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Subject: UNMANNED NUCLEAR BOMBER
DarthAmerica    6/3/2009 1:10:05 PM
Unmanned and nuclear
Is America ready for a UAV bomber?
BY ADAM B. LOWTHER
In the wake of the August 2007 incident in which six air-launched cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads were mistakenly flown from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., and the August 2006 incident ? acknowledged in March 2008 ? that saw top-secret nuclear fuses mistakenly shipped to Taiwan as battery packs for UH-1 Huey helicopters, Defense Secretary Robert Gates fired Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley. Gates also formed a task force to study nuclear weapons management, which led to former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger?s publication of the ?Report of the Secretary of Defense Task Force on Nuclear Weapons Management: The Air Force Nuclear Mission.? The report, along with other recent Pentagon publications, played a role in the creation of Global Strike Command ? a major command dedicated to the nuclear mission.

The mistakes had a positive outcome in that they led to the leadership?s re-examination of the entire nuclear enterprise, which served to stimulate a renaissance of thought on nuclear deterrence and the role of nuclear weapons in national security policy. As part of that renaissance, this article examines the delivery systems upon which the nuclear arsenal relies, with a focus on nuclear-capable bombers.

One issue the Schlesinger report and others like it do not discuss is the possible development of a nuclear-dedicated unmanned combat aerial vehicle (ND-UCAV) as a replacement for nuclear-capable bombers. Yet the Air Force should seriously consider replacing its nuclear-capable bombers with a ND-UCAV based on the X-47B UCAV demonstrator, which the Navy began funding in 2007. While Navy requirements focus on carrier-based ISR operations, the Air Force could take advantage of the more than $800 million previously invested in the Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems (J-UCAS) program and the $635 million currently dedicated to X-47B development and rapidly develop a ND-UVAC capable of penetrating defended air space with a small nuclear weapons payload.

To understand why the ND-UCAV is an attractive option for the future, a brief look at the current condition of the intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) and bomber legs of the nuclear triad illustrates the serious need for modernization. Three points highlight the threat to their continued credibility.

First, today?s entire Air Force bomber fleet of B-52Hs, B1-Bs and B-2s, not just nuclear-capable bombers, is 90 percent smaller than it was at its peak in 1959, when Strategic Air Command (SAC) consisted of 1,366 B-47s and 488 B-52s. Placed within a proper context, the dramatic reduction in the bomber fleet diminishes a very visible and psychologically significant element of a credible deterrent that cannot be achieved with unseen ballistic-missile submarines or ICBMs. Of the current bombers in service, all three airframes are aging and in need of costly repair and upgrades. With the entire fleet of 67 B1-Bs dedicated to conventional operations, as well as a majority of the remaining 62 B-52Hs and 20 B-2s primarily dedicated to conventional operations, the nuclear bomber fleet has dwindled to a record low.

Second, down from a 1969 peak of 1,054, the nation?s 450 remaining ICBMs are in a similar condition and, like the bomber fleet, aging rapidly even as they undergo periodic maintenance and upgrades through a number of life extension programs. Additionally, designed in the mid-1960s and fielded between the late 1960s and early 1970s, the nation?s Minuteman IIIs are housed in underground silos, which are in need of replacement. Silo replacement is cost-prohibitive and may lead to further reductions in ICBM numbers or, as some internal debate suggests, movement of Minuteman IIIs above ground.

Third, with planning for the Next-Generation Bomber (NGB) still in its early stages within the Pentagon, the current fleet of B-52Hs will be approaching 60 before the NGB is expected to enter service in about 2018. The high development costs, underwhelming performance and high maintenance costs of the B1-B are a primary reason the B-52H remained in service after a smaller-than-expected number of B1-Bs were procured. A second attempt at replacing the B-52H led to the B-2, which cost $44 billion to develop and build 21 aircraft, making the B-2 the most expensive aircraft ever built. Even if the NGB can be developed for half the cost of the B-2, each aircraft will cost taxpayers more than $1 billion. In a constrained fiscal budget, procuring an expensive weapons system may prove to be a difficult proposition. Thus, there may be an opportunity to replace an aging bomber fleet with an advanced weapons system that is affordable ? $150 million per aircraft ? and capable of providing a credible air breathing nuclear deterrent. The ND-UCAV can meet the nation?s 21st century nuclear deterrence requirements at an affordable price.

ROADBLOCKS FOR THE ND-UCAV

There are, however, four initial difficulties facing the development of the ND-UCAV. First, and most important, President Barack Obama has articulated his foreign policy agenda, which calls for continued reductions in the nuclear arsenal. Obama?s agenda suggests that expenditures related to the nuclear enterprise will come under increasing scrutiny, making it difficult to modernize the nuclear arsenal and develop advanced delivery systems. This is a particular concern for the nuclear complex because the president is actively seeking to implement Article VI of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), which calls for eventual nuclear disarmament. Thus, for example, designing a modern nuclear warhead that replaces those originally designed and built in the 1960s or designing a bomber, such as an ND-UCAV, to replace those originally designed and built in the 1950s may be viewed as creating a ?new? nuclear capability rather than as a modernization of the existing arsenal. Such a move could be considered a violation of the NPT by some.

Released just days after taking office, the president?s agenda states: ?Obama and [Vice President Joe] Biden will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons, and pursue it. Obama and Biden will always maintain a strong deterrent as long as nuclear weapons exist. But they will take several steps down the long road toward eliminating nuclear weapons. They will stop the development of new nuclear weapons; work with Russia to take U.S. and Russian ballistic missiles off hair trigger alert; seek dramatic reductions in U.S. and Russian stockpiles of nuclear weapons and material; and set a goal to expand the U.S.-Russian ban on intermediate-range missiles so that the agreement is global.?

Reality, however, has shown that lofty ideals rarely come to fruition. Ronald Reagan, an ardent supporter of denuclearization and the elimination of strategic nuclear weapons, discovered upon assuming the presidency that strategic reality not only required the U.S. to maintain a nuclear arsenal, but that the country needed to replace aging nuclear-capable bombers. It was because of the threat posed by the Soviet Union that Reagan restarted the B-1 program and, in 1981, supported development of the B-2. Despite Reagan?s long-held belief that nuclear weapons must be eliminated, reality proved quite different. The same is likely to be the case for the current president.

Second, some suggest that placing nuclear weapons on an unmanned system ? one that does not fly point to point, such as an ICBM ? places undue confidence in an aircraft that does not have the capability to adapt to unexpected circumstances. Detractors argue that a UCAV is limited by its programming, where a pilot would have the ability to adapt to an evolving situation. This has long been a complaint by opponents of unmanned aerial systems, and it will not disappear anytime soon.

Third, similar to the second critique, detractors suggest that there is a fundamental advantage to manned aviation that cannot be replicated in a UCAV. Many aviators, in particular, believe that a ?man in the loop? should remain an integral part of the nuclear mission because of the psychological perception that there is a higher degree of accountability and moral certainty with a manned bomber. These critics do not view a ?man on the loop,? as is the case with all unmanned aerial systems, as sufficient.

Fourth, the difficult circumstances facing the nuclear weapons complex are exacerbated by the perception that terrorism is the gravest threat facing the U.S. While terrorism is the most visible threat facing the nation, neither al-Qaida nor any of its affiliates threatens the sovereignty of the country, which cannot be said of America?s near-peer competitors. It is because of the U.S.? conventional and nuclear capabilities that the nation?s adversaries choose not to fight or resort to terrorism. Developing the ND-UCAV would assist the country in maintaining that dominance, which should be the preferred state of affairs.

While each of these concerns has some merit, they are not insurmountable obstacles. As with the development of every weapons system, there are costs and benefits that must be weighed. In the case of the ND-UCAV, potential benefits exceed potential costs.

MAINTAINING A CREDIBLE NUCLEAR DETERRENT

Contrary to the specific concerns of potential detractors, there are several broader reasons why the ND-UCAV could prove a valuable asset as the nation faces an ever-changing strategic environment. The implications of the ND-UCAV go well beyond the development of an unmanned weapons system. Rather than seeking to eliminate nuclear weapons, the development and procurement of a safer and more reliable arsenal is a step in the right direction. In addition to developing the ND-UCAV, development of the Reliable Replacement Warhead could address some of the safety concerns UCAV detractors voice when suggesting that a UCAV crash could allow a nuclear weapon to fall into the hands of an adversary ? such as al-Qaida.

According to the Air Force White Paper on Long Range Strike (1999), the U.S. was in peril of losing its ability to penetrate defended airspace with long-range strike aircraft more than a decade ago. Developments in anti-aircraft capabilities since the study was produced exacerbate this weakness in American long-range strike capabilities while countries such as China, Russia and Iran focused their weapons development efforts on denying the U.S. access to their airspace because it is more cost-effective than challenging the U.S. in the air. Of the current bomber fleet, only the 20 B-2s in service can penetrate modern anti-aircraft defenses. This limited ability to penetrate advanced air defenses diminishes the psychological impact of, for example, moving nuclear capable bombers forward during a crisis. Fielding a bomber, such as the ND-UCAV, with improved penetration capabilities could heighten the perceived threat and lead to an adversary backing down from a threatening posture.

The Air Force has touted the Next Generation Bomber as an intermediate solution to current deficiencies, but the NGB is, without question, not the Air Force?s preferred long-range strike solution. There is a clear view among some bomber proponents that the hypersonic bomber is the solution to current long-range strike deficiencies, if the technology is given the time needed to mature. The desire for a hypersonic bomber has created a reluctance among Air Force leaders to invest precious resources in a bomber that is perceived as a quick fix, as is the case with the NGB.

These difficulties present a substantial obstacle for the Air Force. Without dramatic improvements in the Air Force?s ability to penetrate defended airspace, the bomber leg of the nuclear triad will decline in credibility, which is not easily re-established. Substantial investments in the triad need to be made if the U.S. intends to maintain a credible nuclear deterrence in the years ahead. The nation?s adversaries are paying careful attention to the ongoing debate within this country. The Defense Science Board, the National Nuclear Security Administration, the Air Force, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Strategic Command commander Gen. Kevin Chilton are, on the one hand, arguing for nuclear modernization. On the other hand, the Arms Control Association, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Physical Society, the Center for Strategic and International Studies and others are calling for the U.S. to move toward nuclear disarmament. The ND-UCAV is a cost-effective way to maintain credibility without expanding capability.

In recent years, the Air Force has not persuasively articulated an acquisitions strategy that satisfies the need for new fighters and a new bomber. Thus, the Senate and House Armed Services Committees have proven reluctant to support Air Force funding requests for all of these programs, which may make the procurement of an ND-UCAV more difficult despite the benefits of such an acquisition.

The news is not all bad, however. As previously noted, replacing aging bombers with the ND-UCAV instead of the Next Generation Bomber will reduce acquisition costs from about $1 billion to $150 million per aircraft while meeting the need for a nuclear long-range strike capability. With more than five years and $1.4 billion already invested in the J-UCAS and N-UCAV programs, the ND-UCAV should be capable of restoring credibility to the bomber leg of the nuclear mission long before the 2018 timeframe planned for the NGB.

To highlight the benefits of the ND-UCAV:

? The ND-UCAV can provide the Air Force with an aircraft capable of delivering two B-61 thermonuclear gravity bombs at a cost well below the $1 billion of the 2018 bomber.

? The ND-UCAV can be a stealth aircraft capable of penetrating defended airspace.

? The ND-UCAV is less than half the size of the B-52H and requires a much shorter runway for takeoff and landing, allowing for greater dispersal and force realignment. Thus, in a crisis situation, the ND-UCAV can be moved forward ? to a greater number of locations ? in order to demonstrate American resolve.

? Unlike the ICBM, the ND-UCAV is recallable before weapons release.

? The ND-UCAV can change course should a target be mobile. It can also loiter should the position of a mobile target be lost or compromised.

? The ND-UCAV can be flown into contaminated areas where a human pilot might succumb to high levels of radiation.

There can be little doubt that the development of the ND-UCAV deserves further attention. As UAS technology continues to mature, there will be fewer and fewer technical obstacles that stand in the way of expanding the role of the UAS in warfare. If the Air Force embraces change that by many accounts is inevitable, a renaissance of aviation may be in store. If, however, it does not, Congress, a constrained fiscal environment and the demands of the American people may once again place the Air Force in a difficult position. Military aviators have a long tradition of heroism that is noteworthy. And, it should not be forgotten that while the ND-UCAV will remove the aviator from the pit, it does not remove the airman from the fight. Any UAS is only as capable as its designers. Like manned bombers, its limits are man-made. Keeping its strengths and weaknesses in perspective may give the ND-UCAV the fighting chance it deserves.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


-DA
 
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french stratege       6/6/2009 8:38:58 PM
No, fact actually. Bombers are more flexible and can be FWD deployed publicly as visible warning invisible missiles and SSBNs can't do that. 
If  they are stealth they can not be seen, so the point is irrelevant.
 
In fact we can think about bomber for two reasons:
1) as an alternate mean to ballistic missiles (mobile ICBM or SLBM) to make things more difficult for an ennemy which could chase subs or intercept ICBM (unlikely BTW considering US system numbers and russian or chinese limited capabilities).
Indeed bombers lauch missile which evolve in atmosphere.Missile which are likely to be stealth in the future.
But very long range cruise missile launched by conventional aircrafts would do the same.
Or we could think about a not too stealth platform like a affordable 1 m² platform in the 150/250 tons rnage which could be used as well as a LO fuel refueler for more stealth platforms like B2 or stealth tactical aircrafts or a long range cruise missile launcher to replace B52s.
Then the more economical in R&D would be a low cost derivative of B2 (using today external shape and aeroduynamic and FBW but with a more affordable structures and materials ) used as a refueler or a cruise missile launcher with affordable stealth.
 
2)as a platform able to track and detect mobile objects and so able for exemple to destroy mobile ICBM, or to destroy hardened target that SLBM/ICBM would have not destroyed after a strike assessment
Since communication are likely to be low rate (HF likely) if satellites are destroyed or long range communications blinded by nuclear blats, you need a local man to interpret data of captors (high resolution radar or optronic) and do local decisions.
Then a long range manned stealth bomber makes sense.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       6/6/2009 10:50:51 PM



How do you maintain positive weapon control again?




Answer that question for a robot and you've substantially made your case. But you can't, because unlike you I do know what you have to do. I even told you.  You missed it completely. 



And some wonder why I get irritated.





Herald










No, you didn't tell me. I know. There are many ways to safeguard the weapons. However, so long as you  post vitriol and fail to control your irritation, I'm not going to waste time dealing with your post.  You will just have to come to your own conclusions about what I know or don't know and I'm fine to let you do just that.

You assume that you will not be able to safe it; and you plan your use accordingly.

A more relevant response to the trivia of how to maintain positive control^1  would be to ask how humans do it...

Humans do it by being present to control the weapon. All physics is LOCAL!


The Air Force continued handing out disciplinary actions in response to the six nuclear warheads mistakenly flown on a B-52 Stratofortress bomber from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., on Aug. 30. The squadron commander in charge of Minot?s munitions crews was relieved of all duties pending the investigation.

They did not follow procedures that were well designed and which had worked remarkably well before the dissolution of SAC. Its called a chain of responsibility. Something you seem remartkably cavalier about and not able to understand too well. not surprising by your lacksadaisical attitude toward process and accuracy. (Yeah I know I get the dates wrong, but I don't screw up the important stuff..


 




It seems that humans can cause manned platforms to make mistakes too. Hmm. AGM-129, how do we maintain positive control of those? Case closed. Being unmanned has nothing to do with it. It's about designing sufficient safety measures into the system and properly following them. The only difference between this and what Herald asked is that the humans are sitting a ~20ft away in a cockpit from weapons they still can't physically manipulate in flight and that have to be communicated with via data bus. In essence they have to TRUST that when the data displayed says that the weapons are safed, that it is true.

Has the Navy screwed up? Nope. I know the Army has. They never found that warhead they lost.
 
By the way, we didn't launch those weapons on a war sortie. We were able to track down and recover same in a peacetume screwup. The case is therefore not closed, since we were able to MANUALLY restablish positve control relatively quickly..  You will also not be allowed to compare apples to bananas. For you see, a mistake in carriage in an internal movem,ent insode the CONUS with inert missiles that have to armed in flight by MEN is not the same as sending out a robot and trusting that your radio0 link is good enoigh. 
 
There are rather silly arguments you make on occasion, poster, that have no grounds in reality but which are based on your sheer fantasy.pf how things work. Well wake up. We arern't stupid. At least most Humans aren't. we insist on positive control up to the moment of weapon release. We have relaxed that somewhat witrh oir assassination strikes with UCAVs but even now we are still jittery about using tele-operation over own troops. Omce that rocket leaves the rail, we have no idea of what it will do. That's the truth. After sixty years of missiles no matter how reliable we still don't KNOW what an autonomous guided weapon will do.     
 
That mnissile was in automatic set default. Now you want to put a robot into exactly that default position with a nuclear weapon release option?
 
 

^1 You actually wrote that stupid comment? Unbelievable. I don't you around anything dangerous or important. You have no judgment at all, poster..

Well, if youy cannot see why your ideas are based on an in competent understanding of risk, I just have this to say. I hope you aren't in charge of anything important.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
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benellim4       6/6/2009 10:54:59 PM




Well, one person here thinks an ALCM with a range of 1500miles fired from a manned bomber on a one way mission is somehow equivalent to a nuclear armed UCAS. We didn't launch ALCMs and SRAMs and other nuclear armed cruise missiles except to test them. We don't launch a cruise missile as a show of force or in a response to an increase in DEFCON. We weren't worried about recalling a cruise missile that is what its bomber launch platform was for. 







STRAWMAN



Yes your original comparision was a strawman.
 



 A nuclear armed UCAS would have to be launched more often and fly greater distances than a cruise missile. If we lost an ALCM over uncontrolled territory that would have been the least of our worries. More important would have been the nuclear weapons exploding all across the planet. If we have a UCAS lost, which is more likely to happen than with a manned bomber then we have a major incident like that over Georgia or the Med.


 


 


All incorrect. A UCAS would not need the training flight hours manned platforms do. A UCAS would be able to loiter for days or weeks in the timeframe we are discussion. And it is not more likely that to have losses than a manned platform. That's a myth.


All incorrect? So we launched more nuclear armed cruise missiles than bombers or in this case a UCAS? A UCAS would have to fly fewer miles than a cruise missile? I don't think so.
You're talking about having a UCAS loiter, armed with nuclear weapons, for days or weeks. In order to be effective, it would have to loiter in airspace outside our direct control, which means if it landed uncontrollably, it would be in territoriy outside our direct control. That's a Broken Arrow scenario waiting to happen.
As for training, guess what? Most of our training missions didn't have nuclear weapons onboard. Only missions designed to test the system, not really to train the pilots, had actual weapons onboard. And the need to test the system would remain. Actually, since you're proposing a new system, it would have to be tested more often, not less, to ensure its survivability and reliability.



 



One person here thinks that dropping two A-bombs on a country that had none, bombs that burst at 1850ft is the same thing as nuclear war. One person here thinks that two bombs, dropped from B-29s, which had little sensor ability some 64 years ago thinks that gave us "tons of data."



LOL more spin. Unless you think WW II wasn't a war and you also think the bombs were not nuclear than you are simply no longer credible now as you are overtly denying the truth. Also, if you think we don't have "tons of data" on nuclear weapons effects then that's on you. I know and have proved we do. I wasn't referring to B-29's which is another strawman. Mutual exchange of weapons isn't necessary to have a nuclear war. If I nuke you, and the blow forces your surrender or destruction, and you can't fight back after, it's still a nuke war Benellim4. It only takes one gun to have a gunfight.




-DA

 Where did you prove we had tons of data from WWII? That is what you asserted. If we had tons of relevant data then we wouldn't have been shocked to discover the effects of EMP. EMP, TREE and other effects are still not as understood as we would like. That's because we stopped testing in the open atmosphere long before we understood all the effects of nuclear weapons completely.
So by your definition of nuclear war, you seem to assume that we will strike first and strike mercilessly, allowing your beloved UCAS to survive. Too bad you can't count on that in an actual nuclear war.
 
Oh and WWII was not a nuclear war. It was a conventional war with two atomic bombs dropped at the end. A true nuclear war requires an exchange. A gunfight has two guns. A shooting has one. Big difference.








 
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Herald12345    Velocity Vector    6/6/2009 11:44:05 PM
 
(Dumbed down of course)
 
 
 
 
 
You'll have to combine the data to get a picture.
 
Oh, let me add this.
 
 
Let me state for the record that machines are STUPID.
 
Herald 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       6/6/2009 11:48:04 PM
Well, BenelliM4, I suppose we just have to agree to disagree.

-DA 
 
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LB    Nice Assertion   6/7/2009 7:58:36 AM
That's a very interesting assertion you've made.  I'm sure many people on this board can list dozens of extremely cogent reasons why this is in fact not so; however, why not get ahead of the curve and simply offer enough evidence to prove your assertion is in fact correct.
 
Your last assertion I cited below is at direct odds with the facts.  It would behoove you to actually make yourself aware of loss rates of say typical USAF aircraft and UAVs.  According to the USAF by 2007 it had lost half of all it's Predators which I believe has been reduced to 1/3 today.  The loss rate of the Predator is around an order of magnitude greater than USAF aircraft.  Loss rate of USAF F-16s are 3 to 4 per 100,000 hours, around 3.5 for the B-1, and 1.5 for the B-52.  Predator loss rate is over 30 per 100,000 hours.  Note this a mature platform.  Other UAVs have much higher loss rates.
 
In other words your assertion that a UAV is going to be as or more reliable than a normal combat aircraft is not supported by any facts whatsoever and in fact is fact pure fiction.
 
The 2002 DOD UAV roadmap called for loss rate of large UAVs to be reduced to 25 by 2009.  It's still over 30.  This of course in a 100% benign electronic arena with no potential enemy going after our sat network in the myriad number of ways, beyond lobbing up something to explode nearby like China did recently, that our enemies plan.
 
Frankly you are back to stating UCAV's can peform air superiority missions and now you are stating that within 10 years they can do the penetrating nuclear bomber role as well "as reliably as a manned platform in any environment".  It's just total rubbish and falling back and saying well it's your opinion is not going to wash as it's not supported by any facts in evidence- quite the contrary.
 
 
Fast forward 5 to 9 years and assume a program started to build the nuclear UCAV was initiated today. It would be very much within the realm of possible to have a technologically mature platform capable of doing this duty at least as reliably as a manned platform in any environment.




-DA 

 
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LB    Nice Assertion   6/7/2009 8:38:44 AM
That's a very interesting assertion you've made.  I'm sure many people on this board can list dozens of extremely cogent reasons why this is in fact not so; however, why not get ahead of the curve and simply offer enough evidence to prove your assertion is in fact correct.
 
Your last assertion I cited below is at direct odds with the facts.  It would behoove you to actually make yourself aware of loss rates of say typical USAF aircraft and UAVs.  According to the USAF by 2007 it had lost half of all it's Predators which I believe has been reduced to 1/3 today.  The loss rate of the Predator is around an order of magnitude greater than USAF aircraft.  Loss rate of USAF F-16s are 3 to 4 per 100,000 hours, around 3.5 for the B-1, and 1.5 for the B-52.  Predator loss rate is over 30 per 100,000 hours.  Note this a mature platform.  Other UAVs have much higher loss rates.
 
In other words your assertion that a UAV is going to be as or more reliable than a normal combat aircraft is not supported by any facts whatsoever and in fact is fact pure fiction.
 
The 2002 DOD UAV roadmap called for loss rate of large UAVs to be reduced to 25 by 2009.  It's still over 30.  This of course in a 100% benign electronic arena with no potential enemy going after our sat network in the myriad number of ways, beyond lobbing up something to explode nearby like China did recently, that our enemies plan.
 
Frankly you are back to stating UCAV's can peform air superiority missions and now you are stating that within 10 years they can do the penetrating nuclear bomber role as well "as reliably as a manned platform in any environment".  It's just total rubbish and falling back and saying well it's your opinion is not going to wash as it's not supported by any facts in evidence- quite the contrary.
 
 
Fast forward 5 to 9 years and assume a program started to build the nuclear UCAV was initiated today. It would be very much within the realm of possible to have a technologically mature platform capable of doing this duty at least as reliably as a manned platform in any environment.




-DA 

 
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breaka       6/7/2009 11:39:26 AM

Herald,

Not trying to play gotcha with dates, just the fact that when you say it was "the idiot Clinton admisinistration that disbanded SAC", the fact is it was not, it was the Bush administration.  I did not like a lot of policies of the Clinton administration, but I can't blame them for disbanding SAC, only for doing nothing in 8 years to address the issue, and GWB didn't really change it for the 1st 7 years until we accidentally started flying live nukes.

 I think I misunderstood your statement about Nixon in the '73 war - thought you were refering to going DEFCON 3 in response to Soviet threats to act unilaterally if the US did not act with it to end the Israeli advance.  Hadn't heard about the  drunk thing, but had seen claims like this one about Kissinger running things himself:

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/845041.html

Whatever one feels about Nixon, it's kind of scary that an unelected official basically may have (not enough here to convince me it's 100% truth) ran foreign policy behind the Presidents back and elevated a superpower crisis like that.  Kissinger is a smart guy, but not as smart as he thinks he is and too Machiavellian for my tastes.

Last note to get back on subject of post: I will not believe they will trust nuclear weapons on a UAV until they trust them on passenger aircraft.  Even if technically possible, people will want the comfort of a crew in direct control exercising some judgement.  Here's another curve ball for you: Nuke armed UAV takes off out of say, Ellsworth. It develops a fuel leak in flight.  It can either run out of gas and crash, or it can land at a nearby international airport.  In the case of a manned bomber, you have an armed crew that can guard the weapon until security forces arrive or disable it if necessary.  What does the UAV do?

 
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Herald12345       6/7/2009 12:38:47 PM

Herald,


Not trying to play gotcha with dates, just the fact that when you say it was "the idiot Clinton administration that disbanded SAC", the fact is it was not, it was the Bush administration.  I did not like a lot of policies of the Clinton administration, but I can't blame them for disbanding SAC, only for doing nothing in 8 years to address the issue, and GWB didn't really change it for the 1st 7 years until we accidentally started flying live nukes.

Its okay. I make all too many mistakes. Most of SAC's disassembly occurred under Clinton. It takes time to shuffle  things ( at least a couple of years). If Clinton disagreed then he could have stopped it. 

 I think I misunderstood your statement about Nixon in the '73 war - thought you were referring to going DEFCON 3 in response to Soviet threats to act unilaterally if the US did not act with it to end the Israeli advance.  Hadn't heard about the  drunk thing, but had seen claims like this one about Kissinger running things himself:

Kissinger was/is a disaster, too much pseudo-intellectual "brilliance" with way too much ego and not enough caution and street smarts. Dangerous combination in a diplomat. He let lesser men easily outwit him once they found his weaknesses. Never could take good advice (Schlessiunger) or adapt quickly to change. Also powermad in the small venial sense.

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/845041.html

Whatever one feels about Nixon, it's kind of scary that an unelected official basically may have (not enough here to convince me it's 100% truth) ran foreign policy behind the Presidents back and elevated a superpower crisis like that.  Kissinger is a smart guy, but not as smart as he thinks he is and too Machiavellian for my tastes.

I'm not convinced that what we see coming out is true history either. The only reason that I buy the Nixon drunk story is that British sources tend to confirm that Nixon hit the borttle around this time. The memo that took the power out of Kissinger's hands on thwe 19th is in the archives so Kissinger can't lie about that . Same about the NSC decision when Schlesinger gave the Defcon order.  Scary stuff.
Last note to get back on subject of post: I will not believe they will trust nuclear weapons on a UAV until they trust them on passenger aircraft.  Even if technically possible, people will want the comfort of a crew in direct control exercising some judgment.  Here's another curve ball for you: Nuke armed UAV takes off out of say, Ellsworth. It develops a fuel leak in flight.  It can either run out of gas and crash, or it can land at a nearby international airport.  In the case of a manned bomber, you have an armed crew that can guard the weapon until security forces arrive or disable it if necessary.  What does the UAV do?
 
It impacts and we send out a hazmat team to assess the damage. With PAL architecture there is a mechanical safe that arms the device once the weapon leaves mechanical restraint along with all the usual electrical safes. Its very possible that a warhead could go off on impact if its dislodged from its mechanical safe, once the electrical arming procedures complete. Nothing is fool or idiot proof. In that case there might even be a chance that a crater appears where  Rapid City used to be.^1
 
Which is probably a good reason why son of NAVAJO, if we ever build it, will have to be a ship or sub based weapon. ICBMs falling on Canada are dangerous enough that we designed last arming sequence to be a descent phase accelerometer induced event in the warhead bus matched to clock delay and final mechanical release on the MINUTEMAN. If PAYUTE^2 fails, we want it over water or aboard the ship that the device malfunctions.
 
 
^1 I know some will say we run the same risk with a maanned bomber.
 
Two rebuttals. The pilot will try to pick his spot and crash as best he can.  The crew will disengage the electrical arming they engaged  and will try to release the weapons in a safed condition over dead ground if they have time. Two minutes is a long time when you have to be heroic. What is a teleoperator going to do?
 
Nothing. His link is down.

 ^2 PAYUTE sounds like a good name for an ICCM
.


Herald
 
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DarthAmerica    LB Reply   6/7/2009 1:33:52 PM
Every one is asserting something. While I can show trends and even official statements such as the one that opened this post to state this is possible you cannot show that it isn't. You and a few others for whatever reason are uncomfortable with the idea of it and that is the basis of your argument. The only very weak case you can make is that early UAVs have crashed a lot. That's really all you have.


-DA 
 
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Herald12345       6/7/2009 2:26:55 PM
What official statements? Read what you posted.; Its an opinion piece.
Every one is asserting something. While I can show trends and even official statements such as the one that opened this post to state this is possible you cannot show that it isn't. You and a few others for whatever reason are uncomfortable with the idea of it and that is the basis of your argument. The only very weak case you can make is that early UAVs have crashed a lot. That's really all you have.







-DA 

As for opinion, I give actual case studies and real world operational factors to consider; not fantasies.

The poster's assertions are meritless and not backed by credible data or operational experience.
 
Herald

 
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JFKY    Nuclear-armed UCAS   6/7/2009 3:04:08 PM
att he local International Airport...geee, the UCAS "phones home" like a GE Locomotive and informs GSC of the problem and then calls for the Air Police to come and guard it...just kiddin'...yet another question for folks like Darth to deal with.
 
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benellim4       6/7/2009 3:23:04 PM
Funny story. A friend of mine was working with a UAV while deployed. He told me of the loss of one UAV that I found funny and considering this thread, scary. The UAV lost comms, so it began to follow its loss of comms procedure as its programming told it to. As it was following procedure, it managed to fly itself into the side of a cliff that wasn't on its charts.
 
Anyone think a manned bomber would have done the same thing?
 
The point is garbage in, garbage out. The UAV wasn't able to think for itself and had limited data and sensor information available to it. While, I'm sure programming will get more sophisticated, the programming is only as good as its programmer and AI is only as good as the "learning" it is exposed to. AI, for quite some time, will not have the ability to think on its feet like an aircrew can. 
 
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VelocityVector       6/7/2009 4:37:27 PM

Pilots fly their aircraft into obstacles that _are_ charted, even into the ground itself, due to poor decision-making and loss of situational awareness all the time.  Bad human programming, I guess.  And while I sincerely appreciate Herald's newest links, none of them exhibits the rigor or quantitative analyses found in the UCAV links that spurred my request.

v^2

 
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Herald12345    More data?   6/7/2009 5:39:10 PM

Pilots fly their aircraft into obstacles that _are_ charted, even into the ground itself, due to poor decision-making and loss of situational awareness all the time.  Bad human programming, I guess.  And while I sincerely appreciate Herald's newest links, none of them exhibits the rigor or quantitative analyses found in the UCAV links that spurred my request.


v^2


 
Better: but more class restricted;
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
More data.
 
Herald

 
 
 
 
 


 
 

 
 
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