No I did not forget. First of all what part of Geography did you not understand. The US troops In Iraq are spread out, and in a case of war agaianst Iran would be on the offensive, and there is no target in Iraq that is as valuable as Soul in terms of economy. Plus the human toll of a artillary strike on soul from the North and the same from Iran on Iraq is not the same deal, not even close. Like I said a war between North Korea  and America would only take place if the North atacked first, and before we can respond with our full might, Soul will be in ruins and maybe a quarter of a million people would be dead and wounded. If there is going to be a war between Iran vs America/Israel, we would be the ones attacking first. We already have enough troops there for the initial part of a invasion and we would certinally have 3 or 4 CSG their before we hit. Our Navy will have control of the seas within a matter of a day or two and our Air Force will have Air Superiority within a week or so. Now as to the Nuclear program, remember Iraq and Syria, it has been done before, maybe Israel can't take out the entire program like those two, but it can set it back for sure. Don't count out Israel they have done the impossible many a times.

There are plans Beazzz. None of them involve unilateral Israeli action.

 

What plans? appeasement. That is our current administrations foign policy in a nutshell.

No I did not forget. First of all what part of Geography did you not understand. 

 

The US troops In Iraq are spread out, and in a case of war agaianst Iran would be on the offensive, and there is no target in Iraq that is as valuable as Soul in terms of economy. 

 

Plus the human toll of a artillary strike on soul from the North and the same from Iran on Iraq is not the same deal, not even close.

 

Like I said a war between North Korea  and America would only take place if the North atacked first, and before we can respond with our full might, Soul will be in ruins and maybe a quarter of a million people would be dead and wounded. If there is going to be a war between Iran vs America/Israel, we would be the ones attacking first.

 

We already have enough troops there for the initial part of a invasion and we would certinally have 3 or 4 CSG their before we hit. Our Navy will have control of the seas within a matter of a day or two and our Air Force will have Air Superiority within a week or so.

 

Now as to the Nuclear program, remember Iraq and Syria, it has been done before, maybe Israel can't take out the entire program like those two, but it can set it back for sure. Don't count out Israel they have done the impossible many a times.

usajoe,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. No sense getting into a circular argument. If you think that what we have in Iraq now is sufficient to wage war on Iran then I just don't know what to tell you. What I can tell you is that if I had to volunteer for another deployment as I did in 2006, and I had a crystal ball that said, hey, Israel is going to launch a surprise attack into Iran in Summer 2009 and War would break out in Korea, and I had to choose a station. I'd choose Korea. My knowledge of the ME is very current and I can say a lot has changed since 2003-2005. We could win a war against N Korea. That's a war against a nation state and is the kind of opponent we are set up to fight. A a 4GW Jihad hell where you have Shia vs Sunni vs Jew vs West that last for 10 years and involved NBC weapons? I'll pass.

I'm not saying that Iran shouldn't get nailed if it doesn't cooperate but the timing and methods you are suggesting are not going to work in my opinion so I respectfully disagree and urge you to remain patient and let the fountain pens and ballots do the fighting for now. 

-DA 

Well I admit I don't know a lot about what the plans may or may not be as far as Iran goes. But one thing I am certain of, YOU sure as hell do not know what Israel has planned to defend itself DA. For that matter, neither does OB and company. Israel is no fool and they would never give away their intentions to a clown and traitor like Obama. Even a blind person can see Obamas plans. It's have Israel give away all they hold dear, apoligyze and suck it up for team America!! Yea right. You can bet that's what Israel is gonna do lol

I tell ya DA. I consider myself patriotic as they come. It's my country right or wrong and I stand by it. But when the day comes America turns its back on/or against Israel, thats the day I turn my back on and against America for good. And don't think I am some looney fringe type with numbers that don't even add up. There are literally 10's of millions of Americans who when it comes to Israel, feel EXACTLY as I do DA.

 

Beazz

 

Beazz

I'm not saying that Iran shouldn't get nailed if it doesn't cooperate but the timing and methods you are suggesting are not going to work in my opinion so I respectfully disagree and urge you to remain patient and let the fountain pens and ballots do the fighting for now. 

I can stay patient, Iran is not a direct threat to me and my family and friends, and at the moment my homeland. Now they are a threat to the millions of Jews in Israel, who are a very close ally to my homeland. I will bet you if you were living in Israel you would have a diffrent belief my friend. I do not believe in turnning your back on your friends just becasue times might get tough, is the right road to travel. In a world where we have very few friends, I don't think we can lose any right now.

 

 

 

Israel will ruthlessly do whatever Israel feels is in its best interest. If you don't believe me ask the ghosts of the 34 crewman of the unarmed USS Liberty who were slaughtered in international waters by naval and air components of the IDF during the Six Day War. Give them access to the F-35 and the Israelis will steal, sell or corrupt what they can if they feel its in their best interests.

Read the accounts of the USS Liberty. Read the comments of Adm Moorer, Sec Dean Rusk. Ask anyone who was in the US Navy at the time from ADM to Seaman Recruit.. Everyone one of us, I was an ENS at the time and we all followed what happened then and through the years. Don't tell me about BS. Read Assault on the Liberty by James Ennes who was the OOD during the attack.  

 

 

Pull up a contemporaneous picture of the USS Liberty and tell me how after multiple low level reconnaissance flights, in clear weather, in international waters, far from any combat and under no time pressure the Israelis mis-identified a large relatively modern ship with complex fore and aft electronic masts and fore and aft large parabolic deck antennas for the small Egyptian cargo ship El Quseir they claimed to have belived she was. Now perhaps you can make a case that they thought it was a Russian intelligence ship but they never made such a claim.

Explain to me how an AWACS could identify 2 UH-60's as Iraqi and order two F-15's to down them?  Or how the most sophisticated air defense radar and system in the world could identify an Iranian Airbus as an F-14 and then engage it?

 

It's called "Fog of War"...read any account of naval combat in the Second World War where destroyers were mistaken for aviation ships...where multiple numbers of ships and a/c were destroyed in an engagement, when the actual loss rate was 0 or much smaller than claimed...again "Fog of War".

 

Take tired, adrenalized young men, at war, put them in a cockpit at a few hundred metres and moving at several hundred kilometres an hour and send them out...the wonder is more "Liberty Incidents" don't occur.

 

Bottom-Line: "Never ascribe to malice that which can be ascribed to stupidity."

As I said prior to the attack there were multiple low level fly-bys over the course of approx five hours in international waters, during clear weather and calm seas with no combat in the area. If the Israeli Air Force believed the Egyptian Navy had anything vaguely resembling the Liberty they were seriously delusional, additionally, the ship was well and clearly marked.
 

Many of the US Navy officers who reviewed and investigated the attack had combat experience in three was, WWII, Korea and even Vietnam. I suspect they were familiar with the concept of The Fog of War yet they were convinced the attack was deliberate. I'll go with their opinion especially since it agrees with mine. :)  Incidently I wonder if that attack contributed to Pres Carter's, USNA '46, antipathy towards Israel? 

This canard has been discussed ad nauseum on these pages before, so I guess it was easy for Eldnah to miss the following thread, the links therein which should be read carefully.  I you missed the recordings released by the NSA back in 2003 that picked up the IAF pilot radio transmissions:

 

 

Some highlights:

 

And a followup - newly released NSA tapes seem to back the Israeli contentions   7/9/2003 7:41:34 PM This article appeared in today's Jerusalem's Post- to summarize, the tape transcipts show that the ISraelis did indeed thin it was an Egyptian vessel attacked. This was recorded by a US spy plane in the area. link swhitebull- maybe we should just all let this rest.   Quote    Reply

swhitebull    RE:New Naval Proceedings Article on USS Liberty   7/9/2003 7:45:22 PM And this from teh Judge that successfully pried open the NSA classified files: link swhitebull - if these tapes are accurate - ans there is no reason to doubt their veracity - this shold put to rest those wsho have accused Israel of deliberately targetting the Liberty (as Ive written before, there 's a lot of fog in a war zone, and the US has snooped on its allies before, just like other country's have done). An unfortunate MISTAKE- but a mistake nonetheless.   Quote    Reply

American Kafir    RE:And a followup - newly released NSA tapes seem to back the Israeli contentions   7/10/2003 6:11:27 PM link

 

swhitebull    Latest CIA findings Released   1/13/2004 4:04:50 AM

This was on several news outlets yesterday; I picked this up from Jerusalem Post, but National Public Radio was reporting the same findings: link Jan. 13, 2004 USS 'Liberty' hit was unintentional, says CIA By JANINE ZACHARIA USS Liberty Photo: US Navy archive Advertisement Printer Friendly E-mail This Article Sign up for SMS alerts Subscribe Related Stories Pilot who bombed 'Liberty' talks to 'Post More News Israeli Jew arrested for aiding suicide bomber Assad rejects Katsav's invitation Analysis: The importance of omission Knesset endorses Sharon plan USS 'Liberty' hit was unintentional, says CIA more » Editorial Don't court Assad Out of the closet Noteworthy statistics Features Irate over rising rates Power punch girls Alice's wonderland Business News Trade deficit falls to lowest level since 1991 Kupot Holim weigh bond offerings Israel ranked 29th of 155 for economic freedom Columns The region: A veritable army of lies Interesting Times: Falling from Grace Flipside: It's all academic New documents released by the State Department relating to the period of the 1967 Six Day War include CIA memos that say Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel when it attacked the USS Liberty off the coast of the Gaza Strip on June 8, 1967, killing 34 American sailors and injuring 172. The memos say the attack was carried out "by mistake, representing gross negligence." Along with the release of the documents, the historian for the top-secret National Security Agency said Monday he believed available evidence "strongly suggested" Israel did not know it was bombarding an American ship. On Monday, the State Department hosted a conference on the 1967 war, including the Liberty incident, to mark the release of a new volume of historical papers from the Johnson Administration. The 542 declassified documents, roughly 1100 pages in length, were culled from the archives of the White House, State Department, Pentagon and various intelligence agencies. They cover May through November 1967. Historians said the new documentation included little new on the Liberty incident itself. It is still not known, for example, why the USS Liberty, an intelligence-gathering ship, was allowed to linger so close to the war zone, or why Israel was not informed of its presence in the area. Analysts said however that while its original mission remains murky, it was now evident that the ship was not sent to spy on Israel since the bulk of linguists on board spoke Arabic or Russian and the ship had no Hebrew translators to monitor Israeli communications in real time. The most significant documents, transcripts of tapes of communications between an Israeli air controller and helicopter pilots sent to rescue the wounded from the attack, were released last July. Those intercepts showed that the Israeli rescue pilots first identified the ship as Egyptian and gradually realized, after spotting a US flag, that the ship was American. "A CIA memo of June 13 reported they had no intercepts from the attacking planes and torpedo boats, but that the helicopter pilots' communication left little doubt that the Israelis had failed to identify the Liberty as a US ship," said Harriet Schwar, editor of the newly released volume. "A follow-up CIA memo on June 21st noted that the Liberty had been identified prior to the attacks but concluded that the Israelis were not aware at the time of the attack that they were attacking a US ship. It concluded that the attack was not made in malice, but was by mistake, representing gross negligence. The Defense Intelligence Agency reached a similar conclusion," Schwar added. David Hatch, the National Security Agency Historian, said of the intercepted communications of the rescue pilots: "While falling short of proof, the intercepts to me suggest strongly the Israeli attackers did not know they were aiming deadly fire at a vessel belonging to the United States. The intercepted communications between the air controller at Hatzor and helicopters dispatched in the wake of the attack show a progressive reversal of perception on their part." Included on the panel was James Bamford, an investigative journalist, who has written that Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty spy ship. Jay Cristol, a Miami-based judge who has written a book arguing that the attack was a mistake was also present, as was Michel Oren, author of a book on the Six Day War. Bamford stood by his assertion that Israel had deliberately attacked the ship and that the US and Israel had orchestrated a "big cover up." He read from a recent declaration by Ward Boston, who served as senior legal counsel for the Navy's Court of Inquiry into the Liberty attack. That Court concluded there was insufficient information to make a judgment about why Israel attacked the ship. In his affidavit, Boston says, he and the Court were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy's investigation, and that both he and the Court's president, Admiral Isaac Kidd, "believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew." "I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of mistaken identity. In particular the recent publication of Jay Cristol's book, "The Liberty Incident," twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack," Boston says. Cristol's presentation for the Liberty panel was prepared in conjunction with Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache' at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel and advised the US, and John Hadden who was then the CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv. Both Castle and Hadden agree that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake. Michael Oren, in his presentation, reviewed some of the mistakes Israel had made during the Liberty attack. Earlier in the morning of June 8, the Israelis had surveyed and identified a ship in the area as the USS Liberty. A neutral green marker was placed on a model to represent the Liberty's position. Two hours later, the marker was removed since the ship's position would have changed by then and a new senior Israeli official came on duty who was not informed of the Liberty's presence in the area, Oren explained. The removal of the marker, a miscalculation of the speed at which the Liberty was traveling that would have indicated it was not a warship, and a breakdown in communication between the Israeli Navy and Army were all Israeli errors that contributed to orders to attack the ship. The former Naval attach , Castle, said after the panel that he knew personally the Israeli official who had removed the marker and that it had "ruined him" professionally and personally. The Israelis had no motive to attack the ship, he added. The panel, which was open to the public, became raucous at times when survivors of the Liberty attack and a relative of a sailor killed in the incident yelled out to protest that the panel included two people who represented Israel's position, while survivors were not invited to participate. swhitebull - still somewhat mixed conclusions, but definitely leans towards the theory that Israel did NOT realize it was US - intercepts of air-to-ground communications with IAF pilots confirm this. One petty officer from the Liberty attempted to question Oren's credentials, saying someone who would have been "in diapers" at the time of the attack could not effectively analyze the incident. Others slammed Oren for being Israeli and suggested he could therefore not be impartial. swhitebull