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Subject: UNMANNED NUCLEAR BOMBER
DarthAmerica    6/3/2009 1:10:05 PM
Unmanned and nuclear
Is America ready for a UAV bomber?
BY ADAM B. LOWTHER
In the wake of the August 2007 incident in which six air-launched cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads were mistakenly flown from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., and the August 2006 incident ? acknowledged in March 2008 ? that saw top-secret nuclear fuses mistakenly shipped to Taiwan as battery packs for UH-1 Huey helicopters, Defense Secretary Robert Gates fired Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley. Gates also formed a task force to study nuclear weapons management, which led to former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger?s publication of the ?Report of the Secretary of Defense Task Force on Nuclear Weapons Management: The Air Force Nuclear Mission.? The report, along with other recent Pentagon publications, played a role in the creation of Global Strike Command ? a major command dedicated to the nuclear mission.

The mistakes had a positive outcome in that they led to the leadership?s re-examination of the entire nuclear enterprise, which served to stimulate a renaissance of thought on nuclear deterrence and the role of nuclear weapons in national security policy. As part of that renaissance, this article examines the delivery systems upon which the nuclear arsenal relies, with a focus on nuclear-capable bombers.

One issue the Schlesinger report and others like it do not discuss is the possible development of a nuclear-dedicated unmanned combat aerial vehicle (ND-UCAV) as a replacement for nuclear-capable bombers. Yet the Air Force should seriously consider replacing its nuclear-capable bombers with a ND-UCAV based on the X-47B UCAV demonstrator, which the Navy began funding in 2007. While Navy requirements focus on carrier-based ISR operations, the Air Force could take advantage of the more than $800 million previously invested in the Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems (J-UCAS) program and the $635 million currently dedicated to X-47B development and rapidly develop a ND-UVAC capable of penetrating defended air space with a small nuclear weapons payload.

To understand why the ND-UCAV is an attractive option for the future, a brief look at the current condition of the intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) and bomber legs of the nuclear triad illustrates the serious need for modernization. Three points highlight the threat to their continued credibility.

First, today?s entire Air Force bomber fleet of B-52Hs, B1-Bs and B-2s, not just nuclear-capable bombers, is 90 percent smaller than it was at its peak in 1959, when Strategic Air Command (SAC) consisted of 1,366 B-47s and 488 B-52s. Placed within a proper context, the dramatic reduction in the bomber fleet diminishes a very visible and psychologically significant element of a credible deterrent that cannot be achieved with unseen ballistic-missile submarines or ICBMs. Of the current bombers in service, all three airframes are aging and in need of costly repair and upgrades. With the entire fleet of 67 B1-Bs dedicated to conventional operations, as well as a majority of the remaining 62 B-52Hs and 20 B-2s primarily dedicated to conventional operations, the nuclear bomber fleet has dwindled to a record low.

Second, down from a 1969 peak of 1,054, the nation?s 450 remaining ICBMs are in a similar condition and, like the bomber fleet, aging rapidly even as they undergo periodic maintenance and upgrades through a number of life extension programs. Additionally, designed in the mid-1960s and fielded between the late 1960s and early 1970s, the nation?s Minuteman IIIs are housed in underground silos, which are in need of replacement. Silo replacement is cost-prohibitive and may lead to further reductions in ICBM numbers or, as some internal debate suggests, movement of Minuteman IIIs above ground.

Third, with planning for the Next-Generation Bomber (NGB) still in its early stages within the Pentagon, the current fleet of B-52Hs will be approaching 60 before the NGB is expected to enter service in about 2018. The high development costs, underwhelming performance and high maintenance costs of the B1-B are a primary reason the B-52H remained in service after a smaller-than-expected number of B1-Bs were procured. A second attempt at replacing the B-52H led to the B-2, which cost $44 billion to develop and build 21 aircraft, making the B-2 the most expensive aircraft ever built. Even if the NGB can be developed for half the cost of the B-2, each aircraft will cost taxpayers more than $1 billion. In a constrained fiscal budget, procuring an expensive weapons system may prove to be a difficult proposition. Thus, there may be an opportunity to replace an aging bomber fleet with an advanced weapons system that is affordable ? $150 million per aircraft ? and capable of providing a credible air breathing nuclear deterrent. The ND-UCAV can meet the nation?s 21st century nuclear deterrence requirements at an affordable price.

ROADBLOCKS FOR THE ND-UCAV

There are, however, four initial difficulties facing the development of the ND-UCAV. First, and most important, President Barack Obama has articulated his foreign policy agenda, which calls for continued reductions in the nuclear arsenal. Obama?s agenda suggests that expenditures related to the nuclear enterprise will come under increasing scrutiny, making it difficult to modernize the nuclear arsenal and develop advanced delivery systems. This is a particular concern for the nuclear complex because the president is actively seeking to implement Article VI of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), which calls for eventual nuclear disarmament. Thus, for example, designing a modern nuclear warhead that replaces those originally designed and built in the 1960s or designing a bomber, such as an ND-UCAV, to replace those originally designed and built in the 1950s may be viewed as creating a ?new? nuclear capability rather than as a modernization of the existing arsenal. Such a move could be considered a violation of the NPT by some.

Released just days after taking office, the president?s agenda states: ?Obama and [Vice President Joe] Biden will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons, and pursue it. Obama and Biden will always maintain a strong deterrent as long as nuclear weapons exist. But they will take several steps down the long road toward eliminating nuclear weapons. They will stop the development of new nuclear weapons; work with Russia to take U.S. and Russian ballistic missiles off hair trigger alert; seek dramatic reductions in U.S. and Russian stockpiles of nuclear weapons and material; and set a goal to expand the U.S.-Russian ban on intermediate-range missiles so that the agreement is global.?

Reality, however, has shown that lofty ideals rarely come to fruition. Ronald Reagan, an ardent supporter of denuclearization and the elimination of strategic nuclear weapons, discovered upon assuming the presidency that strategic reality not only required the U.S. to maintain a nuclear arsenal, but that the country needed to replace aging nuclear-capable bombers. It was because of the threat posed by the Soviet Union that Reagan restarted the B-1 program and, in 1981, supported development of the B-2. Despite Reagan?s long-held belief that nuclear weapons must be eliminated, reality proved quite different. The same is likely to be the case for the current president.

Second, some suggest that placing nuclear weapons on an unmanned system ? one that does not fly point to point, such as an ICBM ? places undue confidence in an aircraft that does not have the capability to adapt to unexpected circumstances. Detractors argue that a UCAV is limited by its programming, where a pilot would have the ability to adapt to an evolving situation. This has long been a complaint by opponents of unmanned aerial systems, and it will not disappear anytime soon.

Third, similar to the second critique, detractors suggest that there is a fundamental advantage to manned aviation that cannot be replicated in a UCAV. Many aviators, in particular, believe that a ?man in the loop? should remain an integral part of the nuclear mission because of the psychological perception that there is a higher degree of accountability and moral certainty with a manned bomber. These critics do not view a ?man on the loop,? as is the case with all unmanned aerial systems, as sufficient.

Fourth, the difficult circumstances facing the nuclear weapons complex are exacerbated by the perception that terrorism is the gravest threat facing the U.S. While terrorism is the most visible threat facing the nation, neither al-Qaida nor any of its affiliates threatens the sovereignty of the country, which cannot be said of America?s near-peer competitors. It is because of the U.S.? conventional and nuclear capabilities that the nation?s adversaries choose not to fight or resort to terrorism. Developing the ND-UCAV would assist the country in maintaining that dominance, which should be the preferred state of affairs.

While each of these concerns has some merit, they are not insurmountable obstacles. As with the development of every weapons system, there are costs and benefits that must be weighed. In the case of the ND-UCAV, potential benefits exceed potential costs.

MAINTAINING A CREDIBLE NUCLEAR DETERRENT

Contrary to the specific concerns of potential detractors, there are several broader reasons why the ND-UCAV could prove a valuable asset as the nation faces an ever-changing strategic environment. The implications of the ND-UCAV go well beyond the development of an unmanned weapons system. Rather than seeking to eliminate nuclear weapons, the development and procurement of a safer and more reliable arsenal is a step in the right direction. In addition to developing the ND-UCAV, development of the Reliable Replacement Warhead could address some of the safety concerns UCAV detractors voice when suggesting that a UCAV crash could allow a nuclear weapon to fall into the hands of an adversary ? such as al-Qaida.

According to the Air Force White Paper on Long Range Strike (1999), the U.S. was in peril of losing its ability to penetrate defended airspace with long-range strike aircraft more than a decade ago. Developments in anti-aircraft capabilities since the study was produced exacerbate this weakness in American long-range strike capabilities while countries such as China, Russia and Iran focused their weapons development efforts on denying the U.S. access to their airspace because it is more cost-effective than challenging the U.S. in the air. Of the current bomber fleet, only the 20 B-2s in service can penetrate modern anti-aircraft defenses. This limited ability to penetrate advanced air defenses diminishes the psychological impact of, for example, moving nuclear capable bombers forward during a crisis. Fielding a bomber, such as the ND-UCAV, with improved penetration capabilities could heighten the perceived threat and lead to an adversary backing down from a threatening posture.

The Air Force has touted the Next Generation Bomber as an intermediate solution to current deficiencies, but the NGB is, without question, not the Air Force?s preferred long-range strike solution. There is a clear view among some bomber proponents that the hypersonic bomber is the solution to current long-range strike deficiencies, if the technology is given the time needed to mature. The desire for a hypersonic bomber has created a reluctance among Air Force leaders to invest precious resources in a bomber that is perceived as a quick fix, as is the case with the NGB.

These difficulties present a substantial obstacle for the Air Force. Without dramatic improvements in the Air Force?s ability to penetrate defended airspace, the bomber leg of the nuclear triad will decline in credibility, which is not easily re-established. Substantial investments in the triad need to be made if the U.S. intends to maintain a credible nuclear deterrence in the years ahead. The nation?s adversaries are paying careful attention to the ongoing debate within this country. The Defense Science Board, the National Nuclear Security Administration, the Air Force, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Strategic Command commander Gen. Kevin Chilton are, on the one hand, arguing for nuclear modernization. On the other hand, the Arms Control Association, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Physical Society, the Center for Strategic and International Studies and others are calling for the U.S. to move toward nuclear disarmament. The ND-UCAV is a cost-effective way to maintain credibility without expanding capability.

In recent years, the Air Force has not persuasively articulated an acquisitions strategy that satisfies the need for new fighters and a new bomber. Thus, the Senate and House Armed Services Committees have proven reluctant to support Air Force funding requests for all of these programs, which may make the procurement of an ND-UCAV more difficult despite the benefits of such an acquisition.

The news is not all bad, however. As previously noted, replacing aging bombers with the ND-UCAV instead of the Next Generation Bomber will reduce acquisition costs from about $1 billion to $150 million per aircraft while meeting the need for a nuclear long-range strike capability. With more than five years and $1.4 billion already invested in the J-UCAS and N-UCAV programs, the ND-UCAV should be capable of restoring credibility to the bomber leg of the nuclear mission long before the 2018 timeframe planned for the NGB.

To highlight the benefits of the ND-UCAV:

? The ND-UCAV can provide the Air Force with an aircraft capable of delivering two B-61 thermonuclear gravity bombs at a cost well below the $1 billion of the 2018 bomber.

? The ND-UCAV can be a stealth aircraft capable of penetrating defended airspace.

? The ND-UCAV is less than half the size of the B-52H and requires a much shorter runway for takeoff and landing, allowing for greater dispersal and force realignment. Thus, in a crisis situation, the ND-UCAV can be moved forward ? to a greater number of locations ? in order to demonstrate American resolve.

? Unlike the ICBM, the ND-UCAV is recallable before weapons release.

? The ND-UCAV can change course should a target be mobile. It can also loiter should the position of a mobile target be lost or compromised.

? The ND-UCAV can be flown into contaminated areas where a human pilot might succumb to high levels of radiation.

There can be little doubt that the development of the ND-UCAV deserves further attention. As UAS technology continues to mature, there will be fewer and fewer technical obstacles that stand in the way of expanding the role of the UAS in warfare. If the Air Force embraces change that by many accounts is inevitable, a renaissance of aviation may be in store. If, however, it does not, Congress, a constrained fiscal environment and the demands of the American people may once again place the Air Force in a difficult position. Military aviators have a long tradition of heroism that is noteworthy. And, it should not be forgotten that while the ND-UCAV will remove the aviator from the pit, it does not remove the airman from the fight. Any UAS is only as capable as its designers. Like manned bombers, its limits are man-made. Keeping its strengths and weaknesses in perspective may give the ND-UCAV the fighting chance it deserves.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


-DA
 
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Herald12345    Stand corrected.   6/6/2009 7:32:13 AM

Herald,


If you are going to call people idiots, you may want to get your facts right. SAC was disbanded under the Bush I administration in 1992, not by Clinton.  It was part of Gen McPeak's sweeping reorg in response to the end of the Cold War, big drawdowns, and the expeditionary combat experience that blurred the line between tactical and strategic forces in a conventional war.  I'm not a McPeak fan, but if you want to throw political spears he can be held against both side - appointed by Bush I, backed Dole's presidential run in '96 and GWB in '00, but also served under Clinton, backed Dean and then Kerry, and was Obama's military advisor and committee co-chairman.


BTW, the Yom Kippur War was 1973, not 1972.  This was in the middle of the Watergate scandal and there are some claims that Nixon wasn't involved with the DEFCON decison at all, rather the NSC decided and issued statements in his name.


Opinion:
 
1 June 1992, was the date that idiiocy occured. Half a year. 1973 Arab Israel1 war. One year off, again, wrong on fact again. You backed DEAN? .Get a mental health checkup. My memory may require I look at possible onset of Alzheimers, but supporting Dean indicates McPeak has galloping insanity. As for Obama, current data track indicates he made a third hige error in judgement.. . 
 
Ascerbic comment::
 
The Russians ran a bluff in 1973. Factpod claimed: Nixon was drunk.on the 11 October when the British PM Ed Heath tried to talk to him about the crisis, sole source climing being Kissinger, which indicates to me that that  maniac, Kissinger, was running around mismanaging US foreign policy during the crisis solely by his own arrogant accounts. By the 23, that double dealing double crosser had convinced himself and the panicked Russians (Schlessinger pushed for the Defcon 3 over K's objection and Nixon agreed) to put through that cease fire. The thought of Kissinger trying to play general and decide when to declare "victory" should have chilled the blood of any sane man. That miscalculating egomaniac never could read a crisis right oir negotiate a viable agreement. That is why I suggest strongly that  it was actually Nixoin who sobered up and dealt with Brezhnev as he explicitly told Kissinger he would do in a memorandum of instruction he sent to that hubris driven Secretary of State on the 19th October.
 
Now as to the Clinton administration being packed full of idiots..........
 
 
Herald
.   
 
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    Herald,   6/6/2009 8:46:28 AM
read for comprehension...MCPEAK backed Dean and then Kerry...we have no idea who Breaka backed.....
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Take own advice, JRKY.   6/6/2009 9:13:07 AM

read for comprehension...MCPEAK backed Dean and then Kerry...we have no idea who Breaka backed.....
 
Well then.....Breaka, who did YOU support? Problem solved.   
 
Brainfart does not excuse me, though many's the time you've done the same when you misquoted me.
 
Herald
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/6/2009 12:39:15 PM

Comm's fails...Having read Robert's Ridge all I can say is that in a very permissive electronic environment, the Taliban functionally being in the Stone Age, satellite communication failed SEVERAL times...due to overloaded circuits or due to electronic jamming being conducted by the Allied Forces (the book makes no conclusions).

So in Afghanistan, in the face of NO electronic opposition or interference units lost the ability to communicate...at the most inopportune times.  All I can say is that you have far more faith in electronic communications, under extreme pressure, than I do.

 
JFKY,

I do have faith with it because it's something I've worked with and on everyday. That doesn't mean to suggest that your concerns are no valid. Just that as an engineer we can design redundancies and create ways to mitigate the chances of failure. That's why I wrote to GF that if we wanted, we could deploy a Unmanned Nuclear Bomber this year with existing technologies. It would be quick and crude but it could be done if we absolutely wanted it. Give 5-9 years though and the technologies would be mature enough to be competitive with manned platforms and certainly exceed the performance. Again that doesn't mean that institutional resistance wouldn't still be an obstacle.

With regard to failure. Again, remember, even the B-2 and Raptor go down. And like the electronic conditions over Afghanistan, it doesn't have to be due to enemy activity. No one can legitimately say there is no chance of failure. But I can say that with proper test and development it is possible to make the system as reliable as manned aircraft. It just takes time. A good program to look at would be Global Hawk. It's a prototype that was rushed to war due to urgent needs. It has the AI capability to deal with loss of coms and in 30,000 plus hours of flight has had very few losses considering that it was a prototype, maintenance and operator proficiency wasn't mature ect. 

-DA 

 
-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/6/2009 12:46:50 PM

Sure we could hang nukes off a UCAS. That doesn't mean we would have the positive control required of a nuclear weapon.

Spin. I mentioned that if we rushed something it would be crude but still doable. Also, our control of the nuclear payload would be no less secure than a nuclear tipped CM. Why a nuke on a CM isn't even an issue on a one way trip but somehow it you put it one a platform that can be recalled all the way up to the release point is the million dollar question. Let me break that down.

AGM-89B is fired, on the way to the target, it can crash, be intercepted, fail to explode and cannot be reused or recalled.

ND-UCAS takes off and has all of the above characteristics of a CM. Additionally, it can be recalled. It can loiter on station until needed and if designed to do so, can even fight back in the EW and physical domain.

Its a gain.

-DA 

-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/6/2009 12:58:34 PM

Well, one person here thinks an ALCM with a range of 1500miles fired from a manned bomber on a one way mission is somehow equivalent to a nuclear armed UCAS. We didn't launch ALCMs and SRAMs and other nuclear armed cruise missiles except to test them. We don't launch a cruise missile as a show of force or in a response to an increase in DEFCON. We weren't worried about recalling a cruise missile that is what its bomber launch platform was for. 


STRAWMAN

 

 A nuclear armed UCAS would have to be launched more often and fly greater distances than a cruise missile. If we lost an ALCM over uncontrolled territory that would have been the least of our worries. More important would have been the nuclear weapons exploding all across the planet. If we have a UCAS lost, which is more likely to happen than with a manned bomber then we have a major incident like that over Georgia or the Med.
 
 
All incorrect. A UCAS would not need the training flight hours manned platforms do. A UCAS would be able to loiter for days or weeks in the timeframe we are discussion. And it is not more likely that to have losses than a manned platform. That's a myth.

 

One person here thinks that dropping two A-bombs on a country that had none, bombs that burst at 1850ft is the same thing as nuclear war. One person here thinks that two bombs, dropped from B-29s, which had little sensor ability some 64 years ago thinks that gave us "tons of data."

LOL more spin. Unless you think WW II wasn't a war and you also think the bombs were not nuclear than you are simply no longer credible now as you are overtly denying the truth. Also, if you think we don't have "tons of data" on nuclear weapons effects then that's on you. I know and have proved we do. I wasn't referring to B-29's which is another strawman. Mutual exchange of weapons isn't necessary to have a nuclear war. If I nuke you, and the blow forces your surrender or destruction, and you can't fight back after, it's still a nuke war Benellim4. It only takes one gun to have a gunfight.

-DA
 


 
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Herald12345    More blah blah fromn a novice.   6/6/2009 3:44:43 PM
Howe do you assert positive control over the weapon?
 
I know this is going to be a good load of brown steaming goo. because it goes to the heart of telemetry and the design of an artilect. These are subjects about which the poster is clueless. 

So how do you assert positive control over the nuclear weapon?
 
 
Hint: Electronic hive minds are NOT HUMAN. 
 
Applicability: The stupid robot is out to kill a target class. What class? What are the rejectors? What is the default recall? (Remember you will have a live BOMB coming back with your UAS upon RTB default with no sure way to disarm except via remote. Are you SURE?)
 
The better question should be, given that reality of just how things actually work is; "are you insane?"
 
Herald

 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       6/6/2009 5:11:43 PM

Howe do you assert positive control over the weapon?

I know this is going to be a good load of brown steaming goo. because it goes to the heart of telemetry and the design of an artilect. These are subjects about which the poster is clueless. 


So how do you assert positive control over the nuclear weapon?



Hint: Electronic hive minds are NOT HUMAN. 

Applicability: The stupid robot is out to kill a target class. What class? What are the rejectors? What is the default recall? (Remember you will have a live BOMB coming back with your UAS upon RTB default with no sure way to disarm except via remote. Are you SURE?)

The better question should be, given that reality of just how things actually work is; "are you insane?" 
Herald


 
 

Again, more null content from you. Oh, and I'm not the one with an insanity. What's insane is that you continue to  troll threads trying to start flamewars and arguments. Get back to me when you figure out what SAC is and it's history BEFORE you want to discuss nuclear weapons. Thus far you are the only "poster" do demonstrate cluelessness...

breaka    Disbanding SAC    6/6/2009 3:31:33 AM

Herald,

If you are going to call people idiots, you may want to get your facts right. SAC was disbanded under the Bush I administration in 1992, not by Clinton.  It was part of Gen McPeak's sweeping reorg in response to the end of the Cold War, big drawdowns, and the expeditionary combat experience that blurred the line between tactical and strategic forces in a conventional war.  I'm not a McPeak fan, but if you want to throw political spears he can be held against both side - appointed by Bush I, backed Dole's presidential run in '96 and GWB in '00, but also served under Clinton, backed Dean and then Kerry, and was Obama's military advisor and committe co-chairman.

BTW, the Yom Kippur War was 1973, not 1972.  This was in the middle of the Watergate scandal and there are some claims that Nixon wasn't involved with the DEFCON decison at all, rather the NSC decided and issued statements in his name.

 
We can add that the other list of things you were wrong about such as when you said Missiles for Merchants was the better option compared to firearms right before PMC used Glock 17 and Navies choose Sniper Weapons and Capture with Small Arms...lol 


-DA 

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Didn't understand the paper at all did you, poster?    6/6/2009 5:33:00 PM




Howe do you assert positive control over the weapon?



I know this is going to be a good load of brown steaming goo. because it goes to the heart of telemetry and the design of an artilect. These are subjects about which the poster is clueless. 






So how do you assert positive control over the nuclear weapon?









Hint: Electronic hive minds are NOT HUMAN. 




Applicability: The stupid robot is out to kill a target class. What class? What are the rejectors? What is the default recall? (Remember you will have a live BOMB coming back with your UAS upon RTB default with no sure way to disarm except via remote. Are you SURE?)




The better question should be, given that reality of just how things actually work is; "are you insane?" 

Herald






 

 



Again, more null content from you. Oh, and I'm not the one with an insanity. What's insane is that you continue to  troll threads trying to start flamewars and arguments. Get back to me when you figure out what SAC is and it's history BEFORE you want to discuss nuclear weapons. Thus far you are the only "poster" do demonstrate cluelessness...















breaka    Disbanding SAC    6/6/2009 3:31:33 AM


Herald,


If you are going to call people idiots, you may want to get your facts right. SAC was disbanded under the Bush I administration in 1992, not by Clinton.  It was part of Gen McPeak's sweeping reorg in response to the end of the Cold War, big drawdowns, and the expeditionary combat experience that blurred the line between tactical and strategic forces in a conventional war.  I'm not a McPeak fan, but if you want to throw political spears he can be held against both side - appointed by Bush I, backed Dole's presidential run in '96 and GWB in '00, but also served under Clinton, backed Dean and then Kerry, and was Obama's military advisor and committe co-chairman.


BTW, the Yom Kippur War was 1973, not 1972.  This was in the middle of the Watergate scandal and there are some claims that Nixon wasn't involved with the DEFCON decison at all, rather the NSC decided and issued statements in his name.




 

We can add that the other list of things you were wrong about such as when you said Missiles for Merchants was the better option compared to firearms right before PMC used Glock 17 and Navies choose Sniper Weapons and Capture with Small Arms...lol 







-DA 





Getting a date wrong is not as DEADLY as not understanding process and outcome. 
 
Too bad that you don't even know that difference between nitpicks and the important stuff.

Criticism levied against the person is therefore invalid. Address the point and do not deviate from the topic.; ad hominem is no substitute for subject matter expertise. As in this case you have demonstrated no understanding at all.
 
Answer the question. "How do you keep positive control over the weapon?"
 
If you don't know the answer then quit asserting that you do know the answer.
 
Its obvious here that just like in other discussions where you assert, and that you pretend to know the answer but that  you have no credible answer to offer because you actually don't know squat on topic.
 
Its a simple demonstrable explanation, isn't it?  You stake out a "posiution" and then you are exposed to valid criticism of it. Then you come out with the ad-hominems, straw men, and the bullying-the usual bluster you use to hide that fact from view that you don't know about what you discuss.
 
How do you mauntain positive weapon control again?

Answer that quesation for a robot and you've substantially made your case. But you can't, because unlike you I do know what you have to do. I even told you.  You missed it completely.
 
And some wonder why I get irritated.
 
Herald

   
 

 
 
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VelocityVector    Request for Info   6/6/2009 5:51:38 PM

Thank you for posting that link, Herald, this is a valuable contribution to the thread.  What I also will appreciate is a comparable analysis that examines how performance by human beings, given the same assumptions, would address the scenarios under consideration, with analyses focused on time to decision.  It very well may be the case that machine logic will yield better practical results than human beings can, given what is presented in the paper.  Can you steer me please?

v^2

 
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DarthAmerica       6/6/2009 6:45:57 PM

How do you mauntain positive weapon control again?

Answer that quesation for a robot and you've substantially made your case. But you can't, because unlike you I do know what you have to do. I even told you.  You missed it completely. 

And some wonder why I get irritated.

Herald



No, you didn't tell me. I know. There are many ways to safeguard the weapons. However, so long as you  post vitriol and fail to control your irritation, I'm not going to waste time dealing with your post.  You will just have to come to your own conclusions about what I know or don't know and I'm fine to let you do just that.

A more relevant response to the trivia of how to maintain positive control would be to ask how humans do it...

The Air Force continued handing out disciplinary actions in response to the six nuclear warheads mistakenly flown on a B-52 Stratofortress bomber from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., on Aug. 30. The squadron commander in charge of Minot?s munitions crews was relieved of all duties pending the investigation.

 

It seems that humans can cause manned platforms to make mistakes too. Hmm. AGM-129, how do we maintain positive control of those? Case closed. Being unmanned has nothing to do with it. It's about designing sufficient safety measures into the system and properly following them. The only difference between this and what Herald asked is that the humans are sitting a ~20ft away in a cockpit from weapons they still can't physically manipulate in flight and that have to be communicated with via data bus. In essence they have to TRUST that when the data displayed says that the weapons are safed, that it is true.

-DA 
 

   


 





 

 
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gf0012-aust       6/6/2009 7:01:27 PM

What I also will appreciate is a comparable analysis that examines how performance by human beings, given the same assumptions, would address the scenarios under consideration, with analyses focused on time to decision.  

Positive control, by rote means direct intervention in the process/prosecution loop.  NONE of the claims made by vendors to date shows any capability to exerxise positive control because the entire raft of solutions demonstrated to a number of countries in the field have failed.  ie, the oft claimed redundancy of systems will fail.

The AI is not sophisticated enough for any combat ready event to demonstrate positive control capability.  Hence why the chinese would have a fondness for US project development techniques as they've been getting free technology everytime a UAV goes into a "broken arrow" equivalent flight profile.

Every UAV that carries a weapon at this point in time reflects failsafe conditions.  Thats why the US is still losing UAV's and their mission packs/weapons sets in afghanistan and this is in benight electronic emission space.  Its a completely electronically uncontested, unmolested  battlespace.

getting long range recovery teams, special forces, or offering rewards for asset recovery is not evidence of platform/systems maturity.  need is over-riding capability boundaries.
 
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DarthAmerica    gf0012 reply   6/6/2009 7:18:37 PM
GF,

Men do it too. It's called pilot error. Or even defection where entire aircraft have been hand delivered.  Not only that but you are making invalid comparisons by stating the GWOT examples. None of those aircraft are designed with the kinds of redundancies and safeguards that would go into a nuclear capable delivery system. Not only that, a lot of the UAV's that have been lost were rushed into the field as prototypes with accompanying teams of contractors from the manufacturers to keep them running. I know from direct contact with these people why the early history is what it is. If you notice, reliability has been dramatically improving right along with flight hours. There is no reason why positive control would be an issue. I also cannot stress enough, AI is more than capable of dealing with the contingencies.

-DA 
 
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gf0012-aust       6/6/2009 8:02:31 PM

GF,

Men do it too. It's called pilot error. Or even defection where entire aircraft have been hand delivered.  Not only that but you are making invalid comparisons by stating the GWOT examples. None of those aircraft are designed with the kinds of redundancies and safeguards that would go into a nuclear capable delivery system. Not only that, a lot of the UAV's that have been lost were rushed into the field as prototypes with accompanying teams of contractors from the manufacturers to keep them running. I know from direct contact with these people why the early history is what it is. If you notice, reliability has been dramatically improving right along with flight hours. There is no reason why positive control would be an issue. I also cannot stress enough, AI is more than capable of dealing with the contingencies.
No, Im reinforcing the last 2 years,  I haven't touched the GW experience in UAS because its a prev UAV generation.
I'm talking here and now - and within the last 3 months as a recent example.

We know exactly what problems are happening because we deal with it in real everyday operational terms.  We know the grief that the US is going through because we know who's on first.   
 
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DarthAmerica       6/6/2009 8:38:45 PM


GF,

Men do it too. It's called pilot error. Or even defection where entire aircraft have been hand delivered.  Not only that but you are making invalid comparisons by stating the GWOT examples. None of those aircraft are designed with the kinds of redundancies and safeguards that would go into a nuclear capable delivery system. Not only that, a lot of the UAV's that have been lost were rushed into the field as prototypes with accompanying teams of contractors from the manufacturers to keep them running. I know from direct contact with these people why the early history is what it is. If you notice, reliability has been dramatically improving right along with flight hours. There is no reason why positive control would be an issue. I also cannot stress enough, AI is more than capable of dealing with the contingencies.

No, Im reinforcing the last 2 years,  I haven't touched the GW experience in UAS because its a prev UAV generation.

I'm talking here and now - and within the last 3 months as a recent example.

We know exactly what problems are happening because we deal with it in real everyday operational terms.  We know the grief that the US is going through because we know who's on first.   

The GWOT is still in progress(WELL DEPENDING ON WHAT THEY CALL IT NOW...LOL).  And I'm also talking current systems. I'm not sure we actually disagree. I'm saying that yes, we could slap something together now if we wanted to. It would be crude, but it would work(capable of successful payload delivery/handling) if we are willing to accept the limitations and risk. I'm also saying that institutional resistance to the idea of a nuclear UAV would probably be a problem though. Fast forward 5 to 9 years and assume a program started to build the nuclear UCAV was initiated today. It would be very much within the realm of possible to have a technologically mature platform capable of doing this duty at least as reliably as a manned platform in any environment.

-DA 
 
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