The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 24, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: UNMANNED NUCLEAR BOMBER
DarthAmerica    6/3/2009 1:10:05 PM
Unmanned and nuclear
Is America ready for a UAV bomber?
BY ADAM B. LOWTHER
In the wake of the August 2007 incident in which six air-launched cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads were mistakenly flown from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., and the August 2006 incident ? acknowledged in March 2008 ? that saw top-secret nuclear fuses mistakenly shipped to Taiwan as battery packs for UH-1 Huey helicopters, Defense Secretary Robert Gates fired Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley. Gates also formed a task force to study nuclear weapons management, which led to former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger?s publication of the ?Report of the Secretary of Defense Task Force on Nuclear Weapons Management: The Air Force Nuclear Mission.? The report, along with other recent Pentagon publications, played a role in the creation of Global Strike Command ? a major command dedicated to the nuclear mission.

The mistakes had a positive outcome in that they led to the leadership?s re-examination of the entire nuclear enterprise, which served to stimulate a renaissance of thought on nuclear deterrence and the role of nuclear weapons in national security policy. As part of that renaissance, this article examines the delivery systems upon which the nuclear arsenal relies, with a focus on nuclear-capable bombers.

One issue the Schlesinger report and others like it do not discuss is the possible development of a nuclear-dedicated unmanned combat aerial vehicle (ND-UCAV) as a replacement for nuclear-capable bombers. Yet the Air Force should seriously consider replacing its nuclear-capable bombers with a ND-UCAV based on the X-47B UCAV demonstrator, which the Navy began funding in 2007. While Navy requirements focus on carrier-based ISR operations, the Air Force could take advantage of the more than $800 million previously invested in the Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems (J-UCAS) program and the $635 million currently dedicated to X-47B development and rapidly develop a ND-UVAC capable of penetrating defended air space with a small nuclear weapons payload.

To understand why the ND-UCAV is an attractive option for the future, a brief look at the current condition of the intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) and bomber legs of the nuclear triad illustrates the serious need for modernization. Three points highlight the threat to their continued credibility.

First, today?s entire Air Force bomber fleet of B-52Hs, B1-Bs and B-2s, not just nuclear-capable bombers, is 90 percent smaller than it was at its peak in 1959, when Strategic Air Command (SAC) consisted of 1,366 B-47s and 488 B-52s. Placed within a proper context, the dramatic reduction in the bomber fleet diminishes a very visible and psychologically significant element of a credible deterrent that cannot be achieved with unseen ballistic-missile submarines or ICBMs. Of the current bombers in service, all three airframes are aging and in need of costly repair and upgrades. With the entire fleet of 67 B1-Bs dedicated to conventional operations, as well as a majority of the remaining 62 B-52Hs and 20 B-2s primarily dedicated to conventional operations, the nuclear bomber fleet has dwindled to a record low.

Second, down from a 1969 peak of 1,054, the nation?s 450 remaining ICBMs are in a similar condition and, like the bomber fleet, aging rapidly even as they undergo periodic maintenance and upgrades through a number of life extension programs. Additionally, designed in the mid-1960s and fielded between the late 1960s and early 1970s, the nation?s Minuteman IIIs are housed in underground silos, which are in need of replacement. Silo replacement is cost-prohibitive and may lead to further reductions in ICBM numbers or, as some internal debate suggests, movement of Minuteman IIIs above ground.

Third, with planning for the Next-Generation Bomber (NGB) still in its early stages within the Pentagon, the current fleet of B-52Hs will be approaching 60 before the NGB is expected to enter service in about 2018. The high development costs, underwhelming performance and high maintenance costs of the B1-B are a primary reason the B-52H remained in service after a smaller-than-expected number of B1-Bs were procured. A second attempt at replacing the B-52H led to the B-2, which cost $44 billion to develop and build 21 aircraft, making the B-2 the most expensive aircraft ever built. Even if the NGB can be developed for half the cost of the B-2, each aircraft will cost taxpayers more than $1 billion. In a constrained fiscal budget, procuring an expensive weapons system may prove to be a difficult proposition. Thus, there may be an opportunity to replace an aging bomber fleet with an advanced weapons system that is affordable ? $150 million per aircraft ? and capable of providing a credible air breathing nuclear deterrent. The ND-UCAV can meet the nation?s 21st century nuclear deterrence requirements at an affordable price.

ROADBLOCKS FOR THE ND-UCAV

There are, however, four initial difficulties facing the development of the ND-UCAV. First, and most important, President Barack Obama has articulated his foreign policy agenda, which calls for continued reductions in the nuclear arsenal. Obama?s agenda suggests that expenditures related to the nuclear enterprise will come under increasing scrutiny, making it difficult to modernize the nuclear arsenal and develop advanced delivery systems. This is a particular concern for the nuclear complex because the president is actively seeking to implement Article VI of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), which calls for eventual nuclear disarmament. Thus, for example, designing a modern nuclear warhead that replaces those originally designed and built in the 1960s or designing a bomber, such as an ND-UCAV, to replace those originally designed and built in the 1950s may be viewed as creating a ?new? nuclear capability rather than as a modernization of the existing arsenal. Such a move could be considered a violation of the NPT by some.

Released just days after taking office, the president?s agenda states: ?Obama and [Vice President Joe] Biden will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons, and pursue it. Obama and Biden will always maintain a strong deterrent as long as nuclear weapons exist. But they will take several steps down the long road toward eliminating nuclear weapons. They will stop the development of new nuclear weapons; work with Russia to take U.S. and Russian ballistic missiles off hair trigger alert; seek dramatic reductions in U.S. and Russian stockpiles of nuclear weapons and material; and set a goal to expand the U.S.-Russian ban on intermediate-range missiles so that the agreement is global.?

Reality, however, has shown that lofty ideals rarely come to fruition. Ronald Reagan, an ardent supporter of denuclearization and the elimination of strategic nuclear weapons, discovered upon assuming the presidency that strategic reality not only required the U.S. to maintain a nuclear arsenal, but that the country needed to replace aging nuclear-capable bombers. It was because of the threat posed by the Soviet Union that Reagan restarted the B-1 program and, in 1981, supported development of the B-2. Despite Reagan?s long-held belief that nuclear weapons must be eliminated, reality proved quite different. The same is likely to be the case for the current president.

Second, some suggest that placing nuclear weapons on an unmanned system ? one that does not fly point to point, such as an ICBM ? places undue confidence in an aircraft that does not have the capability to adapt to unexpected circumstances. Detractors argue that a UCAV is limited by its programming, where a pilot would have the ability to adapt to an evolving situation. This has long been a complaint by opponents of unmanned aerial systems, and it will not disappear anytime soon.

Third, similar to the second critique, detractors suggest that there is a fundamental advantage to manned aviation that cannot be replicated in a UCAV. Many aviators, in particular, believe that a ?man in the loop? should remain an integral part of the nuclear mission because of the psychological perception that there is a higher degree of accountability and moral certainty with a manned bomber. These critics do not view a ?man on the loop,? as is the case with all unmanned aerial systems, as sufficient.

Fourth, the difficult circumstances facing the nuclear weapons complex are exacerbated by the perception that terrorism is the gravest threat facing the U.S. While terrorism is the most visible threat facing the nation, neither al-Qaida nor any of its affiliates threatens the sovereignty of the country, which cannot be said of America?s near-peer competitors. It is because of the U.S.? conventional and nuclear capabilities that the nation?s adversaries choose not to fight or resort to terrorism. Developing the ND-UCAV would assist the country in maintaining that dominance, which should be the preferred state of affairs.

While each of these concerns has some merit, they are not insurmountable obstacles. As with the development of every weapons system, there are costs and benefits that must be weighed. In the case of the ND-UCAV, potential benefits exceed potential costs.

MAINTAINING A CREDIBLE NUCLEAR DETERRENT

Contrary to the specific concerns of potential detractors, there are several broader reasons why the ND-UCAV could prove a valuable asset as the nation faces an ever-changing strategic environment. The implications of the ND-UCAV go well beyond the development of an unmanned weapons system. Rather than seeking to eliminate nuclear weapons, the development and procurement of a safer and more reliable arsenal is a step in the right direction. In addition to developing the ND-UCAV, development of the Reliable Replacement Warhead could address some of the safety concerns UCAV detractors voice when suggesting that a UCAV crash could allow a nuclear weapon to fall into the hands of an adversary ? such as al-Qaida.

According to the Air Force White Paper on Long Range Strike (1999), the U.S. was in peril of losing its ability to penetrate defended airspace with long-range strike aircraft more than a decade ago. Developments in anti-aircraft capabilities since the study was produced exacerbate this weakness in American long-range strike capabilities while countries such as China, Russia and Iran focused their weapons development efforts on denying the U.S. access to their airspace because it is more cost-effective than challenging the U.S. in the air. Of the current bomber fleet, only the 20 B-2s in service can penetrate modern anti-aircraft defenses. This limited ability to penetrate advanced air defenses diminishes the psychological impact of, for example, moving nuclear capable bombers forward during a crisis. Fielding a bomber, such as the ND-UCAV, with improved penetration capabilities could heighten the perceived threat and lead to an adversary backing down from a threatening posture.

The Air Force has touted the Next Generation Bomber as an intermediate solution to current deficiencies, but the NGB is, without question, not the Air Force?s preferred long-range strike solution. There is a clear view among some bomber proponents that the hypersonic bomber is the solution to current long-range strike deficiencies, if the technology is given the time needed to mature. The desire for a hypersonic bomber has created a reluctance among Air Force leaders to invest precious resources in a bomber that is perceived as a quick fix, as is the case with the NGB.

These difficulties present a substantial obstacle for the Air Force. Without dramatic improvements in the Air Force?s ability to penetrate defended airspace, the bomber leg of the nuclear triad will decline in credibility, which is not easily re-established. Substantial investments in the triad need to be made if the U.S. intends to maintain a credible nuclear deterrence in the years ahead. The nation?s adversaries are paying careful attention to the ongoing debate within this country. The Defense Science Board, the National Nuclear Security Administration, the Air Force, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Strategic Command commander Gen. Kevin Chilton are, on the one hand, arguing for nuclear modernization. On the other hand, the Arms Control Association, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Physical Society, the Center for Strategic and International Studies and others are calling for the U.S. to move toward nuclear disarmament. The ND-UCAV is a cost-effective way to maintain credibility without expanding capability.

In recent years, the Air Force has not persuasively articulated an acquisitions strategy that satisfies the need for new fighters and a new bomber. Thus, the Senate and House Armed Services Committees have proven reluctant to support Air Force funding requests for all of these programs, which may make the procurement of an ND-UCAV more difficult despite the benefits of such an acquisition.

The news is not all bad, however. As previously noted, replacing aging bombers with the ND-UCAV instead of the Next Generation Bomber will reduce acquisition costs from about $1 billion to $150 million per aircraft while meeting the need for a nuclear long-range strike capability. With more than five years and $1.4 billion already invested in the J-UCAS and N-UCAV programs, the ND-UCAV should be capable of restoring credibility to the bomber leg of the nuclear mission long before the 2018 timeframe planned for the NGB.

To highlight the benefits of the ND-UCAV:

? The ND-UCAV can provide the Air Force with an aircraft capable of delivering two B-61 thermonuclear gravity bombs at a cost well below the $1 billion of the 2018 bomber.

? The ND-UCAV can be a stealth aircraft capable of penetrating defended airspace.

? The ND-UCAV is less than half the size of the B-52H and requires a much shorter runway for takeoff and landing, allowing for greater dispersal and force realignment. Thus, in a crisis situation, the ND-UCAV can be moved forward ? to a greater number of locations ? in order to demonstrate American resolve.

? Unlike the ICBM, the ND-UCAV is recallable before weapons release.

? The ND-UCAV can change course should a target be mobile. It can also loiter should the position of a mobile target be lost or compromised.

? The ND-UCAV can be flown into contaminated areas where a human pilot might succumb to high levels of radiation.

There can be little doubt that the development of the ND-UCAV deserves further attention. As UAS technology continues to mature, there will be fewer and fewer technical obstacles that stand in the way of expanding the role of the UAS in warfare. If the Air Force embraces change that by many accounts is inevitable, a renaissance of aviation may be in store. If, however, it does not, Congress, a constrained fiscal environment and the demands of the American people may once again place the Air Force in a difficult position. Military aviators have a long tradition of heroism that is noteworthy. And, it should not be forgotten that while the ND-UCAV will remove the aviator from the pit, it does not remove the airman from the fight. Any UAS is only as capable as its designers. Like manned bombers, its limits are man-made. Keeping its strengths and weaknesses in perspective may give the ND-UCAV the fighting chance it deserves.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


-DA
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6   NEXT
DarthAmerica    JFKY reply   6/4/2009 11:07:52 AM

Noty just the uplink/downlink...but the entire system...from the control room, to the satellite control room, to the satellite itself.

I did discuss the satellites. The critical nodes and spacecraft are all hardened against these effects and have been since the Cold War. That's why their are huge price differences in nuclear capable systems and infrastructure to secure against the threat of EMP. Read about the NCCS. The C2 facilities/systems are double and triple redundant as are the platforms themselves which represent only one part of a triad so that the deterrent is not dependent on one specific delivery system. With regard to physical security is it protected as well. This does not increase vulnerability. It would add to our capability. I can expand on the circumstances if necessary. This is mature deployable technology by next decade.

 
-DA
 
Quote    Reply

LB    The Cold War is Over   6/4/2009 5:41:20 PM
Given the end of the Cold War it might be worth examining exactly how important the Triad is.  It might have been USAF doctrine to use ICBM strikes to open the way for bombers during GTNW but the notion there would be any base to return to in order to drop more nukes the next day after BDA is rather incredible given the numbers of warheads we're talking about during the Cold War.
 
It's a matter of opinion that any potential adversary we seek to deter that would not be so deterred by our ICBMs and SLBMs would however be deterred by his perception of our strategic bomber force as viable or not.
 
Frankly developing a new nuclear bomber requires a new generation of nuclear cruise missiles and bombs.  It's not at all clear given trends in numbers of nuclear weapons that we would have very many of these given a minimum number of missile warheads.
 
It's rather surprising that someone who thinks we do not need more F-22s because they are so expensive wants to fund a new nuclear penetrating bomber given current existing redundant capability that is superior do the manned bomber in most respects.  There is no platform nearly as competitive as the F-22, much less superior, and yet for air superiority we should rely on less capable platforms while for nuclear war we suddenly have a compelling rationale to fund the Cold War Triad.  
 
All this aside the notion that the US is going to remove the added redundancy and safety of a human being in the loop with an unmanned nuclear bomber is unrealistic.  It's politically a non starter.  Good luck getting Congress to fund it as they will certainly not.  Moreover, I can not possibly a imagine any weapon system that would be lower on Gate's priority list than a new nuclear penetrating bomber. 
 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       6/4/2009 7:18:33 PM

Given the end of the Cold War it might be worth examining exactly how important the Triad is.  It might have been USAF doctrine to use ICBM strikes to open the way for bombers during GTNW but the notion there would be any base to return to in order to drop more nukes the next day after BDA is rather incredible given the numbers of warheads we're talking about during the Cold War.

 That we are all still alive, and that nuclear threats still exist, there is no question about the viability of a nuclear triad.

It's a matter of opinion that any potential adversary we seek to deter that would not be so deterred by our ICBMs and SLBMs would however be deterred by his perception of our strategic bomber force as viable or not.

 No, fact actually. Bombers are more flexible and can be FWD deployed publicly as visible warning invisible missiles and SSBNs can't do that. 

Frankly developing a new nuclear bomber requires a new generation of nuclear cruise missiles and bombs.  It's not at all clear given trends in numbers of nuclear weapons that we would have very many of these given a minimum number of missile warheads.

The trend is that we don't test or develop new nukes. This takes EXISTING weapons such as B61 and mates it to a long range delivery systems.
 

It's rather surprising that someone who thinks we do not need more F-22s because they are so expensive wants to fund a new nuclear penetrating bomber given current existing redundant capability that is superior do the manned bomber in most respects.  There is no platform nearly as competitive as the F-22, much less superior, and yet for air superiority we should rely on less capable platforms while for nuclear war we suddenly have a compelling rationale to fund the Cold War Triad.  

 LOL strawman. It's not just because of expense, we don't need them in those numbers. That means buying even one more is not a good idea if you have enough, which we do, and other things are neglected.

All this aside the notion that the US is going to remove the added redundancy and safety of a human being in the loop with an unmanned nuclear bomber is unrealistic.  It's politically a non starter.  Good luck getting Congress to fund it as they will certainly not.  Moreover, I can not possibly a imagine any weapon system that would be lower on Gate's priority list than a new nuclear penetrating bomber. 

No it's not. Men will be in the loop. The AI is an additional option. Do you think the ICBMs have to be launched from the ground personnel manning the sites? There is nothing different except in this case the weapons can move prior to being deployed. For your reference...

E-6B Mercury airborne command post
 
Description
Communications relay and strategic airborne command post aircraft. Provides survivable, reliable, and endurable airborne command, control, and communications between the National Command Authority (NCA) and U.S. strategic and non-strategic forces. Two squadrons, the "Ironmen" of VQ-3 and the "Shadows" of VQ-4 deploy more than 20 aircrews from Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma to meet these requirements.
 
Background
Boeing derived the E-6A from its commercial 707 to replace the aging EC-130Q in the performance of the Navy's TACAMO ("Take Charge and Move Out") mission. TACAMO links the NCA with naval ballistic missile forces during times of crisis. The aircraft carries a very low frequency communication system with dual trailing wire antennas. The Navy accepted the first E-6A in August 1989.

The E-6B was conceived as a replacement for the Air Force's Airborne Command Post due to the age of the EC-135 fleet. The E-6B modified an E-6A by adding battlestaff positions and other specialized equipment. The E-6B is a dual-mission aircraft capable of fulfilling either the E-6A mission or the airborne strategic command post mission and is equipped with an airborne launch control system (ALCS). The ALCS is capable of launching U.S. land based intercontinental ballistic missiles. The first E-6B aircraft was accepted in December 1997 and the E-6B assumed its dual operational mission in October 1998. The E-6 fleet was completely modified to the E-6B configuration in 2003.
 
Point Of Contact
Naval Air Systems Command 
Public Affairs Department 
47123 Buse Road, Unit IPT 
Bldg. 2272, Suite 075 
Patuxent River, MD 20670-5440 
(301)757-1487
 
General Characteristics
Primary Function: Communications relay for fleet ballistic missile submarines (A and B models) and airborne command post for U.S. Strategic forces (B model).
Contractor: The Boeing Company.
Date Deployed: October 1998.
Unit Cost: 141.7 million.
Propulsion: Four CFM-56-2A-2 High bypass turbofans.
Length: 150 feet, 4 inches (45.8 meters).
Height: 42 feet 5 inches (12.9 meters).
Wingspan: 148 feet, 4 inches (45.2 meters).
Weight: Max gross, take-off. 342,000 lbs (154,400 kg).
Airspeed: 522 knots, 600 miles (960 km) per hour.
Ceiling: Above 40,000 feet.
Range: 6,600 nautical miles (7,590 statute miles, 12,144 km) with 6 hours loiter time.
Crew: 22
 
Last Update: 17 February 2009
 
 

Only thing new here fundamentally are extending the benefits of an unmanned aircraft to the nuclear capable bomber fleet. In essence you get SSBN-lite persistence and stealth for about 1/20th of the cost of a B-2.

-DA 
 
 
-DA
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    1/20th the cost of the B-2?   6/4/2009 7:44:39 PM
Sure, dood tell yourself anything that makes you happy, but there is no way this a/c is going to cost so little....
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       6/4/2009 7:52:20 PM
No, fact actually. Bombers are more flexible and can be FWD deployed publicly as visible warning invisible missiles and SSBNs can't do that. 

Not so sure its as finite as that.

aircraft, be they manned or unmanned have a basing issue, from that base is calculated their range of operation. it means that there is the basis to start calculating where they are likely to deploy from, and as such likely points of attack.   the very reason why aircraft carriers have validity is that they provide the US with a mobile base where the guarantee of foreign base or overflight access may be at risk (Turkey being a recent valid example).  

The principle advantage of the SSBN and SSGN fleet is that the enemy has to deploy disproportionate force to track and find - and that at any given point they are within 11 minutes of copping a ballistic missile on their territory.  Look at North East Africa as an example.  68 military vessels to police an area of more than 1m sq miles and they cannot cover it off properly.  McMullen has indicated that it would probably need over 1000 military vessels - and thats entering the aspirational 1000 vessel international navy touted 3 years ago (and a long ways off)

also bear in mind that the most powerful single asset in the US military  is the SSGN, more throw, more variety of throw, range, persistence, discretion, projection etc than any other single US military asset' also bear in mind that recent tests have resulted in (real) UAV launches from subs - and an SSGN now does enter the world of becoming an underwater UAS manager as well as ballistic and cruise manager
 
The issue is balance of capability. Unmanned is a long way off from being able to pick up some of the responsibility of mission delivery currently employed by direct man managed assets.  They're not ready to supplant some of the other delivery systems by a long shot.  Unmanned - like every other weapons delivery platform - should be seen as a complimentary weapons delivery system - not as a replacement for systems that at this point in time - and certainly in the proposed US delivery time frames for system and platform "fusion" - the near future.  

 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       6/4/2009 8:26:32 PM

Sure, dood tell yourself anything that makes you happy, but there is no way this a/c is going to cost so little....
there were some interesting numbers crunched up a few years back.

initially there was a view that UCAV's could cost 30% of an exquiv manned weapons delivery platform. within a few months it was recalculated to approx 70%

the numbers get even more interesting when you do proper system based costing.  ie, the through life, and systems support costs start to include ground station vehicles, controllers, training for controllers, (complex UAV's can involve up to 10x more peripheral staff to do the job) etc...

in fact, there is some pretty good evidence coming out of things like BAMs and tac UAV missions that show that the human resource cost is more than manned.  where it "saves"  is at the actual manned platform level because the issue of persistence and projection, endurance, fatigue, medical etc  is saved at the coal face...  but in the case of a long range UAV, they're finding that there needs to be regular shift rotation of the controllers (every few hours, if not every hour if complex).

the dollar saving argument has been rewritten a few times - and its creeping up, not down 
 
Quote    Reply

Monkeysee099    Technology Exists Already   6/4/2009 8:44:44 PM
Agreed with DA, the technology already exists and would be to difficult to employ.  Routes and plans can be pre-programmed with a pre-programmed RTB if the UCAV does indeed lose contact, it does happen.
 
Having your UCAV's up would provide a rapid and very visible nuclear deterrent and would be able to provide some form, maybe limited, of ISR in its location.
 
However the costs associated with these systems are going up because the support force required is pretty large, however switching controllers out every hour or even every 4 is not happening.  They might get breaks or something but shifts are likely 8 to 12 hours.  Support forces include airborne control with all the very complicated and specialized comm gear in place in their little boxes, mx for the aircraft and the boxes themselves, and a crew at the landing area to either land or monitor the landing.  Factor in logistical support for the personnel at both locations.
 
DA is right about the tiered responses, NUCAV's would be able to provide what B-52's did during the Cold War, up in the air using less fuel providing a ready response 24/7.  Cruise missles play a different role and those aren't reusable.  Ballistic missles also play a different role.  I'd argue that a UCAV that can carry conventional weapons can easily carry nukes as well, the question is would you want it to?
 
Will the DoD or the American public trust a machine, unmanned, to carry nukes?  Regardless of how safe it is in actuality, public perception as to how safe it is would be far different.  Considering the severity and definite loss of life in any nuclear conflict, wouldn't it be prudent to put a man up there who can make that final decision?  Do we really want to leave it up to Skynet or the Whoppr?  Not reactionary and anti UAV but real questions that the public will ask.
 
Quote    Reply

Monkeysee099    Technology Exists Already   6/4/2009 8:45:57 PM
Agreed with DA, the technology already exists and would be to difficult to employ.  Should be wouldn't be difficult to employ.
 
Quote    Reply

benellim4       6/4/2009 9:10:33 PM
Anyone who has been involved with the comms portion of a SIOP plan knows why this is a non-starter.
 
The problem is there are too many people in power that don't have Cold War experience and have forgotten what nuclear calculus is, why are triad was built the way it is, and why the protocols we have now were developed. If you understand the why, then you can understand how this doesn't work.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       6/4/2009 9:37:48 PM

Anyone who has been involved with the comms portion of a SIOP plan knows why this is a non-starter.

 

The problem is there are too many people in power that don't have Cold War experience and have forgotten what nuclear calculus is, why are triad was built the way it is, and why the protocols we have now were developed. If you understand the why, then you can understand how this doesn't work.


I understand perfectly why, I know not only does it work, but almost all of the needed technologies are operational and the only legitimate criticism whatsoever in all of the post in this thread are those who bring up institutional resistance and the fact that we might be uncomfortable without a man in direct control ON BOARD. Other than that, all challenges with regard to technological feesibility are invalid, all challenges with regards to COMMS architecture vulnerability are invalid, all questions of cost are invalid ect. Not that I don't respect those of you who disagree, but in my opinion you are clearly wrong. In fact, in a hurry, the DoD could put a nuclear armed UCAV in the air before the end of summer if necessary. Maybe faster. It would be crude, but could be done. Extend that timeline out to 2018 or so and a fully functional feature complete N-UCAS could be operational. Of course that assumes the funding is there. Any doubters should refer to the fact that the USAF is already looking into something just like this.

-DA
 

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    You can 't abort a robot.   6/4/2009 9:44:34 PM

Anyone who has been involved with the comms portion of a SIOP plan knows why this is a non-starter.

 

The problem is there are too many people in power that don't have Cold War experience and have forgotten what nuclear calculus is, why are triad was built the way it is, and why the protocols we have now were developed. If you understand the why, then you can understand how this doesn't work.


Ir send a clear a clear and public message like Nixon dd in the 72 Arab Israeli war. Yeah, some of us do understand the advantages of a MANNED bomber as part of the Triad. Ben.
 
The ICCM has uts modern place in the mix because they can be made relatively cheaply and they are HARD to stop, but they should be supplemental toi the ICBM force as a means to blow holes open in the enemy defense.
 
One  comment about basing. There are those huge salt flats un the Western United States. The entire  arsenal of the old Soviet Union couldn't stop the old SAC from using that as a HUGE ad-hoc bomber base.  
 
And then there is one more comment. It was the idiot Clinton Administration that disbanded SAC. Its been reconstoituted of sorts as GSC or Global Strike Command. Talk about reinventing the WHEEL! What goes around comes around. And that comment  goes for all of you truck drivers! Leave the rocket science to the rocketeers.........
 
Herald
 

 

 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       6/4/2009 10:48:44 PM
Routes and plans can be pre-programmed with a pre-programmed RTB if the UCAV does indeed lose contact, it does happen.

and yet the US has lost a significant number of  UAV's ober afghanistan even with todays level of technology surety.

these losses have occurred on special operations as well as normal oversight, kill, persist and in unmolested space.  that includes benign space where there has been no enemy electronic molestation.  this was with  UAV's that did have RTB encoded or encoded to return to the last comms point.

its made the chinese happy, and its made afghani warlords wealthier....

there are still substantial practical issues to be addressed, no matter what spin the vendors put on it.

 


 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       6/4/2009 11:27:03 PM


Routes and plans can be pre-programmed with a pre-programmed RTB if the UCAV does indeed lose contact, it does happen.



and yet the US has lost a significant number of  UAV's ober afghanistan even with todays level of technology surety.

these losses have occurred on special operations as well as normal oversight, kill, persist and in unmolested space.  that includes benign space where there has been no enemy electronic molestation.  this was with  UAV's that did have RTB encoded or encoded to return to the last comms point.

its made the chinese happy, and its made afghani warlords wealthier....

there are still substantial practical issues to be addressed, no matter what spin the vendors put on it.



Yes and we lost enough money in B-2A and B-1B crashes to buy 2 dozen of these things. I've recovered crashed UAS so I understand how frequently this happens. But by the end of the next decade, these UA will be much more reliable and no more vulnerable to electronic molestation than any one of several dozen platforms that operates in hostile territory. You can plot out the UA failure rate over time. It's getting substantially better and by the timeframe of something like this at the current rate it would be likely to exceed even manned platforms class A mishap performance. Fact is you have Generals, Admirals and SecDefs all talking about this...SERIOUSLY. And to Congress no less. So it's not just me. The only real issue is will we trust these task to machines anymore than we do. THATS IT.
 
-DA





 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    THATS IT?   6/4/2009 11:38:26 PM
No its not. Facts trump assertions:
 
 
Three years hasn't changed much.
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       6/4/2009 11:46:58 PM
Fact is you have Generals, Admirals and SecDefs all talking about this...SERIOUSLY. And to Congress no less. So it's not just me. The only real issue is will we trust these task to machines anymore than we do. THATS IT.
therein lies a significant part of the problem,  I'm sure I'm not the only one in here who's attended technology briefings where the senior uniforms and civilian "governing" partners expectations of what they want and what they expect to achieve are dislocated from what the geeks are able to guarantee.

the problem is that at a number of levels, some senior uniforms are blinded by the endgame tactical opportunity over the reality of what can safely be delivered/

unfortunately people die as a result when those views aren't synchronised.

can it be done - yes, years away.  now?  all you're doing is putting your own dependant stakeholders/operators in unnecessary harms way so that some boofhead can claim innovation. 

tread softly, slowly, responsibly.  people need to pull back and pause on the spin generated from some in industry... 
 
Quote    Reply
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy