The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 23, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009


BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter


By JUN HONGO
Staff writer
Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo.

The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities.





But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive.

Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan.

The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach."

The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment.

As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue.

"Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions.

By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said.

In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development.

BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said.

Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued."

Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked.

Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power.

Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle.

P-3C patrols start
Kyodo News
A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said.

The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March.

The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry.

After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base.

The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12   NEXT
gf0012-aust       6/24/2009 8:27:52 AM
again, all this fluffery about the F-22 and japan is not supported by evidence and behaviour coming from within japan

the japanese have said point blank that their future is now tied up with joint development - they're not interested in sole trading their own platform.  that means no samurai jets, no ninja jets, no mt fuji specials, and no mech warriors with F-22 internals to take on a chinese godzilla.  they also don't want to buy a hotrodded gen 4.5 as they also want to go to 5th gen in a normal procurement cycle (0-15 years from selection)

to quote the DepDir of the Okazaki:
"Japans only option is to proceed with joint research and development of state of the art weapons and defence systems with other countries"

this claim that they're going to invest in an indigenous solution is challenged and regularly contradicted by JSDF personnel who attend as observers to the JSF prog etc...  They will not get any tech sharing on the F-22 even if it was available - because the damn jet can't be dumbed down in a cost effective manner - and the Diet (Japanese Parlt) is sure as hell not going to allow them to pay the alleged (and those figures quoted  by Inouye are absolute nonsense) 2 to 2.5 times the  ticket price of an early build JSF.  Unless the manufacturer decides to completely redesign some critical components we know that they can't do an export.  That would effectively mean a new plane - not just a block release.  It would be a bigger sleight of hand than the Hornet/Super Hornet stunt pulled to get that plane past Congress.

Now unless POTUS or SECDEF intends sacking USAF Chief of Staff Schwartz, then he also has a pretty clear view of where the JSF will sit.  He's made it clear.  No more F-22's, and no more Gen 4.5's to keep the ANG happy as a stalling manouvre.

 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       6/24/2009 10:49:48 AM
@ gf0012-aust

> again, all this fluffery about the F-22 and japan is not supported by evidence and behaviour coming from within japan

Behavior coming from within Japan is that Japan is only interested in F-22, and anything else is unacceptable, unless the US pushes Japanese hand into buying Typhoon. This comes all the way up from the defense minister and drumrolled by powerful conservative politicians.

>  they also don't want to buy a hotrodded gen 4.5 as they also want to go to 5th gen in a normal procurement cycle (0-15 years from selection)

Shin Shin is 5th gen.

> They will not get any tech sharing on the F-22 even if it was available

That's fine to them, as long as Japan has a sizable fleet to overpower Chinese and Korean airforces.

> - because the damn jet can't be dumbed down in a cost effective manner - and the Diet (Japanese Parlt) is sure as hell not going to allow them to pay the alleged 2 to 2.5 times the  ticket price of an early build JSF.

Twice the plane, twice the price is acceptable. Recall that Japanese are price-insensitive in their purchasing decisions; they pay top yen(dollar) for the goods of highest quality.

F-22 is to F-35 what a Lambo is to a Civic. Paying twice the price of a Civic to get a Lambo is a bargain in the eyes of Japanese war planners.

BTW, here is the Congressional Report on the subject of F-22 export to Japan dated three months ago. < link >The report mentions that Korea will automatically buy F-22 if Japan buys, so the export market would be quite sizable, 120 units minimum(80 for Japan in FX-I and FX-II split contracts, and 40 for Korea) between just these two. That should keep F-22 line open for a quite some time and make all the Senators from 44 states hosting F-22 contractors/suppliers happy.
 
Quote    Reply

Lynstyne       6/24/2009 2:30:32 PM
IFR
 
I Follow Roads surely
 
All the whatever they were but now become rafale threads have merged in my mind so wether the following were here or there i dont know
 
France Deploying meteor first  - i suspect they will firstly because they need to secondly because now france has a stake in the missile they will do there usual and sod everything up until its done there way (having spent years working in france for airbus I have witnessed this many times)
 
Typhoon came first in the A2A part of the Korea competition now wether this is the case or not is not relevant - but the fact you posted it  BW are you now admitting the Tiffy is not the lame duck you so strongly imply nor is it a poor 2nd to the rafale in A2A.
 
Typhoon coming last in Air to mud - not a shocker really .
 
Corruption and Bribes - im sure the US did it, as did France and probably the UK - Ive found the whole BAE - Saudi scandle an excercise in Hypocricy - bribes are the way business is done - for the competition loosers to then cry foul is sour grapes at best.
 
Supersonic agility-- i may be completely wrong but i was under the impression that with a basic (4+2) warload the typhoon had demonstrated supersonic agility (or at least far in excess of any preceding aircraft). i rather thought it was a claim to fame  however im happy to be corrected.
 
Q for herald   regarding my question about IR + radar  Mica   weeks ago.
 
My understanding of youre answer is
 
IR and radar missiles have different flight profiles  the seeker could be swapped out as simply as i suggested (and i see no reason that wouldnt work) and the flight profile could be modified to suit with software.
 
The problem is that aerodynamically ithis doesnt work the different profiles require a different missile body so the mica is either optimised for 1 or comprimised for both.
 
the f16 crash - the pilot screwed the pooch he was to low to slow to recover any aircraft in that position is in trouble
I trust having made such a bloody stupid error  someone tore him a new arse
 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       6/24/2009 3:34:25 PM
@ Lynstyne

> Typhoon came first in the A2A part of the Korea competition now wether this is the case or not is not relevant

True, Typhoon ranked 1st in A2A, but the Korean Airforce was looking for a long-range strike fighter at that time, as well as how much tech transfer would be made for utilization in KFX project. This is why Rafale competed with F-15E in F-X I competition until the end, because Dassault promised the most comprehensive scope of tech transfer, even if Rafale was considered inferior to Typhoon in A2A and F-15E in strike missions.

Times have changed this time around and Korean Airforce is looking for 60 air-superiority fighters in F-X III competition this time, with Typhoon being the leading candidate at the moment(The leading candidate automatically changes to F-22 the moment Japan nears F-22 order placement). Boeing is pushing F-15SE to Korean government on the ground that it lived up to past tech transfer promises and that it would fully cooperate in making KFX live up to its planned spec, a 5th-gen fighter positioned in between F-22 and F-35, that is. EADS is pushing Typhoon Trenche 3 on the ground that this is the best air-superiority fighter on the market(until F-22 becomes available for export, that is). Lockheed Martin fighter division(Not other divisions of Lockheed Martin) won many enemies within Korean government officials with its restrictive terms during the T-50 program and F-35 is not considered a serious contender accordingly to the dismay of certain F-35 fans here.

Thus there are more to foreign fighter purchase decisions than sheer performance and cost. For some governments, it's the amount of kickbacks. For others, how much tech transfer is to be made.
 
Quote    Reply

Lynstyne       6/24/2009 4:05:40 PM
coming last in A2G isnt unexpected given the competition
 
The F15 has evolved from being arguably the premier fighter of its era into an excellent all rounder.
 
the rafale was designed as a fighter bomber from the start
As a multirole fighter the Typhoon is currently a non starter given time it will (hopefully) become a reaonable strike bird but at this time no
 
Quote    Reply

Lynstyne       6/24/2009 4:14:54 PM
sorry forgot to add
 
re japan and derated f22
 
i personally cannot see how thats possible without major structural and material changes;
 
but if we suppose for a moment it is possible im not convinced the resultant aircraft will hold sufficient advantage over its competitors.
 
personally id like the F22  but if the choice was a derated f22 or a competitor -well i reckon id save the money, risk and development time, and just go buy the Typhoon .
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       6/24/2009 5:05:26 PM


Q for herald   regarding my question about IR + radar  Mica   weeks ago. 
 
I remember.

My understanding of your answer is

IR and radar missiles have different flight profiles  the seeker could be swapped out as simply as i suggested (and i see no reason that wouldnt work) and the flight profile could be modified to suit with software.
 
Uh no..

Each missile should be optimized to use its most energy efficient profile to use its intercept logic. IR missiles use proportional lead logics and CHASE  the target. Radar seeker missiles use a predict lead where they either race to meet or are dropped to meet the target depending on the target's future  predicted position. The missile is either a chaser or a meeter. If it is a meeter it uses its potential energy over time for range and emphasizes pointability at a meeting making it also a lobber. If its a chaser, it has to turn constantly to follow the image in its seeker FoV.
 
The best solution is not to try to take a missile that has a lot of fins and strakes for drag, loses velocity rapidly becaise of its excesasive need for lift and turn, and stick a radar on it as a seeker. That is a stupid solution and shows basically stupid engineering 
 
The problem is that aerodynamically this doesnt work the different profiles require a different missile body so the mica is either optimised for 1 or comprimised for both.

 The MICA as a fat IR chase missile, has two major defects. Its nose gets too hot for the crappy cryp chiller to give a good temperature contrast so that the IR sensor can easily see a hotspot against its actual local ambient background temperature. Bad enough, but the crup-chiller fails completerly after 15 seconds so that the sensor becomes ineffective after about 20-25+ seconds flyout. More or less, this means that the IR MICA goes BLIND about 30,000+ meters out. Shrug, its good enough for a self defense missile against the PRCs and the rock worshippers , but if you rely on that missile against a RUSSIAN or Indian Sukhoi, you DIE.  

As for the radar ATG MICA, I already mentioned that it cannot update worth a damn and it chase to race to meet so it can put the tartget within bthe muopic and narrow cone of the MICA seeker. Three seconds early or late for an AMRAAM in average and the AMRAAM misses. The MICA seeker has propoertionally about half that window for its FoV conic, and it has to chase to meet the target,.since it was designed as a proportional lead chase missile-even with the radar seeker. For the rest of us that actually means to guide a MICA midcourse as it adjusts to a maneuvering target, the only methods, the French could use, was retransmission command guidance; or semi-active radar homing guidance. Since the French never had the first radar missile match that ever worked right, and this was their second real crack at the other (SARH update) its no wonder that Thales, MBDA, and Dassault screwed everything up so badly.  
 
The AdA prefers the IR Mica as their base load A2A missile since they know, (or art least they hope) the IR MICA will work at the self defense ranges against the second rate stuff they expect to fight.
 
The radar ATG MICA missile, they realize, is junk only fit to export to the gullible and foolish. 
 
 Herald


 
Quote    Reply

Lynstyne       6/24/2009 5:28:55 PM
hence Frances interest in Meteor  
 
- im getting a bit narked at this being hereldad (in various forums and if ive been informed correctly some publications) as a new french weapon
 
We may have a slight cross purpose regarding mica
 
when i say the seeker swap is doable i mean from a completely electronic point of view and that different software would allow the missile to  (attempt to) fly 2 different profiles. again from an electrical point of veiw.
 
scratch that  the thought occurs that the flight profile probably cannot be changed by software as to much is dependent upon the physical charecteristics of the missile.
 
I assure you i thoroughly accept youre argument that in the real world Mica doesnt work  - its a poor comprimise in an area you need an edge
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       6/24/2009 5:31:23 PM


@ gf0012-aust: > again, all this fluffery about the F-22 and japan is not supported by evidence and behaviour coming from within japan
slowman > Behavior coming from within Japan is that Japan is only interested in F-22, and anything else is unacceptable, unless the US pushes Japanese hand into buying Typhoon. This comes all the way up from the defense minister and drumrolled by powerful conservative politicians.

and yet they japanese have made it pretty clear that they don't subscribe to getting a new 4.5 gen aircraft into their orbat which will create a logistics line item nightmare..  again, they have a tight budget - it's not aladdins cave and they're not going to be chucking their readies into an indigenous platform where they have no relevant experience except in DSP - and even that is not going to be useful for a 5th gen manned combat  aircraft.

@ gf0012-aust: >  they also don't want to buy a hotrodded gen 4.5 as they also want to go to 5th gen in a normal procurement cycle (0-15 years from selection)

slowman > Shin Shin is 5th gen.

again, contradicted by their observors in Brussels at the JSF sessions.  The commentary from Okazawa is atypical of their background belief.

- No money for indigenous development to develop that platform in the threat cycle

- No inherent capability to build and deliver a 5th gen without considerable assistance at the systems integration level - and foreign material dependant as they don't have any identified ready capability that could be utilised.  eg radar systems, ewarfare systems, weapons synthesis issues, materials science issues, 

- NO experience in designing or developing flat panel contour arrays, no experience in dealing with titanium structures outside of their submarines, 

- Not one iota of evidence that they have even gone serious outside of fan club commentary on line art drawings dribbled into the public arena.

gf0012-aust: > They will not get any tech sharing on the F-22 even if it was available

slowman > That's fine to them, as long as Japan has a sizable fleet to overpower Chinese and Korean airforces.

Outside of nukes, they can already belt the chinese into machine dust.  Thats at a naval and airforce level.  man for man at a landforces level, I'd be betting on the japanese if they all happened to land on the same island at the same time.

- They have in very real terms, the second most powerful navy in the world (ignoring nuke weapons delivery)

- They could go nuclear with a change of political heart within 3 months - and have the capacity to warload their material in under two months - they already have the capacity to miniaturise and place on 2 stage hypersonics - they've been happily playing with their hypersonic program in the middle of australia for the last 3 years.

Why do you think that 2 stage hypersonics are attractive weapons?  It?s a whole lot cheaper dealing with a cross sea threat at a SAM level.  Cheaper, better response, build, reaction ratio.



gf0012-aust: > - because the damn jet can't be dumbed down in a cost effective manner - and the Diet (Japanese Parlt) is sure as hell not going to allow them to pay the alleged 2 to 2.5 times the  ticket price of an early build JSF.

slowman: > Twice the plane, twice the price is acceptable. Recall that Japanese are price-insensitive in their purchasing decisions; they pay top yen(dollar) for the goods of highest quality.

No they're not.  They've publicly said that they need to spend smarter, that they need to work with new partners, that they need to share research and development, that they can no longer go the indigenous path as it?s a vehicle of nationalistic sophistry at the expense of technology development.  Bang for buck means.  US for aircraft tech, Australia for hypersonic weapons research, UK and US for naval systems, french for some software design tools etc.....  They're smart enough to realise that they need to leverage their own in-country strengths with external solutions to balance their weaknesses.

slowman: > F-22 is to F-35 what a Lambo is to a Civic. Paying twice the price of a Civic to get a Lambo is a bargain in the eyes of Japanese war planners.

and yet those japanese who attend Brussels have a whole lot different view of the world than someone making grand claims on the internet about their intent - when there is more than enough evidence that they take a somewhat more circumspect pragmatic view of the world.

slowman: > BTW, here is the Congressional Report on the subject of F-22 export to Japan dated three months ago. <link >The report mentions that Korea will automatically buy F-22 if Japan buys, so the export market would be quite sizable, 120 units minimum(80 for Japan in FX-I and FX-II split contracts, and 40 for Korea) between just these two. That should keep F-22 line open for a quite some time and make all the Senators from 44 states hosting F-22 contractors/suppliers happy.

 

and again, it means zero because there are very real concerns that the enthusiastic F-22 lobby brigade selectively ignore. 

 

once more with exasperation and diminishing patience:

 

1) 1)    you can't dumb down the F-22 economically to make an export release.  It is a platform that has fused systems in place.  the very reason why Israel can't get a dumbed down JSF is the very reason why you can't get a dumbed down F-22.  The synthesis of the aircraft systems has a degree of interdepedancy.  The F-22 lacks the modularity of the JSF, it more importantly has a significant through life support problem for some critical components which the USAF understandable will want to keep as a war reserve support issue.  

2)    To get around that problem means development and redesign of some of those core components - and again, the Japanese (if they were dumb enough to pay double for a detuned air superiority asset) are hardly going to be be keen to let the Sth Koreans share in the spoils of their hard earned spend.  Now unless they buy a run of at least 200 aircraft, then its not even remotely cost effective to do so.  On top of which, again, this might look like an F-22 on the outside, but would have to be a completely different aircraft on the inside.  

3)    That means an entire recertification process, that means systems, electronics, flight dynamics, weapons certfiication, interoperability issues with tri-service partners in blue-flag type scenarios etc would need recert and sign off.  Thats not in the normal development cycle - and way outside a delivery window for the japanese to muscle up to the chinese in 2020-2025

Again, what would Congress know about the cost of an export F-22 when none of the Congressmen enthusiastically spruicking opportunity  have the faintest idea of what an export build would cost, no idea of Japanese through life costs, no idea of what can be discussed (and they can carry on as much as they like discussing and releasing unclass material which has no reality parameters enbedded to govern the debate).  They have no idea what an export build would require to get past Obey Amendments, to get past existing ITARs caveats etc? and btw, those ITARs caveats on some F-22 tech mean that the bird will be so dumbed down that there would be a serious bang for buck question as to whether you would even consider going down that path.  It?s like having a Seawolf and taking out the combat system, or USS Florida and taking out the VLS, or a UK or French sub and removing their signature management tech.  In your case ? its akin to getting your Lambo and replacing the V12 with a Toyota Prius engine and still expecting it to behave like a Lambo 
 
Quote    Reply

Lynstyne       6/24/2009 5:42:04 PM

hence Frances interest in Meteor  

 

- im getting a bit narked at this being hereldad (in various forums and if ive been informed correctly some publications) as a new french weapon

 

We may have a slight cross purpose regarding mica

 

when i say the seeker swap is doable i mean from a completely electronic point of view and that different software would allow the missile to  (attempt to) fly 2 different profiles. again from an electrical point of veiw.

 

scratch that  the thought occurs that the flight profile probably cannot be changed by software as to much is dependent upon the physical charecteristics of the missile.

 

I assure you i thoroughly accept youre argument that in the real world Mica doesnt work  - its a poor comprimise in an area you need an edge


not trying to be obtuse just trying to understand  an area i have no knowledge of
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    typos.   6/24/2009 6:11:20 PM

Q for herald   regarding my question about IR + radar  Mica   weeks ago. 

 

I remember.




My understanding of your answer is



IR and radar missiles have different flight profiles  the seeker could be swapped out as simply as i suggested (and i see no reason that wouldn't work) and the flight profile could be modified to suit with software.

 

Uh no..




Each missile should be optimized to use its most energy efficient profile to use its intercept logic. IR missiles use proportional lead logics and CHASE  the target. Radar seeker missiles use a predict lead where they either race to meet or are dropped to meet the target depending on the target's future  predicted position. The missile is either a chaser or a meeter. If it is a meeter then it uses its potential energy over time for range and emphasizes pointability at a meeting making it also a lobber. If its a chaser, then it has to turn constantly to follow the image in its seeker FoV.


 

The best solution is not to try to take a missile that has a lot of fins and strakes for drag, loses velocity rapidly because of its excessive need for lift and turn, and stick a radar on it as a seeker. That is a stupid solution and shows basically stupid engineering 


 

The problem is that aerodynamically this doesn't work the different profiles require a different missile body so the mica is either optimized for 1 or compromised for both.



 The MICA as a fat IR chase missile, has two major defects. Its nose gets too hot for the crappy cryo chiller to give a good temperature contrast so that the IR sensor can easily see a hotspot against its actual local ambient background temperature. Bad enough, but the cryo-chiller fails completely after 15 seconds so that the sensor becomes ineffective after about 20-25+ seconds flyout. More or less, this means that the IR MICA goes BLIND about 30,000+ meters out. Shrug, its good enough for a self defense missile against the PRCs and the rock worshipers, but if you rely on that missile against a RUSSIAN or Indian Sukhoi, you DIE.  

As for the radar ATG MICA, I already mentioned that it cannot update worth a damn, and it chases to race to meet so it can put the target within the myopic and narrow cone of the MICA seeker. Three seconds early or late for an AMRAAM in average and the AMRAAM misses. The MICA seeker has proportionally about half that window for its FoV conic, and it has to chase to meet the target,.since it was designed as a proportional lead chase missile-even with the radar seeker. For the rest of us; that actually means to guide a MICA midcourse as it adjusts to a maneuvering target, the only methods, the French could use, was retransmission command guidance; or semi-active radar homing guidance. Since the French never had the first radar missile match that ever worked right, and this was their second real crack at the other (SARH update) its no wonder that Thales, MBDA, and Dassault screwed everything up so badly.  

The AdA prefers the IR Mica as their base load A2A missile since they know, (or art least they hope) the IR MICA will work at the self defense ranges against the second rate stuff they expect to fight.

The radar ATG MICA missile, they realize, is junk only fit to export to the gullible and foolish. 

 Herald

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    typos.   6/24/2009 9:43:29 PM




hence Frances interest in Meteor  



 



- im getting a bit narked at this being hereldad (in various forums and if ive been informed correctly some publications) as a new french weapon



 



We may have a slight cross purpose regarding mica



 



when i say the seeker swap is doable i mean from a completely electronic point of view and that different software would allow the missile to  (attempt to) fly 2 different profiles. again from an electrical point of veiw.



 



scratch that  the thought occurs that the flight profile probably cannot be changed by software as to much is dependent upon the physical charecteristics of the missile.



 



I assure you i thoroughly accept youre argument that in the real world Mica doesnt work  - its a poor comprimise in an area you need an edge






not trying to be obtuse just trying to understand  an area i have no knowledge of

The point is that a missile cannot ignore the laws of aerodynamics and physics. I know the idiots now in charge at MBDA (MATRA) wish they could ignore that fact, but the USAF went down that road already with FALCON. It didn't work. Now we use the China Lake solution of SIDEWINDER and SPARROW/AMRAAM. Sometimes you stumble around a bit, until you hit the sweet spots you discover yourself; but you'd really have to be engineering morons  not to see what the other guys do that works and not imitate them while you stumble around..

Maybe one day I will tell you about two missiles THUNDERBIRD (British) and HAWK (American) and how a copied radar turned a dud into a KILLER.
 
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       6/25/2009 9:48:28 AM
@ gf0012-aust

> - No money for indigenous development to develop that platform in the threat cycle

That's an odd comment. You have Japanese indigenous replacement for Aegis system partially implemented in Hyuga and fully implemented in 19DD destroyers. You have an assortment of indigenous Japanese  A2A and anti-ship missiles. You have Japanese indigenous replacement for P-3(No, Japanese are not buying P-8 Poseidon) and C-130. You have Shin Shin. See, Japanese like their indigenous stuff even if it costs more than imported weapons and dislike importing unless they absolutely have to.

> - No inherent capability to build and deliver a 5th gen without considerable assistance at the systems integration level

EADS and Boeing say hello.

> Outside of nukes, they can already belt the chinese into machine dust. Thats at a naval and airforce level.  man for man at a landforces level,

Navy, yes. If Japanese fleet manages to avoid 55 Chinese subs lurking around.
Airforce, not so much and this is their motivation for importing F-22.
Army, hell no. Japanese GSDF is the joke of the region.

> No they're not.  They've publicly said that they need to spend smarter

All the while funding indigenous solutions costing twice as much as imported weapons.

In the meanwhile, you win on this one this time because Obama just said he would veto any defense bill that included funding for F-22. EADS can now laugh all the way to the bank with Typhoon sales to Japan.
 
Quote    Reply

Beazz       6/25/2009 1:57:05 PM



In the meanwhile, you win on this one this time because Obama just said he would veto any defense bill that included funding for F-22. EADS can now laugh all the way to the bank with Typhoon sales to Japan.


Got a link to where Obama *just said* this? I find it hard to believe he'd risk such embarrasement over less then $2 billion. He has to know that if a bill with funding for F22's makes it to his desk that means it ALREADY has substancial Democratic support and therefore  the votes are there to over ride his veto the minute it hits his desk.
 
Quote    Reply

FJV    Energy efficient or sensor efficient?   6/25/2009 3:00:38 PM
Each missile should be optimized to use its most energy efficient profile to use its intercept logic. IR missiles use proportional lead logics and CHASE  the target. Radar seeker missiles use a predict lead where they either race to meet or are dropped to meet the target depending on the target's future  predicted position. The missile is either a chaser or a meeter.
 
Seems like the reason stated here for an IR missile to chase a target is to take full advantage of that nice hot IR emitting exhaust nozzle on jet fighters. 

Making an IR "meeting missile" should be possible IMHO, but at what costs? An IR seeker can detect a flaming hot jet nozzle from a much further distance, than an airplane 10 to 20 degrees warmer than the surrounding sky.
 
There is not much point in designing an IR missile with a state of the art expensive sensor and then have it's sensor detection range severely limited, because you insist on an predict lead logic. IMHO.
 
 
 

 
 
 

 
Quote    Reply
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy