Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009 BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter By JUN HONGO Staff writer Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo. The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities. But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the 25 billion plane is too expensive. Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about 10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan. The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach." The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment. As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue. "Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions. By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said. In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development. BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said. Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued." Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked. Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power. Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle. P-3C patrols start Kyodo News A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said. The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March. The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry. After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base. The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18   NEXT
ArtyEngineer       6/12/2009 11:11:21 PM

Friday, June 12, 2009


BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter


By JUN HONGO
Staff writer
Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo.

The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities.





But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive.

Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan.

The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach."

The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment.

As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue.

"Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions.

By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said.

In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development.

BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said.

Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued."

Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked.

Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power.

Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle.

P-3C patrols start
Kyodo News
A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said.

The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March.

The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry.

After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base.

The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
Regarding Highlighted, WTF does a statement regarding reduced IR signature have to do with Low Observable Radar Characteristics!!!!!!

 
Quote    Reply

Reactive       6/13/2009 6:11:59 PM
It could easily be a misquote, but yes, no relationship.  Often journalists who are not specifically knowledgable about anything take "notes" which then get reconstructed.
 
He's right about stealth not being a silver bullet, you can see a silver bullet.
 
: )
 
 
Quote    Reply

prometheus       6/15/2009 6:19:49 AM

the Typhoon is probably superior to any of the Russian designs being fielded by any of Japan's near neighbours - after all, it's what it was designed for! and while the margin of superiority over the sukhois is obviously less than what might be afforded by the F-22, it should be enough to give the Japanese confidence in their ability to gain and maintain air superiority.

 
Quote    Reply

Reactive       6/15/2009 7:38:01 AM
"probably" being the operative word.
 
 I know what you're saying, and I mostly agree - but from Japan's point of view, they will be facing, in a worst case scenario, overwhelming numbers of chinese craft. Whilst the EF does have a relative advantage over these airframes at the present time, I do wonder whether that will still be the case in 20+ years time, and I can certainly see why Japan would want a plane that is an entirely different kettle of fish, one that has a very real possibility of "not being shot down" even when significantly outnumbered.
 
The US is absolutely correct not to allow export of the F22, the technology leaks that have previously happened with US systems in Japan have given China (with 10+ million hard science/engineering graduates a year) a good insight into a lot of technology, it is going to be only a matter of time before the Chinese develop the sorts of systems that we commonly presume them to be incapable of developing. They have a vast vast pool of cheap, highly intelligent, educated manpower to throw in to anything they can, and the best way to employ those people is to set them to work understanding and replicating stolen technology. 
 
So the Typhoon it is, with no one to blame but themselves for the fact that the US isn't going to change the law in this instance.
 
I love watching it fly in real life - it's quite eerie, it has an operational ceiling of 65 000 feet and has sustained supercruise, but (other than in frontal aspect) it has a poor survivability versus newer russian SAM's and the like by a whole order of magnitude relative the F22.

 

 
Quote    Reply

prometheus       6/15/2009 8:09:32 AM
reactive, If the Tiffy has a relative advantage in airframe over current and proposed Chinese/Russian designs as it stands, then twenty years will make little difference - that's including the near mythical PAK-FA. In terms of avionics there is no way a JASDF Typhoon will fall behind the chinese.
 
Besides, in any conceivable scenario, the Typhoon will be used by the Japanese as a defensive interceptor, where it's purported vulnerability to new S-400 SAM systems will not be so apparent, if all the japanese need to do is defend the homeland, then Typhoon (particularly with meteor) will be more than adequate.
 
if they need to fly into the face of Chinese air defences then they may have a problem, but apart form the  legal ramifications to the Japanese constitution, there is no reason to believe that a) US F-22s will not have intervened by then anyway b) That there will not be the development of a new generation of HARM/ALARM type stand off missiles that will swing the advantage away from SAM systems and back to an attacker.
 
Typhhon is more than up to the task of defending the Japanese home islands, and while I accept the large advantages incurred by the F-22s low RCS, I do not accpet the idea that Typhhon is 'a whole' generation behind.
 
Quote    Reply

prometheus       6/15/2009 8:13:48 AM
Forgot to add:
 
Yes probably is the operative word - but only in so much as we have no real world data to go on and thereofre can only rely on best guesses based on technical data, and other odd various snippets.
 
By the same tokenw e can onyl say that the F-22 is 'probably' superior because as it stands we know of no instances where the F-22 was put up against vast hordes of chinese fighters. Even though it is an article of faith that it would survive.
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       6/15/2009 9:50:52 AM
A bad news for Japanese Typhoon bid. The USAF says it is now ready to create a Japanese export version of F-22. < http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/06/airforce_tactical_061409 >. Japanese F-22 bid now has USAF and Senate appropriation committee's support.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       6/15/2009 9:51:45 AM
 
Quote    Reply

StobieWan       6/15/2009 9:58:18 AM
Well, on the hordes vs the lone fighter, you get six rounds off and then you'd best pray the bad guys haven't seen you. The Tiffy may be carrying slightly more stores on a typical mission but there's not much in it and in a lot of defensive engagements, the interceptor has to get "eyes on" a target anyway.

Really really depends on what offsets the Japanese get offered - as with the Typhoon, they may be generous compared with the F22,
 
Ian
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       6/15/2009 10:13:18 AM
@ prometheus

> Besides, in any conceivable scenario, the Typhoon will be used by the Japanese as a defensive interceptor, where it's purported vulnerability to new S-400 SAM systems will not be so apparent, if all the japanese need to do is defend the homeland, then Typhoon (particularly with meteor) will be more than adequate.

Japanese "defensive" air battles will be fought over the seas, where they would be exposed to surface SAMs launched from a couple dozen destroyers; Chinese HQ-9 and Korean SM-2/SM-6 SAMs. The expected battlegrounds are Senkaku Islands where Japanese will be defensive, and Liancourt Rocks, where Japanese would be offensive(Japanese constitutional interpretation is that this is not an invasion since they are "taking back" of what belongs to Japan).
 
> if they need to fly into the face of Chinese air defences then they may have a problem

This is a requirement. Japanese fighters must be able to evade SAMs launched from Chinese and Korean surface warships.

> but apart form the  legal ramifications to the Japanese constitution, there is no reason to believe that a) US F-22s will not have intervened by then anyway

The US vowed to stay out in Japan Vs Korea showdown. Thus Japanese need its own F-22s.
 
Quote    Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics