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Subject: Israels JSF plans
usajoe1    6/17/2009 1:57:20 AM
Should the US allow Israel to instal its own locally developed systems on the F-35, and how much more effective can the bird be with it.I personally do not see a problem here since we are not going to face the IADF. They have done the same thing with the F-15/16's.
 
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usajoe1       6/18/2009 10:43:00 PM
Did you forget about the 100k plus U.S. Soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or how about the several billion who depend on the oil that has to flow from that part of the world? Also, what makes you think bombing Iran is going to set their program back any length of time? What criteria are you using to make that assessment?
 
No I did not forget. First of all what part of Geography did you not understand. The US troops In Iraq are spread out, and in a case of war agaianst Iran would be on the offensive, and there is no target in Iraq that is as valuable as Soul in terms of economy. Plus the human toll of a artillary strike on soul from the North and the same from Iran on Iraq is not the same deal, not even close. Like I said a war between North Korea  and America would only take place if the North atacked first, and before we can respond with our full might, Soul will be in ruins and maybe a quarter of a million people would be dead and wounded. If there is going to be a war between Iran vs America/Israel, we would be the ones attacking first. We already have enough troops there for the initial part of a invasion and we would certinally have 3 or 4 CSG their before we hit. Our Navy will have control of the seas within a matter of a day or two and our Air Force will have Air Superiority within a week or so. Now as to the Nuclear program, remember Iraq and Syria, it has been done before, maybe Israel can't take out the entire program like those two, but it can set it back for sure. Don't count out Israel they have done the impossible many a times.
 
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usajoe1    DA   6/18/2009 10:47:37 PM
There are plans Beazzz. None of them involve unilateral Israeli action.
 
What plans? appeasement. That is our current administrations foign policy in a nutshell.
 
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DarthAmerica       6/18/2009 11:04:13 PM

Did you forget about the 100k plus U.S. Soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or how about the several billion who depend on the oil that has to flow from that part of the world? Also, what makes you think bombing Iran is going to set their program back any length of time? What criteria are you using to make that assessment?

 

No I did not forget. First of all what part of Geography did you not understand. 

I understand it very well. I spent the last 2 years in the area you want to attack and surrounding region.


The US troops In Iraq are spread out, and in a case of war agaianst Iran would be on the offensive, and there is no target in Iraq that is as valuable as Soul in terms of economy. 

Really? That's news to me. U.S. Troops are concentrated in FOBs, Airbases and in transit. And offensive against who? Into Iran? I don't think so. Iran have natural barriers to invasion and we don't have the numbers there for offensives into Iran.

Plus the human toll of a artillary strike on soul from the North and the same from Iran on Iraq is not the same deal, not even close.

Really? Again this is news to me. MILLIONS of people died in the Iran-Iraq war. This is one of Iran's primary motivations.

 Like I said a war between North Korea  and America would only take place if the North atacked first, and before we can respond with our full might, Soul will be in ruins and maybe a quarter of a million people would be dead and wounded. If there is going to be a war between Iran vs America/Israel, we would be the ones attacking first.

That isn't what history says. Not even recent history.


 We already have enough troops there for the initial part of a invasion and we would certinally have 3 or 4 CSG their before we hit. Our Navy will have control of the seas within a matter of a day or two and our Air Force will have Air Superiority within a week or so.

So, we've had that in Afghanistan and Iraq for the last 20 years. I do not think you understand the nature of the fight you are committing yourself to. If you did, you would know why none of this matters.

 
 Now as to the Nuclear program, remember Iraq and Syria, it has been done before, maybe Israel can't take out the entire program like those two, but it can set it back for sure. Don't count out Israel they have done the impossible many a times.

I'm not counting out Israel. I just know what the IDF is capable of.(within reason) If you don't know what the target sets are, if you don't understand the enemy and if you don't understand the geography, what makes you say "for sure" anything? 


-DA 
 
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usajoe1    Wrong!   6/19/2009 12:51:36 AM
Did you forget about the 100k plus U.S. Soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or how about the several billion who depend on the oil that has to flow from that part of the world? Also, what makes you think bombing Iran is going to set their program back any length of time? What criteria are you using to make that assessment?
No I did not forget. First of all what part of Geography did you not understand. 
I understand it very well. I spent the last 2 years in the area you want to attack and surrounding region.
I did two years in Iraq as well, first time in 2003, with 1st Armored Divison, from Wackernheim, Germany, and the second time in 2005 from 542nd Maintenance Company, Fort Lewis WA. As far as geography is conserned I was talking about Soul and the artillery range it's in.
 
The US troops In Iraq are spread out, and in a case of war agaianst Iran would be on the offensive, and there is no target in Iraq that is as valuable as Soul in terms of economy. 
Really? That's news to me. U.S. Troops are concentrated in FOBs, Airbases and in transit. And offensive against who? Into Iran? I don't think so. Iran have natural barriers to invasion and we don't have the numbers there for offensives into Iran.
Yes, but they are not in danger of such an atrillery barrage as are the US Soldiers in camp casey. I'm pretty sure you had friends who did tours in Korea, and you know what is the first thing they say when you get into the country right?
 
Plus the human toll of a artillary strike on soul from the North and the same from Iran on Iraq is not the same deal, not even close.
Really? Again this is news to me. MILLIONS of people died in the Iran-Iraq war. This is one of Iran's primary motivations.
We are not Iraq my friend with our Air Power and superior land forces the Iranians can't do that kind of damage. A war between Iran and America will be just another Gulf War 1991, when Iraq really had some power, although we will have more casualties then 1991, but the outcome will be the same, complete annihilation of Irans war making capability.
 
Like I said a war between North Korea  and America would only take place if the North atacked first, and before we can respond with our full might, Soul will be in ruins and maybe a quarter of a million people would be dead and wounded. If there is going to be a war between Iran vs America/Israel, we would be the ones attacking first.
That isn't what history says. Not even recent history.
What, you think the US is going to start a war with Korea without them attacking first? no way.
 
We already have enough troops there for the initial part of a invasion and we would certinally have 3 or 4 CSG their before we hit. Our Navy will have control of the seas within a matter of a day or two and our Air Force will have Air Superiority within a week or so.
So, we've had that in Afghanistan and Iraq for the last 20 years. I do not think you understand the nature of the fight you are committing yourself to. If you did, you would know why none of this matters.
No, You are the one that those not understand. Iran's nuclear program has to go, it is very dangerous for the middle east. There is a big problem here if you can't understand that.
 
Now as to the Nuclear program, remember Iraq and Syria, it has been done before, maybe Israel can't take out the entire program like those two, but it can set it back for sure. Don't count out Israel they have done the impossible many a times.
I'm not counting out Israel. I just know what the IDF is capable of.(within reason) If you don't know what the target sets are, if you don't understand the enemy and if you don't understand the geography, what makes you say "for sure" anything?
What are you saying? Israel does not know the target sets, and the enemy, LOL, yah belive that if you want.
 
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DarthAmerica       6/19/2009 12:55:29 PM
usajoe,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. No sense getting into a circular argument. If you think that what we have in Iraq now is sufficient to wage war on Iran then I just don't know what to tell you. What I can tell you is that if I had to volunteer for another deployment as I did in 2006, and I had a crystal ball that said, hey, Israel is going to launch a surprise attack into Iran in Summer 2009 and War would break out in Korea, and I had to choose a station. I'd choose Korea. My knowledge of the ME is very current and I can say a lot has changed since 2003-2005. We could win a war against N Korea. That's a war against a nation state and is the kind of opponent we are set up to fight. A a 4GW Jihad hell where you have Shia vs Sunni vs Jew vs West that last for 10 years and involved NBC weapons? I'll pass.

I'm not saying that Iran shouldn't get nailed if it doesn't cooperate but the timing and methods you are suggesting are not going to work in my opinion so I respectfully disagree and urge you to remain patient and let the fountain pens and ballots do the fighting for now. 

-DA 
 
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Beazz       6/19/2009 2:40:06 PM



 


More complicated than that unfortunately. Iran can and will peep and the chances of Israel actually achieving the objective are not very good. It's not that we can't all get together and force the issue, it's more of an issue of will we. We being the US and a Coalition willing to work with the Israelis. No question we can bomb Iran, but we would be limited in our ability to contain the response which would require significant ground and naval forces.










-DA 



 



Well then I'd suggest those boneheads in Washington start making plans DA. Israel is not about to let their very existence be threatened because it is *not* in Americas best interest to stop it from happening. Israel cannot allow Iran to obtain nukes and it's not because Iran may nuke them. It's because once that happens every other Arab nation in the mid east will then want nukes and Israel will find itself surrounded on every border with nuke armed Jewish hating Arabs and they are not about to allow that to happen. American support or not, Israel IS going to stop Iran. You can take that to the bank.



 



beazz







There are plans Beazzz. None of them involve unilateral Israeli action.




-DA 


Well I admit I don't know a lot about what the plans may or may not be as far as Iran goes. But one thing I am certain of, YOU sure as hell do not know what Israel has planned to defend itself DA. For that matter, neither does OB and company. Israel is no fool and they would never give away their intentions to a clown and traitor like Obama. Even a blind person can see Obamas plans. It's have Israel give away all they hold dear, apoligyze and suck it up for team America!! Yea right. You can bet that's what Israel is gonna do lol
I tell ya DA. I consider myself patriotic as they come. It's my country right or wrong and I stand by it. But when the day comes America turns its back on/or against Israel, thats the day I turn my back on and against America for good. And don't think I am some looney fringe type with numbers that don't even add up. There are literally 10's of millions of Americans who when it comes to Israel, feel EXACTLY as I do DA.
 
Beazz
 
Beazz
 
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usajoe1    DA   6/19/2009 6:31:44 PM
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. No sense getting into a circular argument. If you think that what we have in Iraq now is sufficient to wage war on Iran then I just don't know what to tell you.
Once we get 3 or 4 CSG along with all the Air Bases we have in the Middle East we will have complete Air and Sea Superiority, agreed? The Troops we have in Iraq, Turkey and Afghanastan, are more than enough to stop Iran from going on the offensive. With the weeks of nonestop airstrikes from the sea and air, Irans Air Defenses will be all but gone. That will give us time to get at least a couple of more BCT's and UK's Armored divison and RM's into the Theater for on offensive. I think 250,000 troops, with complete air support, should be enough to have a decisive victory over Iran. Remember more then Half of Irans troops are very poor in training, logisitcs and equipment, and I see them doing the same thing as there Iraq counterparts did in the first Gulf War. Now for the other half, yes they might put up a decent fight and may cause more casualties then both GW's combined, but they can't hold up for more then 3 or 4 months, at best.


What I can tell you is that if I had to volunteer for another deployment as I did in 2006, and I had a crystal ball that said, hey, Israel is going to launch a surprise attack into Iran in Summer 2009 and War would break out in Korea, and I had to choose a station. I'd choose Korea.
Wow! I don't think any of my former Army friends would agree with that. You rather be in a Korean theater of war than Iran? Let me ask you a question, have you been stationed in Korea, or had close friends who were stationed in Camp Casy or Red Cloud?


My knowledge of the ME is very current and I can say a lot has changed since 2003-2005. We could win a war against N Korea. That's a war against a nation state and is the kind of opponent we are set up to fight. A a 4GW Jihad hell where you have Shia vs Sunni vs Jew vs West that last for 10 years and involved NBC weapons? I'll pass.
I agree, a lot may have changed since 2003-2005. Now as far as winning a war against Korea,  do you think we can't win a war against Iran? To me, not only could we win a war against Iran, I think it would be less destructive, in terms of human toll and economical damage. Remeber, most Arabs and Turks do not like Shia Iran, so I think your assertions are wrong on this subject.


I'm not saying that Iran shouldn't get nailed if it doesn't cooperate but the timing and methods you are suggesting are not going to work in my opinion so I respectfully disagree and urge you to remain patient and let the fountain pens and ballots do the fighting for now. 
I can stay patient, Iran is not a direct threat to me and my family and friends, and at the moment my homeland. Now they are a threat to the millions of Jews in Israel, who are a very close ally to my homeland. I will bet you if you were living in Israel you would have a diffrent belief my friend. I do not believe in turnning your back on your friends just becasue times might get tough, is the right road to travel. In a world where we have very few friends, I don't think we can lose any right now.
 
 
 
 
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eldnah       6/20/2009 10:56:07 AM
Israel will ruthlessly do whatever Israel feels is in its best interest. If you don't believe me ask the ghosts of the 34 crewman of the unarmed USS Liberty who were slaughtered in international waters by naval and air components of the IDF during the Six Day War. Give them access to the F-35 and the Israelis will steal, sell or corrupt what they can if they feel its in their best interests.
 
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usajoe1       6/20/2009 4:05:26 PM
Israel will ruthlessly do whatever Israel feels is in its best interest. If you don't believe me ask the ghosts of the 34 crewman of the unarmed USS Liberty who were slaughtered in international waters by naval and air components of the IDF during the Six Day War. Give them access to the F-35 and the Israelis will steal, sell or corrupt what they can if they feel its in their best interests.
That is a bunch of fabricated lies, and you should be a ashamed of yourself for posting such utter BS!
 
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eldnah       6/20/2009 10:11:28 PM

Israel will ruthlessly do whatever Israel feels is in its best interest. If you don't believe me ask the ghosts of the 34 crewman of the unarmed USS Liberty who were slaughtered in international waters by naval and air components of the IDF during the Six Day War. Give them access to the F-35 and the Israelis will steal, sell or corrupt what they can if they feel its in their best interests.
That is a bunch of fabricated lies, and you should be a ashamed of yourself for posting such utter BS!



Read the accounts of the USS Liberty. Read the comments of Adm Moorer, Sec Dean Rusk. Ask anyone who was in the US Navy at the time from ADM to Seaman Recruit.. Everyone one of us, I was an ENS at the time and we all followed what happened then and through the years. Don't tell me about BS. Read Assault on the Liberty by James Ennes who was the OOD during the attack.  
 
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