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Subject: Impending collapse of U.S. tactical aviation procurement
Phaid    6/6/2009 1:59:31 PM
The U.S. Air Force announced this week that it will "review" its requirement for 1,763 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters during the comprehensive Quadrennial Defense Review which is now under way. According to Air Force Chief of Staff Norton Schwartz, the number of F-35s "could end up being less," he said, but he expects to have "well over" 1,500 F-35s. This nonetheless reflects a potential reduction of 200 or more F-35s from the Air Force procurement alone. Meanwhile, the JSF program executive officer (PEO)Marine Corps Brig. Gen. David Heinz, stated in an interview with Aviation Week that funding for the F136 alternate engine must be stopped because there is not enough money in the budget to both fund the engine development and produce the expected number of F-35s. According to Heinz, continuing the F136 procurement would "take 50-80 tails out of the program" at a critical early stage of LRIP production, which would cause the unit price to rise, and cause the program to collapse as international partners pull out. "I worry about taking tails out of the program because it will get so expensive the partners will start to pull back", said Heinz. Heinz's concerns illustrate just how much of a financial knife's edge the F-35 program is already riding. The F136 development contract was awarded in 2005 and is scheduled to end in 2013. This means the F136 development has annual cost of $300 million. According to these numbers, three hundred million dollars per year is the difference between success and failure of a tactical aviation program that has completed less than 5% of flight testing. But now, even notwithstanding the F136 engine, the Air Force already looking at reducing F-35 procurement numbers, which again means the unit price will necessarily go up. And the Air Force' potential reductions will be much larger, and have far more of an effect on the unit price, than the ones Heinz is concerned about due to the F136. The fewer airplanes are purchased, the more unit price goes up; the more unit price goes up, the less orders will be placed, resulting in a death spiral. And the ripple effects will be devastating: the Navy was criticized this week in Congressional hearings for buying too few F/A-18s in order to make room in their budget for future F-35 purchases. At the same time, the Air Force, which has put off recapitalizing its fighter fleet for two decades, recently decided to retire 250 tactical aircraft ahead of schedule in order to save money to buy more F-35s. All of those cuts and procurement reductions are based on current F-35 cost estimates and current F-35 production numbers. As testing and budgets impact the F-35 production rates, and the number of airframes purchased continue to dwindle, it is becoming clear that the services are sacrificing their fighter fleets to fund an airplane that will never be procured in enough numbers to meet their needs.
 
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DarthAmerica       6/13/2009 2:14:33 PM

Not so much Darth. You have posted many items that I for one don't find relevant to the discussion (the whole DA/UAV issue isn't relevant in the slightest for the USAF air to the air role). I have made specific predictions that are not taking years to unfold as you suggest. For instance, I predicted once the F22 program was cut the F35 would be set up for dismissal in short order. We see that happening in days, not years or even months.

Predictions on the air superiority aircraft debate, based upon history and factual analysis. Me one you zero. At least I will hang it out and tell you what the future brings. No spin or double-speak from the Rock.

Check Six

Rocky

Rocky,

Talks of cutting the F-35 are not new and nor are they policy. All of the people who would have to make those decisions are saying that it's a guarantee we will have an F-35 centric USAF and the EXACT NUMBERS could be "more" or "less" than the original requirement based on what threats the DoD was preparing to deal with. I have never disagreed with that and my opinion is that we will get about 1500-1700 or so. The a2a capable UCAV is extremely relevant because it represents one of the last bastions of exclusively human missions. Although UCAVs have already crossed this line however. 

Why then does it make sense to blindly commit to buy x number of y platforms to handle scenario z when x and y have dependencies on z? That would be like the DoD having a multi-billion dollar super stealth Hanzo Sword submitted to replace the M4/M16 for the Infantry. We really don't know for sure what z will be Rocky. We do know that it is unlikely to remain as it was and that technology has made more options for y available.

-DA 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    what we know and what we don't know...   6/13/2009 3:08:37 PM
Why then does it make sense to blindly commit to buy x number of y platforms to handle scenario z when x and y have dependencies on z? That would be like the DoD having a multi-billion dollar super stealth Hanzo Sword submitted to replace the M4/M16 for the Infantry. We really don't know for sure what z will be Rocky. We do know that it is unlikely to remain as it was and that technology has made more options for y available. -DA 
 
It is true I suppose that nobody may ever challenge the US military again. We therefore don't need an air force do we. Well, wait. What if our interests are attacked simply because we no longer have a defense? but if we had a adequate defense we wouldn't have been attacked, so then we didn't really need the military since we weren't attacked did we? Sarcasm off -
 
Okay, back to cases. We know we have some need for an air defense fighter. Check. We know historically we have had to fight on most continents where air dominance needed to be absolutely assured before the seas and the land could be secured for ours and our allies's operations, check and check. We have a track record since the Cold War and in fact we have had continuous operations BARCAP, TACAP, ADIZ  (24/7/365 mind you...) in foreign and domestic theaters; check, check, and check. (these truths are self evident)
 
Given what we know, how best might we fulfill these needs? Building two completely new platforms from the ground up isn't in the cards (F22 + F35= won't happen). Remember as a nation we are literally broke, no money, fini, nada, zip, zilch, no scratch, empty pockets. The project of the F35 will be cut, slashed, or greatly reduced (alright, a point in contention between US but we will let time reveal that truth as it already is.... see Phaid's post to open this thread), so how then do we procure enough new airframes to meet our needs within the budgetary restraints of the day?
 
1. scratch the F35 (the only limitation the F22 has v. the F35 is it can not drop 2000 lb bombs in stealth mode. I am reasonably sure we can work around that limitation without busting the bank by either refitting the internal carriage or using other means to deliver those specific munitions. Like the B-2)
2. Build more F22s (they actually cost less today than the F35 will in the next 3-5 years assuming F35 funding continues as planned and as we see above it is not going to be funded "as planned")
3. Super Hornets production is continued for continental defense and multi role operations in the USN, USAF, and USMC (sorry Phaid but the Super Bug has more potential than the F16's IMV)
4. Retire the legacy aircraft as their airframe limits are reached.
 
Problem Solved.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
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Herald12345    Check the guys in your corner?   6/13/2009 6:09:52 PM






To Darth. You have yet to successfully carry your position here based upon fact or history. IMV you have to ignore both to keep a straight face, which I doubt you really do. But a straight face isn't required when communicating upon this medium. Herald is right about this one. So is Phaid, so is Sentinel, so am I. The F35 won't be built in numbers big enough to meet our needs and we will not be able to react to potential threats with overwhelming force required to scare our enemies off of challenging US.




Check Six




Rocky




Disagree. And if you read the threads, there are more than a few who agree with me. But that doesn't make me right or wrong. The same applies to Phaid, Sentinel, Herald and You. These are opinions. Mine happens to be shared by the people calling the shots now. For me or you to be right, TIME has to pass so that events can demonstrate the truth of the matter. You see, there were people who said the A-10 and B-52 were not relevant to modern wars. There were people who said not procuring more B-2A's would leave us in peril. Those could have been considered reasonable assumptions back then. Now things have turned out differently. The same is true here.




What's going on is that most of you are of the opinion that these cuts are bad. So you are seeking out OSINT news to support your positions. I do the same thing. In the end we are just going to have to wait and see which analysis is correct. Because as you have seen, I can post just as much in support of my side including the actual decisions. 







-DA 


Mt opinbions are professional and data driven based on history and well understood science. What are yours again, poster?

Authority figure statements (Gates, the proven liar, for example), your declarations of secret knowledge*1 and "expertise"*1 and your fantasies (assertions*1) declared to be facts?
 
I scoff*1 as usual.
 
Herald

*1 Look it up, poster..
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/14/2009 2:31:58 AM

Mt opinbions are professional and data driven based on history and well understood science. What are yours again, poster?

Authority figure statements (Gates, the proven liar, for example), your declarations of secret knowledge*1 and "expertise"*1 and your fantasies (assertions*1) declared to be facts?

I scoff*1 as usual.

Herald

*1 Look it up, poster..


There is nothing professional about your behavior here. NOTHING. Professionals don't hold grudges like this against anonymous "posters" nor do they get personally offended by disagreement. Moreover, data rarely backs up what you say because you refuse to consider other views. Your knowledge of history and science and more appropriately called HIS-story and Religion because if it isn't your view, then it has to be utterly wrong, incompetent ect ect. Herald, threads I start generate hundreds of replies and it is because I am willing to entertain the idea that everyone else isn't necessarily going to see things my way. Try it and maybe you might learn something.

 -DA


 
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Herald12345    Tpou have nothing to teach me.    6/14/2009 3:15:48 AM




Mt opinbions are professional and data driven based on history and well understood science. What are yours again, poster?



Authority figure statements (Gates, the proven liar, for example), your declarations of secret knowledge*1 and "expertise"*1 and your fantasies (assertions*1) declared to be facts?




I scoff*1 as usual.




Herald




*1 Look it up, poster..








There is nothing professional about your behavior here. NOTHING. Professionals don't hold grudges like this against anonymous "posters" nor do they get personally offended by disagreement. Moreover, data rarely backs up what you say because you refuse to consider other views. Your knowledge of history and science and more appropriately called HIS-story and Religion because if it isn't your view, then it has to be utterly wrong, incompetent ect ect. Herald, threads I start generate hundreds of replies and it is because I am willing to entertain the idea that everyone else isn't necessarily going to see things my way. Try it and maybe you might learn something.



 -DA








 
When you learn to research, before you comment, ignorantly on a topic, especially when you demand of others behavior you have NEVER shown, then somebody might take your advice. It won't be me since I don't respect you on any subject now, but at least you can try Luke 4: 23, and attempt to fool some other person that you have something worth saying to consider.
 
That is a PROFESSIONAL who sees right through your 'act' who speaks to you.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
 
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Heorot       6/14/2009 11:32:32 AM











Mt opinbions are professional and data driven based on history and well understood science. What are yours again, poster?







Authority figure statements (Gates, the proven liar, for example), your declarations of secret knowledge*1 and "expertise"*1 and your fantasies (assertions*1) declared to be facts?










I scoff*1 as usual.










Herald










*1 Look it up, poster..




















There is nothing professional about your behavior here. NOTHING. Professionals don't hold grudges like this against anonymous "posters" nor do they get personally offended by disagreement. Moreover, data rarely backs up what you say because you refuse to consider other views. Your knowledge of history and science and more appropriately called HIS-story and Religion because if it isn't your view, then it has to be utterly wrong, incompetent ect ect. Herald, threads I start generate hundreds of replies and it is because I am willing to entertain the idea that everyone else isn't necessarily going to see things my way. Try it and maybe you might learn something.







 -DA





















 

When you learn to research, before you comment, ignorantly on a topic, especially when you demand of others behavior you have NEVER shown, then somebody might take your advice. It won't be me since I don't respect you on any subject now, but at least you can try Luke 4: 23, and attempt to fool some other person that you have something worth saying to consider.

 

That is a PROFESSIONAL who sees right through your 'act' who speaks to you.


 

Herald


 

 

 


 
The only thing that you are PROFESSIONAL at is Googling the web and mouthing off at those who's research/opinions diverge from your own.
 
Please enlighton us: what are your so-called PROFESSIONAL qualifications? What is your position (apart from sitting on your fat arse in front of a PC?
 
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mustang22       6/14/2009 1:13:58 PM
1. scratch the F35 (the only limitation the F22 has v. the F35 is it can not drop 2000 lb bombs in stealth mode. I am reasonably sure we can work around that limitation without busting the bank by either refitting the internal carriage or using other means to deliver those specific munitions. Like the B-2)
2. Build more F22s (they actually cost less today than the F35 will in the next 3-5 years assuming F35 funding continues as planned and as we see above it is not going to be funded "as planned")
3. Super Hornets production is continued for continental defense and multi role operations in the USN, USAF, and USMC (sorry Phaid but the Super Bug has more potential than the F16's IMV)
4. Retire the legacy aircraft as their airframe limits are reached.
 
Problem Solved.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
I was going to suggest the Super Hornet theory a while back but figured I would have been chastised for suggesting that the AF utilize an aircraft designed for the Navy. Your plan makes sense, the F-18E/F is the most capable multi-role available and in current production. I would think by the time the F-35 program matures, a stealthy UCAV could be developed to perform a similar role for a lot cheaper.
 
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Phaid    mustang22 reply   6/14/2009 2:27:36 PM
Well, as you know I have advocated pretty much the exact same thing.  IMO the downsides are either going to happen anyway (screwing over other countries because they won't be able to afford F-35s) or don't matter (the USMC not getting F-35s).
 
Capability wise I agree that Super Hornets are more expandable and generally more capable than the F-16 Block 60.  However, I am not sure that if the AF also buys more F-22s, that extra capability is really going to be needed.
 
The main reason I suggested the Air Force buy advanced F-16s is mostly to take advantage of existing logistics, and because even the F-16 Block 60 is much cheaper to operate than the Super Hornet.  The Air Force already has an enormous F-16 supply pipeline, basing, training, etc, so the Block 60 would fit into that structure very efficiently.  Switching to the Super Hornet would require a lot more infrastructure work in that sense.
 
On the other hand, if the Air Force were to buy F/A-18E/Fs, the unit cost of that aircraft would drop dramatically compared to just the Navy and Marines buying it.  So it's possible that the lifetime cost would work out the same or even in the Super Hornet's favor.  So I'm not going to violently disagree with you on this point.
 
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DarthAmerica    Phaid/Mustang reply   6/14/2009 3:21:56 PM
Seriously guys. Scrap the F-35 with all the consequences thereof which include damaged alliances as well as economic consequences. Completely rework the logistics and doctrine of the USAF since the F-35 would be gone. All just to get 60 to 200 more F-22s? Don't get me wrong, F-22, F/A-18E and F-16E are great aircraft but this approach you are suggesting is way too platform centric. If there were legitimate needs to more F-22s and the threats that were emerging suggested that we need more of them then fine, buy more. But that is not the case and certainly would not be worth the system wide disturbance that canceling the F-35 would cause.

You will see. When the F-35 gets into service and starts demonstrating it's benefits all of this discussion will seem quite unrealistic. The sun has set on the type of conflict that required many hundreds of Raptors.

-DA 
 
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Phaid    DA   6/14/2009 3:34:05 PM
Seriously guys. Scrap the F-35 with all the consequences thereof which include damaged alliances as well as economic consequences. Completely rework the logistics and doctrine of the USAF since the F-35 would be gone. All just to get 60 to 200 more F-22s? Don't get me wrong, F-22, F/A-18E and F-16E are great aircraft but this approach you are suggesting is way too platform centric.
 
No, it's not "all to get 60 to 200 more F-22s", it's all to have a 2000 airframe tactical fighter fleet in the USAF.  Something which will clearly never happen if we throw everything else away in order to get the F-35.
 
How are you reworking anything by not buying F-35s?  We don't have logistics and doctrine to accommodate the F-35 now.  We do, however, have existing logistics pipelines for the F-22, F/A-18, and F-16.
 
Strategic and economic consequences?  At the rate the F-35 is going, partner countries are going to be pulling out anyway, so it's better to cut our (and their) losses along that front.  Hell, the British are debating whether even to have CVs at all, let alone to field F-35 on them.
 
If you want to talk about strategic and economic consequences, how about the consequences of shutting down every single tactical fighter production line except one?  Loss of manufacturing base, loss of engineering talent pool, loss of competition to keep prices reasonable?
 
Talk about platform-centric... The approach Rocky, Mustang, myself and others have discussed allows us to vary the mix of capabilities based on lots of factors.  We can buy more or fewer F-22s depending on need, we can pit the F-16 and F/A-18 against one another to get Boeing and Lockheed to come down on price, etc.  Can't do any of that stuff when you commit to a single airframe.
 
But, again, the problem isn't even any of the above; the problem is that due to the state of the program and the state of the economy, the F-35 program can not and will not live up to its goals.  Sacrificing everything else in favor of a program that is doomed to fail is simply crazy.
 
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