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Subject: Impending collapse of U.S. tactical aviation procurement
Phaid    6/6/2009 1:59:31 PM
The U.S. Air Force announced this week that it will "review" its requirement for 1,763 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters during the comprehensive Quadrennial Defense Review which is now under way. According to Air Force Chief of Staff Norton Schwartz, the number of F-35s "could end up being less," he said, but he expects to have "well over" 1,500 F-35s. This nonetheless reflects a potential reduction of 200 or more F-35s from the Air Force procurement alone. Meanwhile, the JSF program executive officer (PEO)Marine Corps Brig. Gen. David Heinz, stated in an interview with Aviation Week that funding for the F136 alternate engine must be stopped because there is not enough money in the budget to both fund the engine development and produce the expected number of F-35s. According to Heinz, continuing the F136 procurement would "take 50-80 tails out of the program" at a critical early stage of LRIP production, which would cause the unit price to rise, and cause the program to collapse as international partners pull out. "I worry about taking tails out of the program because it will get so expensive the partners will start to pull back", said Heinz. Heinz's concerns illustrate just how much of a financial knife's edge the F-35 program is already riding. The F136 development contract was awarded in 2005 and is scheduled to end in 2013. This means the F136 development has annual cost of $300 million. According to these numbers, three hundred million dollars per year is the difference between success and failure of a tactical aviation program that has completed less than 5% of flight testing. But now, even notwithstanding the F136 engine, the Air Force already looking at reducing F-35 procurement numbers, which again means the unit price will necessarily go up. And the Air Force' potential reductions will be much larger, and have far more of an effect on the unit price, than the ones Heinz is concerned about due to the F136. The fewer airplanes are purchased, the more unit price goes up; the more unit price goes up, the less orders will be placed, resulting in a death spiral. And the ripple effects will be devastating: the Navy was criticized this week in Congressional hearings for buying too few F/A-18s in order to make room in their budget for future F-35 purchases. At the same time, the Air Force, which has put off recapitalizing its fighter fleet for two decades, recently decided to retire 250 tactical aircraft ahead of schedule in order to save money to buy more F-35s. All of those cuts and procurement reductions are based on current F-35 cost estimates and current F-35 production numbers. As testing and budgets impact the F-35 production rates, and the number of airframes purchased continue to dwindle, it is becoming clear that the services are sacrificing their fighter fleets to fund an airplane that will never be procured in enough numbers to meet their needs.
 
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Herald12345    I know what the heat problems are, Childe.   6/14/2009 7:09:44 PM

Btw Herald , can you prove your sentence right ? :

 


""That is one time he is in error if he said it.""

 

Be very carefull in what you say Herald as the F-35 has indeed huge heat problems .

 

Cheers .


 

 



They have to do with the heat exchangers and their placement (which Bill Sweetman keeps reporting WRONG by the way) which is why I'm surprised that Phaid, if he said that, said that. He mist know about tunnel convection cooling. I should hope so. since its not like the US hasn't encountered hot engine core cooling before and not solved THAT problem. 
 
Haven't got a clue as to what I just said do you, BW?
 
Herald
 
 
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Bluewings12       6/14/2009 7:10:57 PM
Warpig :
""well, yeah, it probably will have difficulty meeting the requirement.""
 
Well , this is the least you can say , lol !
 
""If it has problems, it will be in reducing its heat signature to the LO levels as required; which levels, by the way, are lower than non-LO fighters like the F-15, Su-30, EF, or Rafale, by definition of being LO""
 
lol !! What a load of BS . Now , you try to compare the IR signature management of Rafale with F-15 (???) , SU-30 (???) , Typhoon (only 2 "??") and F-35 (I give 5 "?????") .
Are you drunk Warpig ?
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       6/14/2009 7:15:58 PM
Herald :
""Haven't got a clue as to what I just said do you, BW?""
 
Yes I have :-) and I find your answer a "bit short" , you should have done better as they are plenty of stuff around on the Net but they are all mostly going against you .
Do you have trouble to google anything going YOUR way , Herald ?
 
Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    fanrasy boy.......   6/14/2009 7:48:10 PM

Herald :


""Haven't got a clue as to what I just said do you, BW?""

 

Yes I have :-) and I find your answer a "bit short" , you should have done better as they are plenty of stuff around on the Net but they are all mostly going against you .


Do you have trouble to google anything going YOUR way , Herald ?

 

Cheers .




Your pretense just cracks me up.

 
It also works on plasmas, fan boy.
 
Herald
 
 
 
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Reactive       6/14/2009 7:55:28 PM
 F35 is, in all likelihood one of the last major manned fighter programs, how long will it be before there is a UCAV (or combination of several) that can perform ALL planned missions?
 
I would genuinely like to ask what that answer is? Because presumably it is the determining factor in deciding what your total manned fighter fleet for the next 30 years should be.
 
 
 
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warpig       6/14/2009 8:24:28 PM

Warpig :

""well, yeah, it probably will have difficulty meeting the requirement.""

 
Well , this is the least you can say , lol !

 
""If it has problems, it will be in reducing its heat signature to the LO levels as required; which levels, by the way, are lower than non-LO fighters like the F-15, Su-30, EF, or Rafale, by definition of being LO""

 
lol !! What a load of BS . Now , you try to compare the IR signature management of Rafale with F-15 (???) , SU-30 (???) , Typhoon (only 2 "??") and F-35 (I give 5 "?????") .

 
Like so many other aircraft- and missile-related topics, you are repetitiously clueless on this one as well.  There was a thread maybe a year or two ago in which we were beating you senseless about something to do with IRSTs, MICA IR, or both.  I know that so far this describes probably a dozen different threads; but in the thread I'm remembering there was an awesome post or two by someone (Leroy?  Phaid?  Someone like them who as always was right on target) that really described some significant details about the F-35s IR signature management and how what was important and what was special about the F-35 was the reduction of hot spots, and how the F-35 manages this in particular by dissipating the heat across the airframe by using the fuel system.  I await the details of any other fighter that does this.
 
 
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Bluewings12       6/14/2009 9:24:30 PM
While Herald is learning stuff on the Net about heat transfer (good to him but it will be of no use regarding the F-35) , my answer will be to Warpig . You said :
""and how the F-35 manages this in particular by dissipating the heat across the airframe by using the fuel system.""
 
The technology DOES NOT WORK . Is that plain enough ? Then , if you would check how the heat transfer devices failed repeatedly you would NOT bring this crap again . The entire cooling system has to be re-designed again but it will not work , whatever the efforts made . The culprit is the aircraft design itself , you should restart from scratch with a twin engine first ...
 
""I await the details of any other fighter that does this.""
 
You will not find any because the technology doesn 't work as I said .
 
Regarding my posts about French opticals , IRSTs and missiles , I stick to what I said and rightly .
 
Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    You !@#$%^&*()_+!   6/14/2009 9:38:00 PM

While Herald is learning stuff on the Net about heat transfer (good to him but it will be of no use regarding the F-35) , my answer will be to Warpig . You said :


""and how the F-35 manages this in particular by dissipating the heat across the airframe by using the fuel system.""

 

The technology DOES NOT WORK . Is that plain enough ? Then , if you would check how the heat transfer devices failed repeatedly you would NOT bring this crap again . The entire cooling system has to be re-designed again but it will not work , whatever the efforts made . The culprit is the aircraft design itself , you should restart from scratch with a twin engine first ...


 


""I await the details of any other fighter that does this.""

 

You will not find any because the technology doesn 't work as I said .

 

Regarding my posts about French opticals , IRSTs and missiles , I stick to what I said and rightly .


 

Cheers .




I've forgotten more about heat dissipation and CPT cooling than you have ever learned about anything.
 
The rules prevent me from addressing you in the gutter language you deserve.
 
How about you trying to describe how you carry heat out of the hot zone of a turbofan so that it doesn't melt the engine combustion pot walls, cretin?
 
This is what I want to read from you, truck driver.
 
Put up or be silent.
 
Herald.

 
 
 
 
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warpig       6/14/2009 9:38:51 PM


""and how the F-35 manages this in particular by dissipating the heat across the airframe by using the fuel system.""


The technology DOES NOT WORK . Is that plain enough ? Then , if you would check how the heat transfer devices failed repeatedly you would NOT bring this crap again . The entire cooling system has to be re-designed again but it will not work , whatever the efforts made . The culprit is the aircraft design itself , you should restart from scratch with a twin engine first ...


""I await the details of any other fighter that does this.""


You will not find any because the technology doesn 't work as I said .
 



Feel free to explain to me what it is about the special cooling features of the F-35 that does not work.  If you don't know how or what to say, then go ahead and at least please cite whatever it is you read that lead you to this conclusion.
 
 
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Bluewings12       6/14/2009 10:01:29 PM
Herald , you made me laugh BIG time ! lol ! No bad intented , it is just how my sense of humour did put you down and made you go berserk , lol !
But I am right and correct Herald ;-) 
 
""How about you trying to describe how you carry heat out of the hot zone of a turbofan so that it doesn't melt the engine combustion pot walls, cretin?""
 
Since you can 't respond to my point about how shitty the F-35 cooling system is , you ask me for some technicals details who have NOTHING to do with the matter at hand . One more time , you are trying to escape the point with a loser attack . Well done , how crap you are ... Sure , I could perfectly answer your question with 2 pdfs from Snecma but I will no play your game . Get lost or answer my point , THEN I might consider answering yours .
 
Cheers .

 
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