Sparkies by 2010?   6/25/2009 12:18:28 PM
We haven't even op-evaluated the aircraft to our own units! We are still in the middle of the weapon proof. I doubt that we can churn out more than twenty five Sparkies if we had to emergency produce them next year for ourselves (and it now looks like we have to do that thing).

Lots of things wrong with that article.
 
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Spiky    Herald   6/25/2009 12:29:38 PM
"How are we supposed to provide initial Sparkies by 2010?"
 
Yes, I noticed that too, that is why I wanted to quickly get some opinions. Thanks. We will see how things pan out. I'm curious to also see how the Russians handle the S300 demand from the Iranians. Much politics involved in this dance for the  S300 sales.
 
A lot of things wrong with the article but there are also some nuggets of facts that are showing a trend with the F35 sale to the Israelis. Just sifting a little. :)
 
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JFKY    Herald   6/25/2009 1:17:54 PM
You have no earthly idea of what that little nation can do, and therefore you give a blanket statement of your assertion and declare it to be a fact.

Well we DO know Israel can't develop a fighter on its own...Wasn't sure if you were trying to imply or even state this, but Lavi shows that.  So for air frames Israel is stuck with the US or whomever will sell them a/c.  Israel simply can't afford it...
 
I would agree that in a choice between Tel Aviv and Tehran there is no choice....Tel Aviv has to be the choice.  Why anyone would exchange "Death to America/Great Satan" for Israel is beyond me.
 
One day, mayhap, we won't have to make that choice...Tehran and Tel Aviv weren't always enemies and in 20-40 years that may be again.  The road to peace in the Israeli area runs thru Tehran, with the Mullahs gone there is no Assad in Syria and no Hizb'Allah in Lebanon.
 
And Darth, don't tell me you've bought the Obama Kool-aid about dealing with Ach!My Dinner Jacket!?!?!?  He's playing Obama for time to develop a nuclear weapon.  The Iranians may or may not be crazy enough to use it or to let it be used by third parties, but it will fundamentally change the balance of power in the Persian Gulf, and NOT to the US' benefit!  Just because you voted for the guy doesn't mean you got to support a really bad policy!  I may have voted a number of folks, with whom I've had major policy disagreements...my vote doesn't mean my unconditional support....
 
And if this is some form of "realism" you know, "Hey the regime is there.  It's not going away.  It's important to deal with them.  They are larger and more important than Israel."  Then, you're fooling yourself....the regime is ephemeral, remember East Germany and soon North Korea...they have nothing but hatred for us, the regime, and wish us only ill....we might want to CONTAIN them, but not "deal" with them.  And this is why I'm not a "Realist."  "Realists" seem ever willing to accept the evil  in the world, as a given and seem constantly surprised when what they though of as "real" is proven to be transitory.
 
 
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Herald12345    JFKY reply.   6/25/2009 1:31:21 PM
India.
 
Herald
 
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