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Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009 BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter By JUN HONGO Staff writer Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo. The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities. But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive. Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan. The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach." The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment. As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue. "Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions. By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said. In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development. BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said. Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued." Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked. Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power. Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle. P-3C patrols start Kyodo News A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said. The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March. The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry. After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base. The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
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Beazz       6/23/2009 10:37:29 PM

Nice try and nice excuse Beazz but your explanation does not stand , the video is very clear . The pilot ejected because he knew that his jet was unable to recover and that 's it .

A Rafale would have simply completed the figure and get some applause .


 

h*tp://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-59562.aspx


 

Cheers .



LOL.. BW, you either just wish to argue for the sake of it or are a complete idiot when it comes to aviation. As in the article that Arty posted a link to and just what I elluded to:
He made his calculation based on an incorrect mean-sea-level altitude of the airfield.
 
Do you even know what *mean-sea-level* is BW? In case you don't. Which is obvious, that is the ALTIMETER setting I referred to earlier. He set his altimeter setting 100 points off you moron.  I had not even saw the article on the crash and could come to that conclusion simply by watching the pilots actions and reaction. Anyone that is remotely familiar with aviation would have picked up on that. Reading airplane articles on the net does not make one familiar with aviation does it BW? lol I bet without doing a Google search you have NO clue what IFR and VFR is.
 
A Rafail under that exact situation would have had the exact same outcome!! It's called pilot error and the plane had nada to do with it.
 
Beazz

 
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Beazz       6/23/2009 10:50:02 PM

It doesn ' t matter Herald !  The F-16 is simply unable to do anything and is simply sinking .

I am still telling you that a Rafale would have completed the loop . 

 

Cheers .



BW, of course the F16 is sinking. What part of this are you unable to get a grip on? Don't you know that the airshow stunts are all precise based on certain altitudes, speeds and locations of the maneuver? The F16 and ANY other a/c coming out of that loop and being at 1000ft would be sinking until they applied power as that was also the F16's plan. What you seem to be UNABLE to grasp is instead of being at 1000ft he was 1/2 second from ground impact when he realized his mistake and there was no recovery possible for the F16 or any other plane that would have found itself in that exact position.
It's become quiet obvious you have no clue what is involved in airshow stunts and even more so have no clue what is actually involved with flying an airplane and how pilots use instrumentation!! You claim to have this vast knowledge of all things technical and whiz bang on fighters, but yet you don't even have a basic understanding of what instrument flight is!! Geez
 
Beazz
 
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warpig       6/23/2009 11:30:12 PM
I think three or four people have tried to explain it to you, but now I will, too.  Hopefully, you'll actually get it after all this.
 
It's called Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT).  He hit the ground because he never tried to avoid the ground, or what little bit he tried he initiated far too late to make enough difference.  He was following a flight path that would have brought him out of the maneuver at a nice safe comfortable altitude and would not have crashed at all... if he had entered the airfield's altitude into his avionics properly.  Instead, as he was flying the maneuver as per his training based on what his instruments told him, he unknowingly was actually flying a path right into the ground.  All aircraft following the same path he was following would also have flown right into the ground just like he did, or to put it another way, that same pilot performing that same maneuver the same way he did it in his F-16 would still have hit the ground in the same way he did no matter what aircraft he was flying.  The only reason he survived is because he did notice something was wrong long enough before the crash to initiate ejection and still make it out alive.  If he had been flying a Rafale toward the ground in the same way, and noticed at the same time he did in his F-16, then the same result would have occurred.
 
 
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gf0012-aust       6/23/2009 11:44:18 PM

jf , with all your respect , you are fighting for a lost cause .

I believe that the bloke (Inouye) has excellent insides .

Cheers . 

stop trolling.  there are legal issues.  what they can and cannot do.  who can talk to who is actually governed by State - not by a congressman trying to curry votes in his electoriate having been part of ITARs discussions I'd hazard a guess that I've got more of a clue than a few on here.  
facts trump belief every time.  if you think that Inouye has the goods to trump the Obey supporters then you're a golden mile off course

 

 
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gf0012-aust    oops   6/23/2009 11:51:20 PM



jf , with all your respect , you are fighting for a lost cause .

I believe that the bloke (Inouye) has excellent insides .

Cheers

stop trolling. what lost cause?  this is about people throwing in material that is not supported by how things actually work.  Newsarticles do not provide proof of life of evidence on an issue - especially on the F-22.  Would/coulda/should are wishful "gonna" statements that reflect more on enthusiasm and an idealogical commitment to what he wants rather than dealing with the realities of how this works.  What the ferk would Inouye know about costs when USAF cannot provide him with anything unless they get cleared by State in the first place.  The military answers to civilian authority on these issues.  Even Lockmart or Boeing cannot give a price unless cleared by State first.  Whats the basis of the quote?  Again, Japanese through life support costs are established differently to the US.  What baseline figure would they use etc etc.....  
There are legal issues.  what they can and cannot do.  who can talk to who is actually governed by State - not by a congressman trying to curry votes in his electoriate.
Having been part of ITARs discussions I'd hazard a guess that I've got more of a clue than a few on here.  
facts trump belief every time.  if you think that Inouye has the goods to trump the Obey supporters then you're a golden mile off course

 
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gf0012-aust       6/24/2009 8:27:52 AM
again, all this fluffery about the F-22 and japan is not supported by evidence and behaviour coming from within japan

the japanese have said point blank that their future is now tied up with joint development - they're not interested in sole trading their own platform.  that means no samurai jets, no ninja jets, no mt fuji specials, and no mech warriors with F-22 internals to take on a chinese godzilla.  they also don't want to buy a hotrodded gen 4.5 as they also want to go to 5th gen in a normal procurement cycle (0-15 years from selection)

to quote the DepDir of the Okazaki:
"Japans only option is to proceed with joint research and development of state of the art weapons and defence systems with other countries"

this claim that they're going to invest in an indigenous solution is challenged and regularly contradicted by JSDF personnel who attend as observers to the JSF prog etc...  They will not get any tech sharing on the F-22 even if it was available - because the damn jet can't be dumbed down in a cost effective manner - and the Diet (Japanese Parlt) is sure as hell not going to allow them to pay the alleged (and those figures quoted  by Inouye are absolute nonsense) 2 to 2.5 times the  ticket price of an early build JSF.  Unless the manufacturer decides to completely redesign some critical components we know that they can't do an export.  That would effectively mean a new plane - not just a block release.  It would be a bigger sleight of hand than the Hornet/Super Hornet stunt pulled to get that plane past Congress.

Now unless POTUS or SECDEF intends sacking USAF Chief of Staff Schwartz, then he also has a pretty clear view of where the JSF will sit.  He's made it clear.  No more F-22's, and no more Gen 4.5's to keep the ANG happy as a stalling manouvre.

 
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SlowMan       6/24/2009 10:49:48 AM
@ gf0012-aust

> again, all this fluffery about the F-22 and japan is not supported by evidence and behaviour coming from within japan

Behavior coming from within Japan is that Japan is only interested in F-22, and anything else is unacceptable, unless the US pushes Japanese hand into buying Typhoon. This comes all the way up from the defense minister and drumrolled by powerful conservative politicians.

>  they also don't want to buy a hotrodded gen 4.5 as they also want to go to 5th gen in a normal procurement cycle (0-15 years from selection)

Shin Shin is 5th gen.

> They will not get any tech sharing on the F-22 even if it was available

That's fine to them, as long as Japan has a sizable fleet to overpower Chinese and Korean airforces.

> - because the damn jet can't be dumbed down in a cost effective manner - and the Diet (Japanese Parlt) is sure as hell not going to allow them to pay the alleged 2 to 2.5 times the  ticket price of an early build JSF.

Twice the plane, twice the price is acceptable. Recall that Japanese are price-insensitive in their purchasing decisions; they pay top yen(dollar) for the goods of highest quality.

F-22 is to F-35 what a Lambo is to a Civic. Paying twice the price of a Civic to get a Lambo is a bargain in the eyes of Japanese war planners.

BTW, here is the Congressional Report on the subject of F-22 export to Japan dated three months ago. < link >The report mentions that Korea will automatically buy F-22 if Japan buys, so the export market would be quite sizable, 120 units minimum(80 for Japan in FX-I and FX-II split contracts, and 40 for Korea) between just these two. That should keep F-22 line open for a quite some time and make all the Senators from 44 states hosting F-22 contractors/suppliers happy.
 
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Lynstyne       6/24/2009 2:30:32 PM
IFR
 
I Follow Roads surely
 
All the whatever they were but now become rafale threads have merged in my mind so wether the following were here or there i dont know
 
France Deploying meteor first  - i suspect they will firstly because they need to secondly because now france has a stake in the missile they will do there usual and sod everything up until its done there way (having spent years working in france for airbus I have witnessed this many times)
 
Typhoon came first in the A2A part of the Korea competition now wether this is the case or not is not relevant - but the fact you posted it  BW are you now admitting the Tiffy is not the lame duck you so strongly imply nor is it a poor 2nd to the rafale in A2A.
 
Typhoon coming last in Air to mud - not a shocker really .
 
Corruption and Bribes - im sure the US did it, as did France and probably the UK - Ive found the whole BAE - Saudi scandle an excercise in Hypocricy - bribes are the way business is done - for the competition loosers to then cry foul is sour grapes at best.
 
Supersonic agility-- i may be completely wrong but i was under the impression that with a basic (4+2) warload the typhoon had demonstrated supersonic agility (or at least far in excess of any preceding aircraft). i rather thought it was a claim to fame  however im happy to be corrected.
 
Q for herald   regarding my question about IR + radar  Mica   weeks ago.
 
My understanding of youre answer is
 
IR and radar missiles have different flight profiles  the seeker could be swapped out as simply as i suggested (and i see no reason that wouldnt work) and the flight profile could be modified to suit with software.
 
The problem is that aerodynamically ithis doesnt work the different profiles require a different missile body so the mica is either optimised for 1 or comprimised for both.
 
the f16 crash - the pilot screwed the pooch he was to low to slow to recover any aircraft in that position is in trouble
I trust having made such a bloody stupid error  someone tore him a new arse
 
 
 
 
 
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SlowMan       6/24/2009 3:34:25 PM
@ Lynstyne

> Typhoon came first in the A2A part of the Korea competition now wether this is the case or not is not relevant

True, Typhoon ranked 1st in A2A, but the Korean Airforce was looking for a long-range strike fighter at that time, as well as how much tech transfer would be made for utilization in KFX project. This is why Rafale competed with F-15E in F-X I competition until the end, because Dassault promised the most comprehensive scope of tech transfer, even if Rafale was considered inferior to Typhoon in A2A and F-15E in strike missions.

Times have changed this time around and Korean Airforce is looking for 60 air-superiority fighters in F-X III competition this time, with Typhoon being the leading candidate at the moment(The leading candidate automatically changes to F-22 the moment Japan nears F-22 order placement). Boeing is pushing F-15SE to Korean government on the ground that it lived up to past tech transfer promises and that it would fully cooperate in making KFX live up to its planned spec, a 5th-gen fighter positioned in between F-22 and F-35, that is. EADS is pushing Typhoon Trenche 3 on the ground that this is the best air-superiority fighter on the market(until F-22 becomes available for export, that is). Lockheed Martin fighter division(Not other divisions of Lockheed Martin) won many enemies within Korean government officials with its restrictive terms during the T-50 program and F-35 is not considered a serious contender accordingly to the dismay of certain F-35 fans here.

Thus there are more to foreign fighter purchase decisions than sheer performance and cost. For some governments, it's the amount of kickbacks. For others, how much tech transfer is to be made.
 
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Lynstyne       6/24/2009 4:05:40 PM
coming last in A2G isnt unexpected given the competition
 
The F15 has evolved from being arguably the premier fighter of its era into an excellent all rounder.
 
the rafale was designed as a fighter bomber from the start
As a multirole fighter the Typhoon is currently a non starter given time it will (hopefully) become a reaonable strike bird but at this time no
 
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