Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009 BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter By JUN HONGO Staff writer Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo. The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities. But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive. Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan. The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach." The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment. As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue. "Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions. By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said. In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development. BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said. Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued." Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked. Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power. Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle. P-3C patrols start Kyodo News A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said. The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March. The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry. After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base. The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
SlowMan       7/9/2009 11:18:21 PM
@ Basilisk Station

> The Harpoon has a jet engine and flies a very low level flight path. That's a cruise missile.

But Harpoon doesn't meet the tactical requirement of a cruise missile, that is to hit the targer 1,000 km away via self-guidance, unaided after launch.

> You do realize that it's an anti-ship missile not a land attack missile don't you?

That's exactly what I have been trying to tell Herald12345.

@ gf0012-aust

> they're up against State (Clinton) and DoD (Gates) either of whom have the same philisophical view as POTUS on a thin military.

Of course Obama's against further F-22 acquisition. But we don't know what Obama's stance is on F-22 export that is so critical in perserving F-22 jobs.

> no, they would have to be ITARs restricted assets, so they would be gutted.

But you said it couldn't be done, so that means Japanese gets USAF-spec F-22 as is if Japanese were to buy the used F-22 like you are suggesting.

> The only way that Japan will get F-22's is if China has a brain fart, does a hitler and strikes too early.

Or the US Congress decide that they should perserve F-22 jobs by selling it to Japan.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    C urvature of the Earth Slowman,   7/9/2009 11:33:17 PM
Plus the waters around Japan are target rich with the targets close by. 1000 kilometers is not necessary when 300 kilometers will do. (The missile is air launch capable.)
 
Never ASSUME or try to impose a definition upon the guys who BUILD and USE them, kid. Those are cruise missiles You definitely don't know what you discuss.  

Herald
 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       7/10/2009 12:19:03 AM
@ gf0012-aust > they're up against State (Clinton) and DoD (Gates) either of whom have the same philisophical view as POTUS on a thin military.

slowman > Of course Obama's against further F-22 acquisition. But we don't know what Obama's stance is on F-22 export that is so critical in perserving F-22 jobs.

LOL, Obama doesn't give a hoot about a production line that has bugger all impact on the national game plan.  There are more car yards closing down due to GM failing than what the F-22 could even remotely reflect.  The jobs to preserve the F-22 can be and are being saved by JSF as well as a few other programs (including maritime).  The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

gf0012-aust > no, they would have to be ITARs restricted assets, so they would be gutted.

But you said it couldn't be done, so that means Japanese gets USAF-spec F-22 as is if Japanese were to buy the used F-22 like you are suggesting.

no, I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

gf0012-aust > The only way that Japan will get F-22's is if China has a brain fart, does a hitler and strikes too early.

slowman > Or the US Congress decide that they should perserve F-22 jobs by selling it to Japan.
again, what jobs?, have you bothered to add up how many jobs on the F-22 line are exclusive to the F-22 and not able to be migrated and skill transferred into various other programs?  there are very very few, in fact some of the specialised jobs for the F-22 are in real terms are redundant capabilities where some of the skills have already been improved and modified for use in programs like JSF and into other companies that deal with UAS and the SSGN's.
Saving F-22 jobs is a specious argument. The decision should be about tactical and strategic needs, the economic needs can be addressed in other areas.  The "saving jobs"  mantra by a small screeching gaggle of congressmen doesn't stand up to scrutiny as there are any number of ways that he F-22 workforce could be utilised elsewhere.
for one, and again, I think the plane shoutld be maintained and the line kept open.  That can be done without trying the 
sleight of hand attempt to appeal to exports as a hail mary solution.  especially when the export build suggestion is so full of holes its not funny.

Bottom line, is that this decision needs to be based on tactical and strategic imperatives.  Arguing for a principal platform to be maintained based on economic rationalism or on community issues is just abject nonsense.  Again, my view is that the decision is chamberlainesque in proportion.  cut it later if they must, but until the capability parame
 
Quote    Reply

Reactive       7/11/2009 4:41:35 PM
^^ Agreed.
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       7/11/2009 9:34:31 PM
@ Herald12345

> 1000 kilometers is not necessary when 300 kilometers will do. (The missile is air launch capable.)

Japan's F-15 and F-4 cannot launch Harpoons. Only F-2 could. Just add up F-2 combat radius + 300 km range and and you can see it doesn't go as far enough to hit Beijing and Seoul, whereas 1,000 km+ cruise missiles launched from Beijing and Seoul could hit Tokyo. Japanese are at a great disadvantage here, and this is indeed what Chinese and Koreans are threatening; they would hit Tokyo if Japanese attempted a military action against islands claimed by them.

@ gf0012-aust

>  The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

Not all F-22 subcontractors would migrate to F-35 program. Boeing IDS would be hit hard with F-22 program shut down.

> I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

Disabling a feature is easier, a lot easier than putting in a new one.

> have you bothered to add up how many jobs on the F-22 line are exclusive to the F-22 and not able to be migrated and skill transferred into various other programs?

What various other programs? Isn't F-35 supposed to be the only active fighter program in the US for the next 30 years?

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       7/11/2009 9:58:22 PM
@ gf0012-aust > The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

slowman > Not all F-22 subcontractors would migrate to F-35 program. Boeing IDS would be hit hard with F-22 program shut down.

er, did you even make the effort to read what I said?  you do realise that people transfer within companies to other companies - even other platform types.  eg a number of the F-22 and B2 disciplines are also in Boeing 767's, submarines and hypersonics.  a number are in ISR programs involving UAS.  There are any number of defence contractors in here who've worked for Boeing, gone to Lockmart and ended up at Raytheon (or whatever variant you want to make up).   Military contractors I deal with have rarely worked just for the one company.  It's a small community, the skillsets are valuable, and people shift and.or get poached all he time.
If you think that Boeing has not been able to plan for the future life of one of their cells when this has been a front and centre debate for more than 5 years - then Boeing deserve to go the way of GM.   


@ gf0012-aust > I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

slowman > Disabling a feature is easier, a lot easier than putting in a new one.

really, tell me subsystem on the F-22 you have knowledge of - I'm all ears.  You obviously know stuff all about how the F-22 and JSF are built.  You just can't "switch off" intimate systems.  It's not like your samsung integrated amplifier.

@ gf0012-aust > have you bothered to add up how many jobs on the F-22 line are exclusive to the F-22 and not able to be migrated and skill transferred into various other programs?

slowman > What various other programs? Isn't F-35 supposed to be the only active fighter program in the US for the next 30 years?

again, make the effort to read what I said and not what you want me to say to fit your response.  The US will have at least 3 mainstream manned combat aircraft platforms sans type in service for the next 30 years.  in 30 years time the through life support for both the JSF and the SHornet will make the F-22 increasingly a support orphan.  There will be at least 3 block variants in service and the earlier Blocks will progressively get closer to ANG status due to those support issues.
and for goodness sake, the sensor system and signature mechanics management for a manned fighter today is already prevalent in UAS, is already viewed as being able to be miniaturised for other delivery systems. 



 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust    fixed   7/11/2009 10:02:14 PM

@ gf0012-aust > The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

slowman > Not all F-22 subcontractors would migrate to F-35 program. Boeing IDS would be hit hard with F-22 program shut down.

er, did you even make the effort to read what I said?  you do realise that people transfer within companies to other companies - even other platform types.  eg a number of the F-22 and B2 disciplines are also in Boeing 767's, submarines and hypersonics.  a number are in ISR programs involving UAS.  There are any number of defence contractors in here who've worked for Boeing, gone to Lockmart and ended up at Raytheon (or whatever variant you want to make up).   Military contractors I deal with have rarely worked just for the one company.  It's a small community, the skillsets are valuable, and people shift and.or get poached all he time.
If you think that Boeing has not been able to plan for the future life of one of their cells when this has been a front and centre debate for more than 5 years - then Boeing deserve to go the way of GM.   

@ gf0012-aust > I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

slowman > Disabling a feature is easier, a lot easier than putting in a new one.

really, tell me subsystem on the F-22 you have knowledge of - I'm all ears.  You obviously know stuff all about how the F-22 and JSF are built.  You just can't "switch off" intimate systems.  It's not like your samsung integrated amplifier.




@ gf0012-aust > have you bothered to add up how many jobs on the F-22 line are exclusive to the F-22 and not able to be migrated and skill transferred into various other programs?

slowman > What various other programs? Isn't F-35 supposed to be the only active fighter program in the US for the next 30 years?

again, make the effort to read what I said and not what you want me to say to fit your response.  The US will have at least 3 mainstream manned combat aircraft platforms sans type in service for the next 30 years.  in 30 years time the through life support for both the JSF and the SHornet will make the F-22 increasingly a support orphan.  There will be at least 3 block variants in service and the earlier Blocks will progressively get closer to ANG status due to those support issues.

and for goodness sake, the sensor system and signature mechanics management for a manned fighter today is already prevalent in UAS, is already viewed as being able to be miniaturised for other delivery systems. 









 
Quote    Reply

enomosiki       7/12/2009 12:58:55 AM
Skipping all the conversation about weapons specs and getting back to the original topic; both the Typhoon and F-35 have very little chance of winning Japan's F-X bid. Japan will almost certainly go for license production, which means that, out of the all available candidates, the proposed F-15FX that's been talked about for a while, which will have all of the capabilities of F-15E/K/SG and perhaps more, while being the most cost efficient due to ASDF's ample experience with Charlies in terms of production, logistics, deployment, integration and maintenance, will have a significant edge over the competition.
 
And, speaking of Japan's desire for the F-22; the Congress does not want to export the Raptor, yet. Japan has stated that it is willing to make compromises and will settle for reduced-capability variant of the F-22 if necessary, but the bean counters aren't dumb--if a reduced-capability variant is to be produced, it will mean a massive spending for R&D to redesign an aircraft of an epic scale in terms of capability to make it do less, driving up the overall cost of the new variant to the point where it will be nearly as expensive as the original but with significantly reduced capability. Throw in the fact that the Japanese aren't going to purchase many of it, as well as the usual pork-barreling associated with the fact that nearly all of them minus the initial batch being domestically produced in Japan, (they make some of the most expensive hardwares to date, but they don't carry much bang for their buck) not to mention very slim prospect of exporting the new variant to other nations due to their high costs on LM and Boeing's part, will mean that the combined R&D and production cost will be enormous.
 
Simply put; reduced-capability F-22 is NOT going to happen. Heck, it will be more efficient in terms of nearly every aspect for Japan to shoot for F-35 instead.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       7/12/2009 4:16:33 AM

@ Herald12345



> 1000 kilometers is not necessary when 300 kilometers will do. (The missile is air launch capable.)

Japan's F-15 and F-4 cannot launch Harpoons. Only F-2 could. Just add up F-2 combat radius + 300 km range and and you can see it doesn't go as far enough to hit Beijing and Seoul, whereas 1,000 km+ cruise missiles launched from Beijing and Seoul could hit Tokyo. Japanese are at a great disadvantage here, and this is indeed what Chinese and Koreans are threatening; they would hit Tokyo if Japanese attempted a military action against islands claimed by them.

That is Japan's problem and Japan's  foulup and NOT my problem.
Its not that hard to do. Just ask somebody competent. Raytheon will be glad to help.

@ gf0012-aust

>  The vision to save F-22 jobs is a smoke and mirrors argument that has almost zero weight

Not all F-22 subcontractors would migrate to F-35 program. Boeing IDS would be hit hard with F-22 program shut down.

> I have deliberately alluded to the fact that the only way that you can build an export F-22 is to baseline it and start again.  the core capabilities are deeply integrated and can't be isolated.  it's a not a reharness, its a new build.

Disabling a feature is easier, a lot easier than putting in a new one.

How many times do I have to write shared computer network?


> have you bothered to add up how many jobs on the F-22 line are exclusive to the F-22 and not able to be migrated and skill transferred into various other programs?

What various other programs? Isn't F-35 supposed to be the only active fighter program in the US for the next 30 years?

Nope. But first we have to clean house so those programs get funding.



 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics