The above post is what you get when you try to have a real discussion with a troll.

 

 

 

@ gf0012-aust

> What undowngraded LO capabilities?

ShinShin would not have any "intentional" stealth downgrades like the export version of F-35.

> where is it on any japanese plane?

The engine for ShinShin has 3D thrust vectoring.

The design seen is called a 2d  paddle divert. Heavy  and complex. Interesting but hard to mask. Guess why?

F-35 is not available for license production. Japanese intended to fill the high-end with imported F-22 and low-end with ShinShin to sustain their domestic aerospace industry. Filling high-end with ShinShin and low-end with imported F-35 is not what Japanese planned.

> what japanese missiles are under development for use on an aviation platform?

Mitsubishi AAM-3 & 4 A2A missiles, ASM-1 and ASM-2 anti-ship missiles, and a whole bunch of follow-up missiles. Integrating these into F-35 is problematic, as Israel can testify.

AAM-3 is Sidewinder in a Mitsubishi8 skin. It uses ITALIAN actuators and a US IRCOM GCU seeker. The only domestic part is the SLR.

AAM-4 is ASPIDE 2000 in a Mitsubishi skin equipped with a ATG AMRAAM type seeker front end and SARH command update. Mitsubuushi engineers owe a lot to Raytheorn and Selenia (now Alenia). 

> there are 8 countries that will be using JSF for air superiority from day 1.

Those are NATO countries facing low-security threat. Japan is not in a low-security threat environment; it faces China, Russia, South Korea, and North Korea, all eager to "settle the score" with Japan.

Australia is one of the countries, The UNITED STATES is the third other that GF didn't mention because our Eagle fleet will be worn out and we have to use sopmething to backstop the Raptors.. .

> there are 2 that will use it as air superiority options "day 2"

And they would be using Typhoon as their primary air-superiority fighter.

Why?

> Unfort for some of those who carry on about JSF not being able to do air superiority, every one of the partners have run the Brawler sims, we actually do have real empirical information on the flanker family and its derivatives

Well, Japanese have to factor in PAK-FA, J-14, F-15K, KFX, and SM-2 launched from Aegis ships in their battle simulation.

PAK-FA doesn't exist.

> The israelis have got more aviation and weapons development experience than japan and sth korea even remotely have, and yet they know that building their own is an exercise in budgetary implosion.

Israel is a small country with a modest economy. Japan and Korea are industrial powerhouses committed to fostering their own aerospace industry.

Israel is not that modest. They produce more tanks and rockets than Japane does!

> If you can't integrate into the JSF without recertifying core components and or system behaviours, then you sure as heck can't do it with the F-22.

Japanese would bend over to have F-22, like maintaining them in Lockheed Martin run facilities and using only US missiles, but Japanese would not extend the same to F-35, something that Japanese feel they could do better themselves.

The F-35 has exactlt the same coding problems as the F-22 in some cases worse. (DASS)

> If the japanese want to get a new type fielded in time, then they either get Typhoon or they get JSF.

It's F-22 or Typhoon, not F-35. F-35 is out of question other than F-35Bs for their flattops.

Are you kidding? Even the JASDF has to BOMB.

> anything but JSF gives them a capability thats close to what they caurrently have with their F-15's, so why would they bother.

Typhoon is a superior Air-Superiorty fighter to F-35, the primary air-defense fighter of UK and Turkey that are also buying F-35s.

Typhoon = Air-Superiority mission

F-35 = Strike mission.


> You blithely pass comment on a new platform entering congested market place space, an already substantially committed/recommitted  market place (JSF, F-15 and Typhoon)  and think that the Japanese are not going to exercise commercial reality?

There is actually a market for countries that need an air-superiority fighter better than F-35.

The US. Boeing is working on it. Their Seagle first effort failed. BTDB.

> what exports?

Why do you think Japan is lifting the weapons export ban?

So they can sell to Taiwan. Its called a cutout

> esp when the issue of capability latency is somewhat in question.

This is fine with ASDF as long as the capability upgrade is done locally and frequently updated.

What upgrade?

> please let me know what IOC dates the japanese can even remotely hope to achieve against a JSF even if its slipped in the US by 18months?

First flight is scheduled in summer 2016. A decision on entering mass production would be made after a couple of years of evaluation.

ROTFLMAO.

> you fail to understand that the reason why Sth Korea and Japan are in this pickle is because they tried Texas "Hold 'em" and the bluff failed.

You don't understand that those countries never seriously considered F-35 from the beginning, because they were always going to build their low-end fighters themselves, and import the high-end from the US, at least that was their weapons procurement policy since the 80s. Their indigenous fighters and F-35 could not co-exist, think about it.

I did. The F-1 and F-2 disasters showed me a PRC bandit level of incompetency in military aviation system tech integration. I wonder how a 4x magnitude systems integration problem that two novice military aviation states plan to tackle is going to work out? You need a quarter century of SUCCESSFUL combat aircraft engineering to understand what that means.

> The Japanese are in a pickle of their own making.  Now they may well get a footprint (like the Israelis) if the Dutch defer for 18months, or if any other partners defer or reduce, in that case they can still only get a slot if the existing partners allow them early entry.

Why don't you understand that Japanese DO NOT WANT F-35???

They want it and would be glad to get it. Their Air Force is not composed of fan boys.

> I find it extraordinary that people throw out crap on how fast they think a country can cradle to grave a new aircraft capability when the recent historical evidence shows just how long it does actually take

Asians developed at twice to triple the speed of their western counterparts in other industries. They believe they can achieve in 10 years what it took Americans 30 years to achieve based on their history of past successes.

Oh? Show me evidence of that ONCE. Even in cartech,  FORD is faster off the dime than Toyota.

> the chinese and russians have actually shot at the japanese

And so have Japanese and Koreans in the 50s.

And? Icelanders and British have shot at each. (fisheries war).  Means that Uncle and the EU has to knock heads together from time to time to break up the three stooges episode..

> If you think that western intelligence is unaware of Sth Korean, Japanese territorial issues

Of course the US is well-aware of the history of Japan-Korea territorial disputes going back to the end of WW2, and the US understands why there can never be an Asian version of NATO in the region, and why Japan considers Korea to be their main security threat and vise versa.


> The chinese do their very best to foster it because its in their own interests to have their 2 main asian threat competitors pre-occupied with each other instead of watching what their big neighbour to the north and west is doing.

I er..

 

I also made a LO fighter, it is going to be developed in 5 years, at a cost of.. $500, and will be able to defeat the F22, I've sent a prototype to france, where they assure me that it will indeed beat everything out there (excepting the rafale of course, which can send cyborgs backwards through time to kill the father of the pilot who launched the missile).

 

So far the clay prototype has done everything expected of it, and more.

 

So far, providing I can get you an image that looks vaguely stealthy I seem to have similar levels of credibility for the shinshin, except that of course, I am only joking.

 

ReactivE

 

 

> AAM-4 is ASPIDE 2000 in a Mitsubishi skin equipped with a ATG AMRAAM type seeker front end and SARH command update.

 

@ herald12345



> AAM-3 is Sidewinder in a Mitsubishi8 skin.



AAM-3 is a sidewinder replacement, not a sidewinder

Its a Sidewinder. Get over yourself, kid.  I know China Lake and Raytheon when I see it. The rollerons are a dead giveaway.


AAM-4 is a sparrow replacement, not a sparrow.

So is the Italian style 2d actuator control setup and the front end canards on the ASPIDE clone. Who the hell do you think you are dealing with?

> Australia is one of the countries,

The security threat level faced by Australia is pretty low so F-35 is good enough for them. After all, Australia's only security threat is China, which is far away and has put Australia at the bottom of its security priority list.

Australia has declared that it will use Sparky air to air. She many times fights where we fight. Also Konfrontassi. East Timor. These are bits of HISTORY, kid. The Australians have a very violent neighborhood that has seen a LOT MORE FIGHTING than your nrighborhood has recently.  

> The UNITED STATES is the third

The US has 183 Raptors.

Pay attention. WE don't have enough Raptors to cover everywhere we need to cover. We need more ourselves potentially because of idiots like "fill in the blank" (you know who you are).

> Why?

Ask RAF why. Same goes for Turkey, which isn't satisfied with F-35 and is planning to import Typhoon as their primary air superiority fighter.

-Last time I checked the RAF wanted their F-35s desperately as does Turkey. You haven't stooped to LYING have you?

> Israel is not that modest.

Israel doesn't have a major manufacturing industrial base like Japan and Korea do. On the other hand, Japan and Korea are major manufacturing powerhouses that can support an aerospace industry. It is only natural that Japan and Korea get into aerospace industry, and support them by doing indigenous military plane projects.

Israel gas something your tecjhnplpgists and engoneers lack, WILL and experience.  A factory is only a building. These people build atomic bombs, ROCKETS, and tanks. They play for keeps. They aren't pretend modelmakers and copyists , boy. They are for REAL.

Because GSDF is treated like sh*t in Japan while Israeli army gets the major share of funding and manpower?

No, because they are surrounded and they know what it means to FAIL. Its been a long time since the Japanese were subjected to WAR. I also point out for a boy who has an opinion so variant with evidence, I wonder if you have actually seen the JGSDF forces? I'm getting feedback from professionals whgo hgave whgo suggest that you don't know what you talk about. I also see for myself that you don't know what you discuss. 

> Are you kidding? Even the JASDF has to BOMB.

Strategic bombing is against Japanese constitution. And Japan has enough CAS capability. Thus no need for F-35's strike capability.

Tactical bombimg isn't, and what are all those ground launched cruise missiles for?

> F-35 is a swing role fighter. It HAS to be NOW.

F-35 isn't good enough to meet Japanese requirement for an air-superiority fighter.

Your opinion is meaningless and worthless to ME. Why is it not good enough? FACTS. 

> So they can sell to Taiwan. Its called a cutout

No one dares to sell weapons to Taiwan. Only the likes of US and Russia could.

France. Israel. South Africa. Spain.   See? This is why you are incompetent.

> What upgrade?

Avionics upgrade to support new capability and weapon.

Again what upgrade. I have a vert specific answer I want, not meaningless noise from a boy..

> They want it and would be glad to get it. Their Air Force is not composed of fan boys.

I see a real-time tracking of F-22 export progress in Japanese press.

I see it too. The noise is just that, noise.

> Icelanders and British have shot at each. (fisheries war).  Means that Uncle and the EU has to knock heads together from time to time to break up the three stooges episode..

GF, you're right. He's a fanboy.

 I support that conclusion.

@ Herald12345



> Its a Sidewinder.

It isn't.

Explain the rollerons and the URCOM seeker, boy.

> Australia has declared that it will use Sparky air to air.

Because its security threat level is low.

Lie. East Timor

> She many times fights where we fight.

But not the Australian airforce.

Lie. As in NOW.

So East Timor is somehow more threatening than China, Russia, North Korea and South Korea?

To them? Probably as Indonesia and they came to blows over it twice.

> Israel gas something your tecjhnplpgists and engoneers lack, WILL and experience.

And Israel imports cars from China because there is no Israeli auto industry. Of course Israel has a number of world-class R&D centers staffed by Jewish engineers, but that's it. No real manufacturing in Israel to support an aerospace industry.

> I wonder if you have actually seen the JGSDF forces?

No, but I have heard enough Japanese jokes about GSDF to know they are considered worthless even to the Japanese.

Now I can add this to the data about you. Jokes huh? How can I tell if I am dealing with a fool? When he claims jokes are facts. That is a joke about you, boy. Are you a fool?

> Tactical bombimg isn't, and what are all those ground launched cruise missiles for?

Japan doesn't have cruise missile.

Those are SSM-2a or HARPOONS.

So is yours.

Mine is backed by fact anbd proven expertise. What is yours again? Oh yes, LIES (See above.) .

> you're right. He's a fanboy.
 

Get an education here by being silent and READING. I'll teach you something that you can go back to your fanboy friends and actually show them you know something.real after you learn here.

 

Herald

 

Israel wants to buy F-22 if the export ban is lifted< link >

 

So that would mean three countries(Japan, Korea, and Israel) are now definite F-22 buyers if the export ban is lifted, for a minimum order of at least 140 units between three.

 

This makes a compelling economic argument for the continued F-22 production via export.

< link >

 

Newly introduced "North Korea Punishment" bill introduced to the US Senate includes an F-22 export provision.

 

In other word, punish North Korea by selling F-22 to Japan.

 

The force to export F-22 to Japan is strong within the US Senate, as these senators are trying to export F-22 to Japan at every possible opportunity, be it the 2010 Defense Budget bill or the "Punish North Korea" bill.

It's bad enough that you're a troll, but it's worse that you're too stubborn to even comprehend why an export F-22 is about as remotely possible as Vladimir Putin being Michael Jacksons long lost sister...

if the US decides to sell all of their own F-22's then that would fix their spiral development and sustainment problem in ine hit.  The Japanese pay triple the price for a baseline F-22 and the US goes out and does a new architecture and systems development with all that lovely money.

Make effort to understand the technical embuggerances and you'll start to see why political colour and movement is taking priority over considered thought.

But, I must say I'd love to see the Japanese get the F-22, it would throw the rest of the fanboys in asia into a tiz and let them focus on something else for a while. It's combat aviations version of Oliver Twist.... :)

@ herold12345



> Explain the rollerons and the URCOM seeker



Different missiles can share design features and parts.

No they don't. There is only one source for rollerons and that kind of seeker. 

> Lie. East Timor

Is East Timor a security threat equal to North Korea, China, Russia, and South Korea?

The battlespace is what i discuss, not your concepts of "military power". Indonesia is a security threat in that context..  

> Israel imports cars from the EU.


Not a one, Slowman, not a one. NOBODY with a right mind buys cars from China.  

> SSM-1

SSM-1 is a ground-launched anti-ship missile. It is not a cruise missile.

By definition HARPOON (SSM-1) is a cruise missile. Don't say it isn't and don't try to claim that you know. You don't. 

> So is yours.
Yours more.

Tell that to the Senators behind it, including Senator Jon Kyl, GOP's No. 2 senator. Clearly, GOP leadership is behind this "Let's export F-22 to Japan and save precious F-22 jobs in this terrible economic condition" movement within the Senate. I am just posting here what I have been reading elsewhere.

 

Hate to break it to you, but the Republican's aren't running either the Senate, House or White House and the Dems now have 60 votes in the Senate. Which (assuming they were actually organized and disciplined) would mean they could cut out a lot of Republican obstructionism.

 

It isn't. Harpoon is a radar-guided missile with short-range, whereas real cruise missiles operated by China are Korea are GPS guided with terrain contour matching with enough range to strike all of Japan from their respective homelands.



You can blame it on Japan's "Peace" Constitution written by the US occupational force authority back in the 40s for this.