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Subject: F-22 pulled from Paris Airshow
DarthAmerica    6/16/2009 10:36:39 PM
PARIS (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force has pulled its premiere F-22 fighter jet from the Paris Air Show, citing other demands on its time, said a spokesman for Lockheed Martin Corp, which builds the Raptor.

Spokesman Christopher Trippick said on Monday that the F-22 also would not make an appearance at the Royal International Air Tattoo, the world's largest military air show, to be held next month in Britain.

The F-22 made its first international air show appearance at the Farnborough Air Show last year, a 12-minute flight that generated a great deal of buzz. It also flew at the Royal International Air Tattoo.

Trippick said the Air Force decision was based on availability, but had no further information.

But European industry executives said there might have been concerns over whether the stealth plane would be exposed to radar trying to unlock its secrets.

Lockheed's F-117 stealth fighter made an appearance at the 1991 Paris Air Show, but two years later, the Clinton administration boycotted the appearance of any U.S. military aircraft at the show.

One industry executive, who asked not to be named, said the French government had reportedly used its ultra low-frequency, long-range radar to track the aircraft on its approach to the airfield, sparking concerns among U.S. officials.

The Obama administration said in April that it would only order four more of the radar-evading fighters, capping production at 187 planes.

Some U.S. lawmakers are pushing to repeal a law banning exports of the aircraft to keep the production line running a little longer.

But Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz last week said F-22 exports also faced other significant obstacles, including the cost to protect or remove classified equipment from the aircraft, and a likely break in production before any exports could be approved, which would raise the cost.

Industry executives said the U.S. government may have decided it would be imprudent to bring the fighter to the air show, since the export ban is still in effect and especially since Defense Secretary Robert Gates has told close U.S. allies like Japan that it is not for sale.

(Reporting by Andrea Shalal-Esa with additional reporting by Tim Hepher in Paris; Editing by Lisa Von Ahn and Maureen Bavdek)
 
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usajoe1    BW   6/17/2009 11:36:07 PM
You are clearly not Brazilian , the Gripen is the worse bet , did you check the size of Brazil and Brazil 's waters ???
The Gripen is faaar too short legged for a start . It is a no-no .
 
Let me guess, the Rafale is a better choice right? The new Gripen NG that is being proposed for the Brazilians is going to have a new engine that is going to give it the abiliaty to supercruise, and it is at least 20% cheaper then the Rafale. Plus this model is going to end up being a better A2A fighter then the current Rafale that is available for export. Now, clearly the SH is the best overall bird from the trio, but I think the darkhorse is going to be the tech. transfer issue with the Hornet, and that is why I think the Gripen is going to win this one.
 
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usajoe1    BW   6/18/2009 12:35:28 AM
 
usajoe :
""the India deal has no chance , there are two real contenders in that competition , the SH and the Mig""
 
Two real contenders ? Do you think that Rafale can 't deal with Pakistani or Chinese Fighters as well as the SH or the Mig-35 ? You are mistaking .
I said that we have very little chance to get the deal and instead to bash again , you should have acknowledge my honesty .
But you can 't because as soon as you see a BW post , you fire at it whatever the content is , just for the sake of it .
I hope you have fun because I do , you are so easy to walk on .
 
Listen carefully to what I have to say and don't put words in my mouth. I never said the Rafale can't deal with Pakistan's air threat, there you go again with your selective thinking. As for China, the Rafale can't deal with the newer Chinese Sukhois in BVR or WVR combat. BVR The Sukhoi has a more powerful radar and better A2A missiles. WVR combat the Sukhoi has a huge advantage with the HMS and the R-73. This was pointed out many times over. As for the Mig 35, India already has similar fighters and it would not have that much of a trouble converting to the Mig. Plus you can by two Migs for the price of one Rafale, and  have about the same kind of capabilities. The SH is not even a question, it is better then the Rafale in every single aspect. That is why there is 0% chance of the Rafale winning the competition. I will not be shocked if the Rafale is the the first fighter to be thrown out of the competition. Look the Rafale might be ok for France's needes, but most countries do not want a fighter that costs almost 100 million dollars and gets outclassed by most 4th genaration aircraft in BVR and WVR role. The Rafale might be better in EW, survivability and a better deep strike bird than most Russian fighters but that is not what most countries want. If they pay that kind of money they want the A2A capabilities to. That is why the Rafale is in this predicament and the Typhoon, SH, Sukhoi, and even the Gripen  are where they are, as far as exports are concerned. Now as far as the name calling is concerned, I already told you what I think about that, only cowards talk trash when they are thousands of miles away, grow up! You know BW the diffrence between me and you is i'm not a homer like you. If you go back and look at other posts you would see that I have defended the French Navy, when 5th guards and me were going at it, and also defended the leclerc tank when people were bashing it, but when it comes to French tech. you start posting blindly, and that is why every one gets on you. If the French had made the Typhoon and the Brits and Germans the Rafale, I would be saying the same thing about the British and Germans and would give the French their dues.
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 12:44:53 AM
usajoe , this is a F-22 thread .
 
Let 's carry on this discussion somewhere else .
 
Cheers .
 
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Jimme       6/18/2009 4:38:38 AM
If the Idea was to prevent intel gathering by the French and others couldn't the USAF have put external attachments to the F-22s to completely change its RCS as well as other things to make it a lot more louder, visible and other wise detectable then it would normally be? then send paintball missiles to the "anti-stealth" radars?
 
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Herald12345    You are an idiot.   6/18/2009 4:58:24 AM

Herald :


""Apparently tried and failed. For once US countermeasures seem to have lived up to the hype.""

 

Huh ? I don 't think so . You cannot jam an OTH radar Herald and certainly not with a F-22 .Try to jam JORN or Nostradamus radars ... Then we also have light and portable low-frequency radars who can be loaded on a Jeep and set-up in less than 20 minutes by a two men team . We also use Cellphone waveband coverage to detect and track stealth aircrafts .


Just to say that jamming those different means in Peace time is impossible Herald , so would you care to back up what you just said ?

 

Cheers . 


 






I* can make a radio show you whatever I want it too.
 
Herald
 
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 4:50:47 PM
Herald :
""I* can make a radio show you whatever I want it too.""
 
You call me an idiot and you dare posting such non sense ???
Me , I am telling you that your F-22 and B-2 are tracked 2000km away by our low-frequency radars .
Our long range radars do not provide any intels on RCSs , they only survey the sky . 
Over the French territory , this is a different story Herald ...
You are an idiot .
 
Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    Yep.    6/18/2009 6:20:38 PM
What is a radar, poster?

How many ways can I fool it?

More ways than you can even imagine down to point blank range when you see the bird with your naked eyes..

Don't try to assume that you know about this, truck driver. YOU DON'T.
 
Herald 
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 6:41:39 PM
Bla bla bla ...
 
Cheers .
 
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Beazz       6/18/2009 7:48:30 PM

Beazz :


""BW,
The fact that France is such an open and blatant spy against a long standing friend and ally to the point your friend cannot even show a spectacular airplane to the citizens of your country is nothing to be proud of. It's pathetic is what is is. I'd be embarrased if I were French!""

 

Let me tell you a little true story Beazz : At the 2001 Red Flag , France sent 8 aircrafts : 4 M2000Ds and 4 M2000Cs .


The 2nd morning , the French maintenance team came to the M2000Cs 's bunker 2 hours earlier than previously planned for additional work . They found the bunker locked and an official with 2 MP guards told them to wait outside a moment for "Security reasons (?)" . When the official did let them pass , the French team discovered than some external panels and the tail fin jammer were badly screw-back , like if the job has been done in a hurry .


The French did protest and ask what was going on but in vain . Since that day , every French aircraft at Red Flag is guarded by French AirForce commandos 24/24 .


Talking about spying ...

Did the USA and the USAF get embarrased ? Not at all ...

 

Cheers .


 




 

 


BW,
I think you watch to many James Bond moves lol
Cheers
 
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Das Kardinal       6/18/2009 7:54:12 PM




Beazz :






""BW,

The fact that France is such an open and blatant spy against a long standing friend and ally to the point your friend cannot even show a spectacular airplane to the citizens of your country is nothing to be proud of. It's pathetic is what is is. I'd be embarrased if I were French!""



 



Let me tell you a little true story Beazz : At the 2001 Red Flag , France sent 8 aircrafts : 4 M2000Ds and 4 M2000Cs .






The 2nd morning , the French maintenance team came to the M2000Cs 's bunker 2 hours earlier than previously planned for additional work . They found the bunker locked and an official with 2 MP guards told them to wait outside a moment for "Security reasons (?)" . When the official did let them pass , the French team discovered than some external panels and the tail fin jammer were badly screw-back , like if the job has been done in a hurry .






The French did protest and ask what was going on but in vain . Since that day , every French aircraft at Red Flag is guarded by French AirForce commandos 24/24 .






Talking about spying ...



Did the USA and the USAF get embarrased ? Not at all ...



 



Cheers .






 










 



 







BW,

I think you watch to many James Bond moves lol

Cheers



Yeah right. The righteous US of A would never ever spy on their allies would they ? 
<sigh>

BW what I think usajoe meant by "the two real contenders" was political/economical reasons mostly, not the plane's own characteristics.
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 8:00:56 PM
Das Kardinal :
""BW what I think usajoe meant by "the two real contenders" was political/economical reasons mostly, not the plane's own characteristics.""
 
Ok , let 's just say that you are right . Just to give him a chance .
 
Cheers .
 
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Herald12345       6/19/2009 2:14:39 AM

Bla bla bla ...

 

Cheers .


Retransmitted deceptive signals in both freq and amplitude, blanking, burnout, ghosting, transmitted sidelobe distortion, half phasing,.......... haven't got a clue as to what I'm telling you eh?  
 
Yeah  Blah, Blah, Blah.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Das Kardinal       6/21/2009 1:02:29 AM
The whole "we're afraid the French will radar-scan the F22" explanation feels wacky. There's now way a demonstration aircraft would fly there "clean" as in full-stealth configuration. If only because it has to insert into normal traffic. 
 
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gf0012-aust       6/21/2009 1:19:30 AM

The whole "we're afraid the French will radar-scan the F22" explanation feels wacky. There's now way a demonstration aircraft would fly there "clean" as in full-stealth configuration. If only because it has to insert into normal traffic. 
It's like deja-vu.  This business also happened when the F-117 was sent to Farnborough.  The silly fan clubbers were carrying on how a Rapier Mk 2 locked onto the F-117 as it did a pass, and were apparently oblivious to the fact that it was flying "emissions loud" with everything "retractable" up and like proud mary... :) - and the fact that it was being sent over probably some of the heaviest monitored air space in europe at the time 
It made the teenagers carry on for weeks about how good the Rapier was.  Some of them still probably believe it to this day...
 If Nostradamus can only reach out for 200km then the french have a bit more to worry about than trying to harvest and map the emissions profile of an F-22

 
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Bluewings12       6/21/2009 10:15:29 PM
You forgot a "0" , Nostradamus can detect anything flying 2500km away and start a decent track at 2000km .
 
Cheers .
 
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