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Subject: USAF CoS Prefers F-35, UAS and NGB. Also say USAF has enough TACAIR capability
DarthAmerica    5/27/2009 10:45:26 PM
U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff Norton Schwartz said increasing production rates for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and developing the next-generation bomber are at the top of his wish list of projects to fund if the service had more money.

SOURCE:
h*tp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/SCHWARTZ052009.xml&headline=Schwartz%20Wish%20List:%20Boost%20F-35,%20Plan%20NGB


Testifying before the House Armed Services Committee on the Air Force?s $160.5 billion fiscal 2010 budget request May 19, Schwartz said service leaders felt they had enough tactical aircraft capability despite Defense Secretary Robert Gates? plans to halt F-22 Raptor procurement at 187 aircraft.

The Air Force chief said the service?s leadership believed it was a ?prudent opportunity to accelerate the retirement of older aircraft.? The FY ?10 budget calls for retiring 250 F-15s, F-16s and A-10s, enabling the Air Force to redistribute more than $3.5 billion over the next six years to modernize combat air forces into a ?smaller but more capable force,? Schwartz and Air Force Secretary Michael Donley told lawmakers in joint written testimony.

Schwartz did say more money would make it easier and faster to upgrade remaining legacy aircraft and make modifications to the F-22 until the F-35 starts rolling off the line in large numbers.

Schwartz said the Air Force would like to see F-35 production boosted to at least 80 aircraft and perhaps as many as 110 per year before the F-16s start retiring in large numbers.

Committee members, including Chairman Ike Skelton (D-Mo.) and Rep. John McHugh (N.Y.), the senior Republican on the panel, worried about producing and flying an aircraft while it was still being tested.

Donley conceded budget constraints compelled the Air Force to make some difficult calls. If there was more money ?we might have made some different choices,? Schwartz added. But both leaders insisted the Air Force was not short-changing itself.

The chief of staff said his wish list also included developing plans for the future long-range strike capability. ?We need, through the QDR [Quadrennial Defense Review] and the NPR [Nuclear Posture Review] to get our secretary of defense comfortable with the parameters of what we propose for that platform.?

Gates canceled funding for a next-generation bomber study, which Schwartz said was of concern to the Air Force ?Once we get him comfortable with the parameters ? range, payload, manned, unmanned, nuclear, non-nuclear, low observable, very low observable ? then we need to proceed aggressively with that program.?

Schwartz said the Air Force also needs to explore using additional automation in unmanned aerial systems (UAS) to reduce manpower. He noted that currently one crew operates a single UAS.
 
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mustang22       6/2/2009 12:08:21 AM

There is no reason two people can't post on a message board and not maintain mutual respect. I KNOW Warpig and I disagree on some very fundamental issues. I KNOW Rocky and I disagree on the current USG. There are many others I disagree with as well. Heck, look as BW and FS positions on French aircraft. We all manage to do this without getting personal. That's something we all need to self-enforce. Debating someone I disagree with is actually very fun. It's a give and take situation where at the end we all learn something. Allowing it to get personal completely takes the fun out of this.







-DA 

Exactly,
 
It took post Judgement Day HK's for us to agree on the right amount of F-22's, give it 3 weeks and will be talking about Decepticons!!
 
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DarthAmerica       6/2/2009 12:12:46 AM

There is a difference between optimism and reality Darth. Along the way this may turn out to be a much bigger battle than we are seeing with the F-22. If you think about it, post Reagan what major weapons program has come in at budget and not been drastically cut? When do the international partners become fed up with the delays and cost increases? I would go as far as to say Rocky's prediction is much more realistic than optimistically saying we get anything close to 2500.

Disagree for the reasons I previously stated... 

We are victims of our own design. Never settling on 2nd best no matter what the cost is finally starting to catch up with us. Our military deserves the best but until the American public says no to the top dollar free agent mentality, we continue to spend more money, accrue debt and eventually will implode.
 
...In my opinion, the reason major weapons procurement has been cut so much is the same as it has always been between wars. The Cold War being no exception. Most of the major weapons systems in service today were designed to deal with the Soviets. When they went away, they took with them the need for a large percentage of these weapons. The Soviets were a massively stabilizing force. In there absence the world reorganized itself to fill the void they left behind. The new threats that emerged are not seeking to challenge us force of force. As bad as people wanted to make the PRC into the USSR it just didn't turn out that way. So as the nature of the threat changed, so too did the requirement for weapons systems. One of the most telling examples of that are the wars we are in now and the PacRim which our legacy forces can fight in, but under less than ideal circumstances as opposed to the European requirements they were designed for.
 
Also, defense spending is not sacrosanct. Like all areas of government, spending on and within the DoD must be kept reasonable, managed properly and balanced against the rest of the budget.
 
-DA


 
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LB    Clarity   6/2/2009 1:32:55 AM
So are you now back to saying that UCAVs can do air superiority missions?  What "job" does the UCAV allow our other manned aircraft to perform?
 
Talking about UCAVs doing primary air to air within a decade is wishful thinking.  An aircraft like the F-22 with immense altitude and speed advantages conveys these advantages directly into air to air missile range.  An air superiority UCAV requires either similar advantages or the virtue of being relatively inexpensive in order to be expendable and no air superiority UCAV with advanced radar and other systems is going to be inexpensive.
 
All of this leaves aside the not insignificant redundancy of having a man in the cockpit when your comms are jammed are otherwise interfered with.  We're decades away from an AI doing air to air.
 






The nice little picture posted shows future UCAVs performing every mission possible other than air superiority.  What decade this happens is an open question.  What is not is clearly the lowered need for F-35's since eventually UCAVs perform all F-35 missions.  The case for more F-22's and less F-35s could not be made more clearly.  Except of course if one simply compares costs.




Those UCAV's are creating the conditions that will allow MUCH SHORTER RANGED/ENDURANCE fighters to get close enough to do their jobs. This is something we can do in the next decade. MUST DO.  Especially in the case of the N-UCAS. Which are not tied to vulnerable fixed land bases. The same is true of the Super Hornet, Hornet, Harrier, Growler and F-35B/C. N-UCAS combined with a TLAM, NGB and legacy strategic bombers with associated support assets such as USAF tankers/Manned-Unmanned ISR will provide the bulk of the firepower necessary to sustain continuous air operations in the absence of land bases which would be under attack or threat of attack by conventional and/or WMD. We learned this in the early days of OEF.




The DoD has been prodded in the right direction. Once the senior leadership adjust and is replaced with todays officers and NCO's things will accelerate rapidly as a result of lessons we learned. Once industry completes the refocusing on 21st century style warfare the pace will pick up even more.  

 

-DA 









 
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Herald12345    Three weeks and two days after the poster finally admitted he didn't know what he was discussing and we are back to the same thing?    6/2/2009 2:34:37 AM
Sigh. UASs can recon and some can strike but as of yet, NONE can fight.
 
Herald
 
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DarthAmerica    LB Reply   6/2/2009 3:52:47 AM

So are you now back to saying that UCAVs can do air superiority missions?  What "job" does the UCAV allow our other manned aircraft to perform?

Look, LB, if you are sincere and wish to debate this, I'll do so. But if you don't consider it a valid concept, then lets not be coy. I already explained and showed you a UAV doing and air superiority task....a dacade ago. We are well beyond that now. When things like the JDRADM come online, things are going to get very interesting. 

Talking about UCAVs doing primary air to air within a decade is wishful thinking.  An aircraft like the F-22 with immense altitude and speed advantages conveys these advantages directly into air to air missile range.  An air superiority UCAV requires either similar advantages or the virtue of being relatively inexpensive in order to be expendable and no air superiority UCAV with advanced radar and other systems is going to be inexpensive.

 It is by no means wishful thinking. In fact it's naive to think it can't be done. UAVs can be made extremely cheap compared to manned platforms. The only reason you wont see dedicated air to air UCAVs next decade is the same reason why you see so few Raptors. There just isn't a whole hell of a lot to shoot at up there, the long range ISR/Strike UCAVs stealth minimize the likelihood of interception and as the F-35 and DAS demonstrate, high performance maneuverability isn't and speed are no longer absolute necessities. If you think this is needed to accurately put an AMRAAM like missile into a target then ask yourself how fast this is going and how many Gs it pulls...

 
...This is no problem for even a slug with Reapers performance. But it will be more than that. Next decades UCAVs will be multi mission capable craft and will employ air to air weapons....

 
 

All of this leaves aside the not insignificant redundancy of having a man in the cockpit when your comms are jammed are otherwise interfered with.  We're decades away from an AI doing air to air.
 
No, actually we are not. Relevant technologies have been demonstrated. We are well beyond that capability. And AI isn't the only way. We have done it via remote...

link width="425" height="344">  

 
With regard to Jamming. That works on manned platforms too. Don't fall for the hype here about telemetry and other such $5 words that are rolled out with little or no context. There is ECM and ECCM. Its classic sword and shield. We have the capability to put very secure redundant and reliable communications architectures in place. I've seen it. Again with regard to AI...

June 25, 2005 The Boeing X-45A unmanned aircraft continues to impress in trials as it showcases its ability to adapt to a realistic and changing wartime operational environment. During a recent test flight, its 52nd to date, an X-45A departed from NASA?s Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards Air Force Base in California, climbed to 29,000 ft. and entered the base?s test range. While flying the mission, several simulated Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) emitters were activated and the unmanned aircraft autonomously created its own flight plan to remain out of lethal range of the simulated SAM sites. Always managed by the pilot-operator, the X-45A then attacked its simulated priority ground target and showcased the ability to suppress enemy air defenses. Once the aircraft had conducted a simulated battle damage assessment, the X-45A safely returned to Edwards.

?The X-45A proved it could autonomously react to a dynamic threat environment while engaging a priority target,? said David Koopersmith, Boeing J-UCAS X-45 vice president and program manager. ?Onboard planning and decision capabilities like these will make our next unmanned system, the X-45C, a highly survivable platform for the warfighter.?



ANOTHER RECENTLY ANNOUNCED UCAV:
 Boeing is embarking upon a new rapid prototyping initiative for its defense business beginning with flight trials of its Phantom Ray—a version of the defunct X-45 effort.

The company is using its own internal research and development funding for flight tests of the unmanned air system demonstrator, slated for late 2010 at White Sands Missile Range, N. M., says Darryl Davis, vice president of the company?s Phantom Works division.

?Boeing is in the unmanned combat air system business . . . and in a big way,? Davis says.

Since losing the Joint Strike Fighter competition to Lockheed Martin in 2001 and the Navy-led Unmanned Combat Air System (UCAS) program to Northrop Grumman?s X-47 in 2007, the company has struggled to craft a strategic path forward for its tactical aircraft business. St. Louis is the hub of its fighter work, with the production line manufacturing F-15E variants for South Korea, Saudi Arabia and Singapore as well as F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and E/A-18 Growlers for the U.S. Navy here. Beyond these, however, the future is murky.

The Phantom Ray project—dubbed ?Project Reblue? internally at Boeing—was conceptualized in mid-2007, and started in earnest in June 2008, Davis says. It was kept secret even within the company except for a handful of executives and engineers until this month.

The concept behind Phantom Ray is to internally fund flight demonstrations of the air vehicle, giving the company hands-on experience with work on the potentially lucrative combat drone market while also wringing out some technologies that could be applied to future bids for Pentagon work. The key to the flight-test plan is to be able to ?demonstrate technology readiness? for the Pentagon when it articulates its needs.

This type of company-funded research is likely to become more critical to the survival of Boeing and its rivals in light of the expected leveling-off in U.S. defense spending. Defense Secretary Robert Gates proposed tabling a next-generation bomber—the biggest Air Force-led tactical aircraft program foreseen in the near future—among other major shifts in defense allocations.

For Boeing, Phantom Ray and other prototyping projects are keeping a small cadre of engineers focused on designing next-generation concepts and engaged in flight-test efforts. They are also forcing the design team to be as lean as possible because of limited funding, and allowing the company to experiment with operational use of an aircraft built using some unconventional manufacturing processes, Davis adds.

The Phantom Works name was only reestablished in February; previously the company referred to the division as Advanced Systems. With reinstatement of the older name, Davis says the company is returning to a tradition of prototyping. Advanced Systems had been mainly focused on capturing new programs, detracting from work on future technologies.

The Pentagon has fewer programs today than in previous decades. And, after industry consolidation in the 1990s there are fewer companies in the market. Against this backdrop Davis says he is trying to select prototyping programs that mature technologies the Pentagon is likely to need before it lays out its requirements in forthcoming programs.

?When you do things like this, you do gamble,? Davis says. ?And, this is about taking risks and knowing how to manage them.? With many analysts suggesting that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter could be the last manned fighter, it is clear that future players in aerospace must tackle the challenges of developing and operating unmanned systems, including vehicle design, command and control technologies, and data transfer and exploitation. ?If we didn?t start to move faster, we might be left behind,? he said.

The Phantom Ray is not unlike Lockheed Martin?s 2007 unveiling of the Polecat UAS, a flying demonstrator with a stealthy, delta-wing shape spearheaded by that company?s advanced arm, the Skunk Works. Unfortunately, the Polecat crashed after its third flight test. Both companies are clearly struggling to prove they are relevant in the large UAS market space, dominated by Northrop Grumman and General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, developer of the Predator and Reaper product lines.

Davis intends to begin Phantom Ray taxi tests with the demonstrator in spring 2010. The Phantom Ray is a renamed X-45C, three of which were ordered to demonstrate land-based UCAS requirements for the U.S. Air Force. One full-up aircraft still stands, the Phantom Ray, and Boeing still has the structure for what would have been the second X-45C. The engines from the X-45 program were sold after its collapse, and the aircraft is now sitting in a shop here without a powerplant. It is slated to receive its General Electric F404-GE-102D engine in time to start engine runs early next year.

Some of the outer skins of the aircraft have been removed to allow engineers to verify that onboard wiring remains functional; the air vehicle was in storage following the X-45?s demise. Inherently stealthy design features, including the serpentine intake, onboard materials and flying-wing design, remain, though demonstrating survivability isn?t one of the key goals of the flight-test program, Davis says.

The X-45?s roots give Phantom Ray a complex history. The Air Force-led X-45 effort was merged with a U.S. Navy program under the Joint UCAS (J-UCAS) moniker, but the marriage was short-lived. The Air Force?s requirements, originally geared to the suppression-of-enemy-air-defense mission were aligned with the Boeing aircraft, while the Navy?s needs for long-range intelligence collection from aircraft carriers were more in line with Northrop?s X-47.

Though both services have struggled with the cultural shift required to support an unmanned combat drone fleet, the Air Force announced in 2006 it was abandoning funding for the project, and the joint effort collapsed. Shortly thereafter in 2007, Northrop won the Navy demonstration program. Despite waffling support from the Air Force, Pentagon leadership continued to encourage Boeing?s development work. ?The Boeing activity and general body of work in unmanned combat aircraft is not going to go to waste. It?s being applied in a number of different areas,? said Dyke Weatherington, acting director of air warfare in the Pentagon?s acquisition office in August 2007.

Davis insists Phantom Ray is not simply a revival of the X-45. Though the demonstrator vehicle will be the lynchpin of the flight-test program, he underscores that the program is not designed to fit a particular government specification or to be an entrant in a competition. Nor is it constrained by the management and oversight of a government effort. It will be, he says, a ?lean? operation.

First, the company will prove airworthiness of the aircraft and then expand the flight envelope. Finally, Boeing will try to demonstrate possible applications of the aircraft, including weapons carriage and employment; electronic attack; intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; signals intelligence, and directed energy payloads.

Davis says exploring autonomous aerial refueling is ?very important.? Navy officials added this requirement to Northrop?s UCAS Demonstrator program late last year.

The legacy X-45 vehicle already provided space for a refueling receptacle on its left side aft section, where the wing joins the fuselage, and Boeing had already formed plans to install it in the earlier Air Force-led program.

Though Northrop Grumman won the UCAS demonstrator competition, Navy officials plan to conduct another competition—likely after 2013 when Northrop?s X-47 demonstrator flight tests conclude—for the development of a future unmanned, stealthy aircraft that will operate from aircraft carriers. Boeing?s work in the Phantom Ray flight trials will likely weigh heavily in a forthcoming design for that competition.


Believe it or not this is the future. It's here and is out there in the Black world now. We get hints of things here and there. Much like the 1980's and the F-117. Next decade these UCAVs will emerge and like the F-117, at first they will be operational in a somewhat limited capacity. But by the end of next decade and the 2020's. They will be as common place as stealth aircraft are now. You will be seeing multirole a2a/a2g armed long endurance stealthy UAVs with 50+ hour endurance and the ability to refuel, re-oil and re-arm in mid flight. Soon you will see things like conformal array's and DEWs on these aircraft. And don't forget...

BALTIMORE, June 13, 2007 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) and its teammates L-3 Communications, Inc. (NYSE:LLL) and Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) have successfully conducted the first in-flight communication's link with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

"We took our targeting radar and turned it into a 'talking' radar by enabling it to transmit and receive unprecedented amounts of information," said Teri Marconi, vice president of Northrop Grumman's combat avionics business unit. "We're revolutionizing the way that data is collected, stored and distributed on the battlefield."

The Radar Common Data Link (R-CDL) represents the most advanced concept and approach in providing a high-speed pipeline to offload data and imagery from a tactical platform. R-CDL uses the AESA radar's fire control transmitter and antenna to perform high-data rate, two-way communications at long ranges.

Synthetic aperture radar map imagery and streaming video were relayed from a Northrop Grumman BAC 1-11 test aircraft to an L-3 Communications ground station. During the mission, the team transmitted and received in full duplex at 274-megabits per second burst rate. The airborne and ground terminals used off-the-shelf, L-3 programmable modems with the addition of a new R-CDL waveform.

This capability complements tactical data links and supports potential future missions conducted by the Lockheed Martin fifth-generation fighter aircraft. This will allow pilots to relay important combat information to the global information grid (GIG) in seconds.

Marconi added that the flight test represents the beginning of new connectivity to the GIG and the next step in network centric warfare.

Headquartered in New York City, L-3 Communications employs over 63,000 people worldwide and is a prime system contractor in aircraft modernization and maintenance, C3ISR (Command, Control, Communications, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance) systems and government services. L-3 is also a leading provider of high technology products, subsystems and systems. The company reported 2006 sales of $12.5 billion. To learn more about L-3, please visit the company's web site at www.L-3Com.com.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products, and services. The corporation reported 2006 sales of $39.6 billion.


It's coming.

-DA 

BALTIMORE, June 13, 2007 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) and its teammates L-3 Communications, Inc. (NYSE:LLL) and Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) have successfully conducted the first in-flight communication's link with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

"We took our targeting radar and turned it into a 'talking' radar by enabling it to transmit and receive unprecedented amounts of information," said Teri Marconi, vice president of Northrop Grumman's combat avionics business unit. "We're revolutionizing the way that data is collected, stored and distributed on the battlefield."

The Radar Common Data Link (R-CDL) represents the most advanced concept and approach in providing a high-speed pipeline to offload data and imagery from a tactical platform. R-CDL uses the AESA radar's fire control transmitter and antenna to perform high-data rate, two-way communications at long ranges.

Synthetic aperture radar map imagery and streaming video were relayed from a Northrop Grumman BAC 1-11 test aircraft to an L-3 Communications ground station. During the mission, the team transmitted and received in full duplex at 274-megabits per second burst rate. The airborne and ground terminals used off-the-shelf, L-3 programmable modems with the addition of a new R-CDL waveform.

This capability complements tactical data links and supports potential future missions conducted by the Lockheed Martin fifth-generation fighter aircraft. This will allow pilots to relay important combat information to the global information grid (GIG) in seconds.

Marconi added that the flight test represents the beginning of new connectivity to the GIG and the next step in network centric warfare.

Headquartered in New York City, L-3 Communications employs over 63,000 people worldwide and is a prime system contractor in aircraft modernization and maintenance, C3ISR (Command, Control, Communications, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance) systems and government services. L-3 is also a leading provider of high technology products, subsystems and systems. The company reported 2006 sales of $12.5 billion. To learn more about L-3, please visit the company's web site at www.L-3Com.com.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products, and services. The corporation reported 2006 sales of $39.6 billion.

Northrop Grumman Corporation is a $30 billion global defense and technology company whose 122,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in information and services, electronics, aerospace and shipbuilding to government and commercial customers worldwide.

 
 
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DarthAmerica    Addendum    6/2/2009 4:06:18 AM

With the use of massive aerial refueling, sophisticated target acquisition systems, and smart, precision weapons, modern air powers are capable of engaging targets anywhere and anytime. Yet, ordnance release requires terminating the aircraft's mission to re-arm for the following mission. Flying to and from a distant battlespace poses a "bottleneck" for massive airpower operations.

According to Nir Padan, CEO of the Israeli company FAR Technologies, the Air-Borne Re-Arming concept is real and could dramatically enhance operational tempo of combat aircraft and particularly UCAVs. Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) and FAR Technologies performed a successful technological feasibility study anddesign of the Air-Borne Re-Arming (ABRA) system. Padan says that airborne rearming could increase the yield from any fleet of strike aircraft, particularly in long range and extended duration missions, typical to those carried out by UCAVs. Padanadds that on the long term, this mode of operation will  require less missions, fewer takeoff/landing cycles, resulting in lower maintenance costs. A side benefit will be the improved safety and survivability of the operating bases and carriers. 

The system consists of a bomb storage and loading device , attached to a boom at carried by the cargo plane and a smart pylon carried by the attack aircraft, which obtains the weapon from the robotic arm, attaching it to the weapon's bay or external weapon carrying pylons. An aerial rearming aircraft such as a C-130C, can carry up to 16 MK-84 guided or unguided bombs or considerably more smaller weapons (C-17/5 may potentially carry 4-6 times more). Bombs can be stored in an external or internal bay. The robotic uses an extendable boom, operating from the cargo plane. Controlled by an automatic engagement control (AEC) and supported aerodynamic lift surfaces, the robotic weapon loader will transfer the ordnance from the cargo plane to the attack aircraft. The smart pylon may include sensors and a camera for day and night use. It will interface with the automatic engagement control (AEC) system to automatically activate ordnance on the pneumatic multi-action ejection mechanism and an active sway brace for mid-air operation. 

Based on the concept and technology, Professor Asher Tishler, from Faculty of Management, Tel Aviv University, conducted an analysis of the potential contribution of airborne rearming on 3 ? 9 hours bombing missions at ranges of 250 to 1,000 nautical miles from the operating base. For UCAVs, 12 ? 30 hour mission durations were analyzed.

The analysis demonstrated a dramatic improvement and increase of operational tempo, resulting in the number of attacks executed and target killed without increasing the aircraft fleet. Improvement of up to 100% was demonstrated for short range attacks and over 200% for extended range operations. Since aircraft do not have to return to base to rearm, the density of the attacks could be increased, resulting in faster target neutralization (time required to drop a set number of bombs on target could be reduced by up to 70%). Fielding Airborne Rearming systems could introduce new economies for air forces, where fewer resources can perform more missions, resulting in lower acquisition and maintenance costs. Other attributes of airborne rearming are more flexible use of forward operational bases, (as aircraft can takeoff without loads) and higher survivability of the home base and strike aircraft (reducing pressure from operating bases). 
 
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Herald12345    S^2 D^2   6/8/2009 1:01:04 AM
Any telemetry link can be defeated. Any control can be compromised.
 
Herald
 
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DarthAmerica       6/8/2009 1:37:27 AM

Any telemetry link can be defeated. Any control can be compromised.

 

Herald


It's always a sword vs shield circular argument. The key is the quality of the intel assets supporting the ECCM effort.

-DA 
 
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Herald12345    I'm the one with the sword.   6/8/2009 10:15:36 AM
And I know how to use it. I only need to succeed ONCE.
 
Argument CLOSED.
 
Herald
 
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DarthAmerica       6/8/2009 5:49:15 PM

And I know how to use it. I only need to succeed ONCE.

 

Argument CLOSED.

 

Herald


Not true at all. That's why there are redundancies and continuous updates to ensure physical and electronic COMSEC. You need to keep succeeding and that is no guarantee. That's like saying if you lose your ANCD once, then its all over when in fact there are contingencies to deal with that.

-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/8/2009 7:13:18 PM
Similarly, its like saying that GPS jammers make JDAMs ineffective. The key is the ability of your ISR effort and countermeasures.

-DA 
 
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Herald12345    John Walker   6/8/2009 7:40:27 PM




And I know how to use it. I only need to succeed ONCE.



 



Argument CLOSED.



 



Herald







Not true at all. That's why there are redundancies and continuous updates to ensure physical and electronic COMSEC. You need to keep succeeding and that is no guarantee. That's like saying if you lose your ANCD once, then its all over when in fact there are contingencies to deal with that.




-DA 

As I said this argument is over.

Herald
 

 
 
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warpig       6/8/2009 8:37:56 PM





And I know how to use it. I only need to succeed ONCE.




Argument CLOSED.



 


Not true at all. That's why there are redundancies and continuous updates to ensure physical and electronic COMSEC. You need to keep succeeding and that is no guarantee. That's like saying if you lose your ANCD once, then its all over when in fact there are contingencies to deal with that.





As I said this argument is over.


Herald



Well, there you have it.  Everything people have been dreaming up regarding UCAVs for the last several decades is all moot, or worse it actually is all wasted effort barking up the wrong tech tree.  You see, what everyone (except one person) has forgotten is that all the KY-58s (or whatever) in the world can't protect you from compromise from within.
 
Okay, someone call the guys at General Atomics and all the rest, and let them know that UCAVs are not possible.  Also, can someone give a shout out to the Predator and Reaper crews, and let them know we won't be using them anymore?  I bet there are some pilots mighty glad to hear they won't be stuck "flying" for three years from a desk behind a couple computer monitors, after all!
 
And no one should bother posting anything else, this argument is FINISHED.
 
ENDIT.
 
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DarthAmerica       6/8/2009 9:01:14 PM
Below is a good read on some of what really happens in the spy vs spy like ECM vs ECCM battles. As you can see, it's never as clear cut as bit logic. The side with the best most comprehensive approach to ensuring the integrity of the system will most likely win the EW fight...




Iraq and GPS: Some Frequently Asked Questions

Richard B. Langley

Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering

University of New Brunswick

<lang@unb.ca>

13 March 2003

1. If a war starts with Iraq, will GPS be turned off or will there be a global

reduction in available accuracy?

Prior to 2 May 2000, the accuracy afforded users of the GPS Standard Positioning

Service (SPS) was purposefully degraded through a policy and technique known as

Selective Availability (SA). The use of SA gave military users of GPS a position

accuracy advantage ? one it did not wish to share with potential adversaries. SA was

effected by manipulating or dithering the output of each GPS satellite?s active atomic

clock. This clock controls the generation of all of the satellite?s signals and hence the

measurements made by a GPS receiver. SA was imposed at a level which would yield a

stated SPS horizontal (latitude and longitude) accuracy of 100 metres or better 95 percent

of the time for any point in the world during a measurement interval of one day. On 2

May 2000, by presidential decree, the level of SA was set to zero. SPS users immediately

saw a quantum jump in positioning accuracy with factors of 5 to 10 improvements. Even

a simple handheld receiver can now often yield horizontal position accuracies of 5

metres.

When SA was set to zero, the United States Government stated that it had no intent to

ever use SA again. According to the Interagency GPS Executive Board, the U.S.

government agency that manages GPS, there has been no change in this policy. The

decision to effectively switch off SA came four years after the adoption of a government

policy document which stated, in part, that it was the government?s intention ?to

discontinue the use of GPS Selective Availability (SA) within a decade in a manner that

allows adequate time and resources for our military forces to prepare fully for operations

without SA.? Basically, this meant that the military would develop measures to prevent

the hostile use of GPS to ensure that the U.S. retains a military advantage. But it was to

do this in a manner which would not unduly disrupt or degrade civil use of GPS. The

number of civil GPS users far exceeds the number of military users and is estimated to be

in the tens of millions worldwide. Civil GPS uses include the navigation of commercial

aircraft, oil tankers, trucks, and space vehicles. Many emergency service providers now

rely on GPS to more quickly respond to accidents.

The technique the U.S. military developed which allowed them to switch off SA is

selective in-theatre jamming of the SPS signal.

So, if there is a war with Iraq, it is highly unlikely that SA would be re-imposed as it

would affect all civil GPS users worldwide. It is also highly improbable that GPS signals

would be simply switched off.

2. Will the U.S. jam GPS in Iraq?

The U.S. military certainly has the capability to jam the GPS SPS signal using either

ground-based jammers or jamming transmitters onboard aircraft. Extensive jamming tests

have taken place on military reservations in the U.S. over the past decade. But would the

U.S. actually use jammers in Iraq?

To answer this question, we must know something about the GPS signals and how they

are used by civil and military receivers. The SPS uses the C/A-code component of the

GPS L1 signal which is transmitted on 1575.42 MHz. The C/A-code, which stands for

coarse/acquisition-code, is a pseudorandom noise code which the GPS receiver uses to

determine the distance to a satellite. The distance is determined by aligning the received

code with a replica of the code generated in the receiver. By measuring at least four such

distances to different satellites simultaneously and knowing where the satellites are from

the navigation messages they transmit, the receiver can figure out where it is. The C/Acode

is a relatively short code which repeats every millisecond and a GPS receiver can

easily lock onto or acquire it.

The military?s GPS capability is known as the Precise Positioning Service (PPS). It relies

on a much longer code called the P-code (for precise or precision) which is transmitted

on both the L1 frequency and the L2 frequency at 1227.60 MHz. The P-code is encrypted

(and it?s then called the Y-code) so that it cannot be accessed by unauthorized users.

Encryption also prevents a military GPS receiver from being fooled or spoofed by a fake

GPS signal transmitted by an enemy. The encryption process is known as Anti-Spoofing.

Military GPS receivers have decryption capabilities which permit them to recover the Pcode.

Each satellite?s unique P-code segment is one week long. In order to determine the

distance to a satellite using the P-code, the receiver must align a replica of the code it

generates with the arriving code. With such a long code, it was formerly difficult for the

signal processors in P-code receivers to quickly find the correct alignment point in the

code without help. It got this help from the C/A-code. So even though military GPS

receivers determine their position (and velocity and time) from the P(Y)-code, they

generally have acquired the C/A-code first and then using information from that signal

have zeroed in on the P-code. Most of the military-grade GPS receivers now in existence

work on this principle.

Advances in receiver technology now permit direct acquisition of the P-code without

relying on the C/A-code. This new technology has been combined with improved

security procedures to prevent the use of military GPS receivers by unauthorized

personnel. GPS receivers with this capability include a module known as SAASM

(Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module). All new receivers acquired by the

military after 30 September 2002 are to include the SAASM. According to its Web site,

the GPS Joint Program Office had authorized over 2,050 procurements of SAASMs and

SAASM-equipped devices as of 22 October 2002. Although some older receivers can be

retrofitted with the SAASM technology, the Defense Department has not mandated such

action.

So, to get back to the question: ?Will the U.S. jam GPS in Iraq? ? they certainly have the

technology to do so. The C/A-code can be selectively jammed without significantly

affecting reception of the P(Y)-code. SPS receivers would then become useless.

However, as we discussed, most military GPS receivers now in the field use the C/Acode

before switching to the P-code. Operation of these receivers would be made difficult

in the presence of C/A-code jammers. It might be possible to initialize a receiver outside

the range of a jammer so that it is already operating on the P(Y)-code once it gets inside

the jammer?s coverage zone. However, should it temporarily lose lock on the satellite

signals, the receiver might have difficulty in reacquiring them.

Some military GPS receivers come equipped with anti-jam technology, such as nullsteering

antennas, and these receivers could continue to operate in the presence of a

jamming signal.

So, the U.S. military may or may not jam GPS in Iraq. The decision to do so will depend

on whether or not they think the Iraqis are using GPS (would you really want to rely on

your enemy?s system?) and whether or not its use would compromise their own

operations.

3. Will the Iraqi military jam GPS?

It is relatively easy to build a GPS jammer. One can be built from a surplus direct-tohome

satellite TV receiver or from scratch using plans which can be found on the Web. A

company in Russia actually markets GPS jammers and it has been reported that the Iraqis

have purchased some of them. So, the Iraqi military might try to use GPS jammers in an

attempt to foil GPS-equipped weapons such as the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM).

But,

such actions would likely not be successful. In the first place, JDAMs include an

inertial navigation system which would continue to navigate the bomb should its

reception of GPS signals be disrupted. And, like any radio transmitter, the location of a

jammer could be easily found and the device neutralized.

4. Where can I learn more about GPS and its military uses and jamming and antijamming

technologies?

The Precision Revolution: GPS and the Future of Aerial Warfare by Michael Russell Rip

and James M. Hasik, published by the Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, Maryland in

2002.

?Satellite-Guided Munitions,? by Michael Puttré in Scientific American, Vol. 288, No. 2,

February 2003, pp. 66-73.

?Jamming GPS: Susceptibility of Some Civil GPS Receivers,? by Börje Forssell and

Trond Birger Olsen in GPS World, Vol. 14, No. 1, January 2003, pp. 54-58;

< link

Global Positioning System: Signals, Measurements, and Performance by Pratap Misra

and Per Enge, published by Ganga-Jamuna Press, Lincoln, Massachusetts in 2001.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



 
...doesn't matter if you are talking to a JDAM, FBCB2 or a  UAV/UCAV. There are ways to stop it and ways to keep it from being stopped. The most prepared will win.

-DA 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    GF tried to tell you politely and you missed it, so I will bluntly.....   6/8/2009 9:11:55 PM












And I know how to use it. I only need to succeed ONCE.









Argument CLOSED.







 






Not true at all. That's why there are redundancies and continuous updates to ensure physical and electronic COMSEC. You need to keep succeeding and that is no guarantee. That's like saying if you lose your ANCD once, then its all over when in fact there are contingencies to deal with that.












As I said this argument is over.





Herald









Well, there you have it.  Everything people have been dreaming up regarding UCAVs for the last several decades is all moot, or worse it actually is all wasted effort barking up the wrong tech tree.  You see, what everyone (except one person) has forgotten is that all the KY-58s (or whatever) in the world can't protect you from compromise from within.

 

Okay, someone call the guys at General Atomics and all the rest, and let them know that UCAVs are not possible.  Also, can someone give a shout out to the Predator and Reaper crews, and let them know we won't be using them anymore?  I bet there are some pilots mighty glad to hear they won't be stuck "flying" for three years from a desk behind a couple computer monitors, after all!

 

And no one should bother posting anything else, this argument is FINISHED.

 

ENDIT.



The PRCs have our telemetry protocols. ALL of them.

Herald
 
Quote    Reply
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