@ gf0012-aust >  you're too stubborn to even comprehend why an export F-22 is about as remotely possible as Vladimir Putin being Michael Jacksons long lost sister...

slowman > Tell that to the Senators behind it, including Senator Jon Kyl, GOP's No. 2 senator. Clearly, GOP leadership is behind this "Let's export F-22 to Japan and save precious F-22 jobs in this terrible economic condition" movement within the Senate. I am just posting here what I have been reading elsewhere.

I applaud your enthusiasm, but reality has to bite in any debate.  the US has an administration that has already decided that it is going to refocus the way it does business with other countries,  Gates has made other slight changes such as emphasising greenwater ops over a blue water navy, point blank he has said that the USN needs to go greenwater.  considering that the USN has been since the time of Adm Towers regarded as the "sword and the shield" - then its more than just a build issue.  its a doctrine issue, its a significant political shift.  Now one doesn't have to think too hard that if the US is seriously looking at abandoning the 1000 ship navy concept, (as LCS by association forces it to do) - then its aircraft programs are going to follow a similar political line.

None of those congressman so publicly frothing and panting at the bit can change the reality that they're up against State (Clinton) and DoD (Gates) either of whom have the same philisophical view as POTUS on a thin military. 

gf0012-aust > if the US decides to sell all of their own F-22's

slowman > Japanese would love to have the used F-22s from the USAF inventory instead of brand new ones engineered just for them. These planes are USAF-spec machines full of classified techs, right?

no, they would have to be ITARs restricted assets, so they would be gutted.  paying almost triple the price for a gutted capability is not something that the DIET would be too excited about.  On top of which, (like the JSF and Israel), the US isn't going to hand over integration data so that Japan (or Sth Korea or Israel or Australia or Botswana or Belize) can add their own electronics and weapons systems.  again, there are at a minimum 3 baseline build variants of the F-22.  So there is no point Japan getting them because she would inherit the same issues that the USAF has now (and without the support of the vendor who knows that they have to do a rearguard to keep the line open so have trotted out the mudfighter as a form of aviation engineerings "texas hold)

me? well I'd love to see the Japanese get the F-22 as I think that China is going to be a problem circa 2025. The US is going to need all the help that it can get as that country flexes its muscles and starts to morph economic belligerence and muscle into military belligerence to support its economic rise.

either way state congressmen twittering about local economics and local state economies are not going to have any clout against Obey, ITARs (and 2 congressmen out of 350+ ??)) will not shift an amendment.  Then they have to change the  mind of Hilary, Gates, Obama.

The only way that Japan will get F-22's is if China has a brain fart, does a hitler and strikes too early.  Considering that chinese politics revolves around gestation and delivery periods over decades (planned thought) - then thats so far remote to be almost non existent.   If china has a brain fart and goes early, then the US would be doling out more than F-22's to its allies.

again, my considered unemotional view.  If the US was not in its economic and political state, I'd love to see F-22's sitting in Okinawa.  The chinese only respect force as it represents strength of character and political intent.  This "softly softly play nice and we'll all sing songs around the banyan tree" approach  is just going to bite us on the arse come 2020-2030. 

 

 

point blank he has said that the USN needs to go greenwater

That doesn't mean we are conceding our Blue Water capability. It only means that the USN will refocus some of its procurement efforts and doctrine at the increasingly important Greenwater requirements as the USN so completely dominates the Bluewater 

that for all intents and purposes there are no legit challengers in that battlespace.

-DA 

I wonder if you study history? If you did you would not make this comment "there are no legit challengers in that battlespace"

DefenceNews regarding LCS in the last fortnight,

Plus the waters around Japan are target rich with the targets close by. 1000 kilometers is not necessary when 300 kilometers will do. (The missile is air launch capable.)

 

Never ASSUME or try to impose a definition upon the guys who BUILD and USE them, kid. Those are cruise missiles You definitely don't know what you discuss.  

Herald

 

@ gf0012-aust > they're up against State (Clinton) and DoD (Gates) either of whom have the same philisophical view as POTUS on a thin military.

slowman > Of course Obama's against further F-22 acquisition. But we don't know what Obama's stance is on F-22 export that is so critical in perserving F-22 jobs.

LOL, Obama doesn't give a hoot about a production line that has bugger all impact on the national game plan.  There are more car yards closing down due to GM failing than what the F-22 could even remotely reflect.  The jobs to preserve the F-22 can be and are being saved by JSF as well as a few other programs (including maritime).  The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

gf0012-aust > no, they would have to be ITARs restricted assets, so they would be gutted.

But you said it couldn't be done, so that means Japanese gets USAF-spec F-22 as is if Japanese were to buy the used F-22 like you are suggesting.

no, I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

gf0012-aust > The only way that Japan will get F-22's is if China has a brain fart, does a hitler and strikes too early.

slowman > Or the US Congress decide that they should perserve F-22 jobs by selling it to Japan.

@ gf0012-aust > The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

slowman > Not all F-22 subcontractors would migrate to F-35 program. Boeing IDS would be hit hard with F-22 program shut down.

er, did you even make the effort to read what I said?  you do realise that people transfer within companies to other companies - even other platform types.  eg a number of the F-22 and B2 disciplines are also in Boeing 767's, submarines and hypersonics.  a number are in ISR programs involving UAS.  There are any number of defence contractors in here who've worked for Boeing, gone to Lockmart and ended up at Raytheon (or whatever variant you want to make up).   Military contractors I deal with have rarely worked just for the one company.  It's a small community, the skillsets are valuable, and people shift and.or get poached all he time.

If you think that Boeing has not been able to plan for the future life of one of their cells when this has been a front and centre debate for more than 5 years - then Boeing deserve to go the way of GM.   

@ gf0012-aust > I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

slowman > Disabling a feature is easier, a lot easier than putting in a new one.

really, tell me subsystem on the F-22 you have knowledge of - I'm all ears.  You obviously know stuff all about how the F-22 and JSF are built.  You just can't "switch off" intimate systems.  It's not like your samsung integrated amplifier.

@ gf0012-aust > have you bothered to add up how many jobs on the F-22 line are exclusive to the F-22 and not able to be migrated and skill transferred into various other programs?

slowman > What various other programs? Isn't F-35 supposed to be the only active fighter program in the US for the next 30 years?

again, make the effort to read what I said and not what you want me to say to fit your response.  The US will have at least 3 mainstream manned combat aircraft platforms sans type in service for the next 30 years.  in 30 years time the through life support for both the JSF and the SHornet will make the F-22 increasingly a support orphan.  There will be at least 3 block variants in service and the earlier Blocks will progressively get closer to ANG status due to those support issues.

and for goodness sake, the sensor system and signature mechanics management for a manned fighter today is already prevalent in UAS, is already viewed as being able to be miniaturised for other delivery systems. 

again, make the effort to read what I said and not what you want me to say to fit your response.  The US will have at least 3 mainstream manned combat aircraft platforms sans type in service for the next 30 years.  in 30 years time the through life support for both the JSF and the SHornet will make the F-22 increasingly a support orphan.  There will be at least 3 block variants in service and the earlier Blocks will progressively get closer to ANG status due to those support issues.

and for goodness sake, the sensor system and signature mechanics management for a manned fighter today is already prevalent in UAS, is already viewed as being able to be miniaturised for other delivery systems. 

Skipping all the conversation about weapons specs and getting back to the original topic; both the Typhoon and F-35 have very little chance of winning Japan's F-X bid. Japan will almost certainly go for license production, which means that, out of the all available candidates, the proposed F-15FX that's been talked about for a while, which will have all of the capabilities of F-15E/K/SG and perhaps more, while being the most cost efficient due to ASDF's ample experience with Charlies in terms of production, logistics, deployment, integration and maintenance, will have a significant edge over the competition.

 

And, speaking of Japan's desire for the F-22; the Congress does not want to export the Raptor, yet. Japan has stated that it is willing to make compromises and will settle for reduced-capability variant of the F-22 if necessary, but the bean counters aren't dumb--if a reduced-capability variant is to be produced, it will mean a massive spending for R&D to redesign an aircraft of an epic scale in terms of capability to make it do less, driving up the overall cost of the new variant to the point where it will be nearly as expensive as the original but with significantly reduced capability. Throw in the fact that the Japanese aren't going to purchase many of it, as well as the usual pork-barreling associated with the fact that nearly all of them minus the initial batch being domestically produced in Japan, (they make some of the most expensive hardwares to date, but they don't carry much bang for their buck) not to mention very slim prospect of exporting the new variant to other nations due to their high costs on LM and Boeing's part, will mean that the combined R&D and production cost will be enormous.

 

Simply put; reduced-capability F-22 is NOT going to happen. Heck, it will be more efficient in terms of nearly every aspect for Japan to shoot for F-35 instead.

@ Herald12345



> 1000 kilometers is not necessary when 300 kilometers will do. (The missile is air launch capable.)

Japan's F-15 and F-4 cannot launch Harpoons. Only F-2 could. Just add up F-2 combat radius + 300 km range and and you can see it doesn't go as far enough to hit Beijing and Seoul, whereas 1,000 km+ cruise missiles launched from Beijing and Seoul could hit Tokyo. Japanese are at a great disadvantage here, and this is indeed what Chinese and Koreans are threatening; they would hit Tokyo if Japanese attempted a military action against islands claimed by them.

That is Japan's problem and Japan's  foulup and NOT my problem. Its not that hard to do. Just ask somebody competent. Raytheon will be glad to help.

@ gf0012-aust

>  The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

Not all F-22 subcontractors would migrate to F-35 program. Boeing IDS would be hit hard with F-22 program shut down.

> I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

Disabling a feature is easier, a lot easier than putting in a new one.

How many times do I have to write shared computer network?

> have you bothered to add up how many jobs on the F-22 line are exclusive to the F-22 and not able to be migrated and skill transferred into various other programs?

What various other programs? Isn't F-35 supposed to be the only active fighter program in the US for the next 30 years?

Nope. But first we have to clean house so those programs get funding.