The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - March 20, 2010




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: USAF CoS Prefers F-35, UAS and NGB. Also say USAF has enough TACAIR capability
DarthAmerica    5/27/2009 10:45:26 PM
U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff Norton Schwartz said increasing production rates for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and developing the next-generation bomber are at the top of his wish list of projects to fund if the service had more money.

SOURCE:
h*tp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/SCHWARTZ052009.xml&headline=Schwartz%20Wish%20List:%20Boost%20F-35,%20Plan%20NGB


Testifying before the House Armed Services Committee on the Air Force?s $160.5 billion fiscal 2010 budget request May 19, Schwartz said service leaders felt they had enough tactical aircraft capability despite Defense Secretary Robert Gates? plans to halt F-22 Raptor procurement at 187 aircraft.

The Air Force chief said the service?s leadership believed it was a ?prudent opportunity to accelerate the retirement of older aircraft.? The FY ?10 budget calls for retiring 250 F-15s, F-16s and A-10s, enabling the Air Force to redistribute more than $3.5 billion over the next six years to modernize combat air forces into a ?smaller but more capable force,? Schwartz and Air Force Secretary Michael Donley told lawmakers in joint written testimony.

Schwartz did say more money would make it easier and faster to upgrade remaining legacy aircraft and make modifications to the F-22 until the F-35 starts rolling off the line in large numbers.

Schwartz said the Air Force would like to see F-35 production boosted to at least 80 aircraft and perhaps as many as 110 per year before the F-16s start retiring in large numbers.

Committee members, including Chairman Ike Skelton (D-Mo.) and Rep. John McHugh (N.Y.), the senior Republican on the panel, worried about producing and flying an aircraft while it was still being tested.

Donley conceded budget constraints compelled the Air Force to make some difficult calls. If there was more money ?we might have made some different choices,? Schwartz added. But both leaders insisted the Air Force was not short-changing itself.

The chief of staff said his wish list also included developing plans for the future long-range strike capability. ?We need, through the QDR [Quadrennial Defense Review] and the NPR [Nuclear Posture Review] to get our secretary of defense comfortable with the parameters of what we propose for that platform.?

Gates canceled funding for a next-generation bomber study, which Schwartz said was of concern to the Air Force ?Once we get him comfortable with the parameters ? range, payload, manned, unmanned, nuclear, non-nuclear, low observable, very low observable ? then we need to proceed aggressively with that program.?

Schwartz said the Air Force also needs to explore using additional automation in unmanned aerial systems (UAS) to reduce manpower. He noted that currently one crew operates a single UAS.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15   NEXT
DarthAmerica       5/29/2009 4:20:07 PM
Hmmm lets see. In the post where I was talking about development cost but got accused of something else...


Herald12345    Not what you said.   5/28/2009 4:48:49 PM
You said the new bomber program was a ten billion dollar program. I showed you, poster, that you didn't have a clue as to what  the enabling legislation was or what the program costs could or would be. You were wrong. Simple concept that. WRONG.
 
Herald 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/28/2009 4:40:10 PM
Again Herald, I'm only referring to the cost to DEVELOP a NGB and then only in the context that it neatly fits within the amount of money saved by not buying more F-22's. I'm not arguing what the total program cost will be, should be or speculating on unit cost. That is a separate issue.

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply


 ...now the Herald acknowledges  I was talking about Dev cost See below...
 

Herald12345       5/29/2009 4:03:14 PM

 I just showed you how that for less than the cost of the 60 Raptors some here want. We could completely fund the development of one of these much more urgent and long term priorities which are on the USAF CoS list of things he'd like to see for the USAF.

No you didn't, poster. You showed a development cost estimate for the new bomber and even that was wrong as I CLEARLY showed..

Herald
 

...debate over and I'm glad it's been cleared up.


-DA 


 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Wrong.   5/29/2009 5:07:09 PM

Hmmm lets see. In the post where I was talking about development cost but got accused of something else...





































Herald12345    Not what you said.   5/28/2009 4:48:49 PM


You said the new bomber program was a ten billion dollar program. I showed you, poster, that you didn't have a clue as to what  the enabling legislation was or what the program costs could or would be. You were wrong. Simple concept that. WRONG.


 

Herald 


 

Quote    Reply





















DarthAmerica       5/28/2009 4:40:10 PM


Again Herald, I'm only referring to the cost to DEVELOP a NGB and then only in the context that it neatly fits within the amount of money saved by not buying more F-22's. I'm not arguing what the total program cost will be, should be or speculating on unit cost. That is a separate issue.




-DA 

 

Quote    Reply










 ...now the Herald acknowledges  I was talking about Dev cost See below...

 















Herald12345       5/29/2009 4:03:14 PM




 I just showed you how that for less than the cost of the 60 Raptors some here want. We could completely fund the development of one of these much more urgent and long term priorities which are on the USAF CoS list of things he'd like to see for the USAF.




No you didn't, poster. You showed a development cost estimate for the new bomber and even that was wrong as I CLEARLY showed..





Herald


 




...debate over and I'm glad it's been cleared up.







-DA 







 

Here you prevaricate. READ exactly what I said IN BOLD RED. At no time did I say you even knew it was a development cost for a new program. In fact what I said was that you got even THAT estimate wrong as in wrong in claiming that it was the bomber program and the development cost for same-(a two for).
 
Now if you continue to say otherwise then its clear that you have no respect for the truth.
 
Consider well what you write next, poster. You've already strayed out of the bounds of accuracy and honest presentation so far that your congruity with the truth is obtusely deviant as a vector.
 
Don't compound that error. 
 
Herald

 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/29/2009 5:11:11 PM
Null Content as usual.

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/29/2009 5:13:45 PM
DarthAmerica       5/29/2009 4:05:28 PM

DA,

 
We have discussed many times over why I support 60 more Raptors and you have provided you opinion on why they aren't necessary. So I have to ask, if Congress does provide the funds for more will you be as critical on that decision as you are on Gates decision to cut production? I don't want to start an "I told you so" argument, just looking for what your reaction might be.

No, I believe I've said before. I do not think the USAF should get 60 more Raptors but that if it does, so long as Congress provides ADDITIONAL funding for it and it doesn't touch or take away from other USAF programs, I would be fine with that. 

If someone wants to just give me 60 more to play with fine. But it's not worth it if it means sacrificing something else within the USAF/DoD. 

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

mustang22       5/29/2009 3:56:47 PM
DA,
 
We have discussed many times over why I support 60 more Raptors and you have provided you opinion on why they aren't necessary. So I have to ask, if Congress does provide the funds for more will you be as critical on that decision as you are on Gates decision to cut production? I don't want to start an "I told you so" argument, just looking for what your reaction might be.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    benellim4 reply   5/29/2009 3:23:48 PM

Mustang, I don't think the USAF CoS is being coy. He has mentioned these statements with regard to risk long before this got controversial. And as I mentioned, he didn't resign in protest, make public statements or mention the F-22 in his unfunded programs list. He has given ZERO support whatsoever for continued procurement and has in fact gone on record supporting the decision.  --DA


-Long before this got controversial? This has been controversial since the days when the Clinton Administration decided to cut the buy from 700+ to 383.


OK thats just plain incorrect data. There was never a cut from 700+ to 383 by President Clinton. The F-22 buy has been reduced in-line with the threat since at least 1990 under President Bush and SecDef Dick Cheney. The F-22 was cut from 700+ to 648. Then from 648 to 442. Then from that number to 339. Then IIRC recommendations by the USAF fighter Mafia pushed back for 383 and finally we have ended up with the 243 and 187 numbers. In other words, the Pentagon has been trimming F-22 fat in lock step with the Soviet style threat it was designed to face. NOTHING has changed with that trend. The last SecDef wanted it cut as well. Only legacy Cold Warriors who's perceptions of the threat were proven wrong or Congress persons who's districts are involved in production have supported the aircraft in more numbers. EVEN LOCKHEED doesn't want to fight for more BenelliM4. Think about that. The controversy has peeked only because we are at the end of the production cycle and final decisions must be made.


 

I have to think you're practicing willful ignorance. You do realize that Gates forced the nation's highest ranking officers to shut up when it came to the FY10 defense budget, right? A four-star supporting the SECDEF? You don't say, what do you think he was going to do? If you think Moseley was fired just because of the nuclear thing you're sadly mistaken. He was highly critical of SECDEF and his focus on OIF/OEF at the expense of the future (he complained in Feb and was looking for work in Jun).  Don't think that the current CoS doesn't understand that. 


Chastising Rebuke...


No, I don't realize that. This is internet mythology and in no way are you in a position to support such a claim. The SecDef is in charge and leads the DoD. He is the BOSS. If he decides that the DoD needs to go into a particular direction, then that is the way it goes. That's why he is put there. The Generals do not have to agree and they can resign or be fired if there are fundamental differences in the way things should go. I think rather than ignorant, I actually understand how it is supposed to work. The CIVILIAN is in charge for a reason.




Yet again you mention the unfunded list. The unfunded list has little to nothing to do with actual military need for the reasons I explained earlier. Of course the USAF CoS who had been put under a gag order by the SECDEF, will submit budget requests that fall in line with the SEDEF's views. To think otherwise is fooling yourself.


Again, you are wildly speculating on something I know you cannot prove. Again, calling me foolish is laughable when you can't provide even a scintilla of support for what you are claiming while I can fire back with direct quotes OF ALL INVOLVED PARTIES and then support those quotes with analysis. But it's cool if you disagree. Just know that if you and I were to take our respective positions in-front of a truly neutral 3rd party yours would go down in flames. I dare you to try.


 

The decision to stop F-22 production is based on deployment timetables for the USA/USMC when things were going south in Iraq. The simple fact of the matter is the US public doesn't have the stomach for large deployments of troops anymore.  We are going to see more small unit deployments to build relationships, stabilize governments, and hunt down the occasional terrorist.  We are going to see more regional powers develop. We are going to see the more regional powers develop. We are going to see more proliferation of 4th generation aircraft and modern Russian air defenses. 


This has been predicted by JFK 50 years ago. Nothing is new about the trend toward small unit warfare and the USAF is capable of defeating any current or projected regional power as is and under current plans through the next 2 decades. Regional powers are not an issue. In fact the only concern is for the simultinaeity of the conflicts. And only in the case of two near peer opponents is there an issue with regard to the F-22's roles. A very very low probability.



Gates is busy trying to transition the military from a Cold War military to a post Cold War military. He missed the boat. Pax America where we will be unchallenged on the sea and the air is gone. It was gone when we decided it was in our national interests to deploy large numbers of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and spend our national treasure on those operations. A window has opened for regional powers to challenge us, they know it. We should know it, but we don't. Gates has fallen into the same trap as those who have gone before. He is preparing for the last war. In this case, the last war is OIF/OEF.


Please. The USA dominance of the air and sea is many times stronger than it was at any point in history and continues to improve. We have no credible opponents in those domains. NONE. And the window you are talking about. I brought that up long ago and it is closing fast. Russia was the only power to even attempt to get through it and then only to preserve some of their former client states and stop NATO from getting to within unrefueled range of Moscow. Other than that the North Koreans proved they might be able to make a nuclear explosion. Iran failed utterly during the surge and the Chinese turned out not to be a direct threat as was hoped for by soon to be unemployed Cold Warriors.


This is reality. Not that you have to agree with my interpretation. But if you want to take the Pepsi Challenge and see if your positions are as strong as mine I'd love to see if you have more than just rumors and gossip.



-DA



 
Quote    Reply

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/29/2009 5:30:14 PM

Null Content as usual.




-DA 

That's all you got? Been caught in your own prevarication and that is your "answer"?
 
Do better. The next time you try to twist someones' words to score scholastic points instead of to advance a coherent fact based argument I'll remind you that you cannot misrepresent yourself  like that.
 
As for null content, that about describes half of what you posted on topic including your citations..
 
Herald
 
  
 
Quote    Reply

benellim4       5/29/2009 5:35:31 PM

OK thats just plain incorrect data. There was never a cut from 700+ to 383 by President Clinton. The F-22 buy has been reduced in-line with the threat since at least 1990 under President Bush and SecDef Dick Cheney. The F-22 was cut from 700+ to 648. Then from 648 to 442. Then from that number to 339. Then IIRC recommendations by the USAF fighter Mafia pushed back for 383 and finally we have ended up with the 243 and 187 numbers. In other words, the Pentagon has been trimming F-22 fat in lock step with the Soviet style threat it was designed to face. NOTHING has changed with that trend. The last SecDef wanted it cut as well. Only legacy Cold Warriors who's perceptions of the threat were proven wrong or Congress persons who's districts are involved in production have supported the aircraft in more numbers. EVEN LOCKHEED doesn't want to fight for more BenelliM4. Think about that. The controversy has peeked only because we are at the end of the production cycle and final decisions must be made.

OK, so the Clinton Administration went from 648 to 339. My numbers were off by ~50. The point remains the F-22 has been controversial for a long time. Even before the FY10 budget. That was the overriding point. As for LM's decision not to lobby for more, they still have the F-35 to think about. They want to keep their customer happy. They're not about to risk the bigger buy for 60 more F-22s. That is a business decision, not a decision based on national security.

 

No, I don't realize that. This is internet mythology and in no way are you in a position to support such a claim. The SecDef is in charge and leads the DoD. He is the BOSS. If he decides that the DoD needs to go into a particular direction, then that is the way it goes. That's why he is put there. The Generals do not have to agree and they can resign or be fired if there are fundamental differences in the way things should go. I think rather than ignorant, I actually understand how it is supposed to work. The CIVILIAN is in charge for a reason.

So if the boss says we're going with the high risk buy of 183 F-22s then the uniformed officer will follow, even if it is against their best military judgement. They also won't fight it publicly when ordered not to.




Again, you are wildly speculating on something I know you cannot prove. Again, calling me foolish is laughable when you can't provide even a scintilla of support for what you are claiming while I can fire back with direct quotes OF ALL INVOLVED PARTIES and then support those quotes with analysis. But it's cool if you disagree. Just know that if you and I were to take our respective positions in-front of a truly neutral 3rd party yours would go down in flames. I dare you to try.

So when did you get your JPME Phase 1 done? Do you understand how the budget process works in DoD? I know you don't want to talk about the budget process, but you are using the budget process as proof that the USAF doesn't want more F-22s. In fact, the USAF CoS himself said that 187 F-22s is a moderate to high risk buy and that the MILITARY requirement for F-22 is 243 fighters. That is his sworn testimony in front of Congress. Because his unfunded list, that is vetted through the SecDef's office does not have more F-22s in it does not negate his sworn testimony.


 



This has been predicted by JFK 50 years ago. Nothing is new about the trend toward small unit warfare and the USAF is capable of defeating any current or projected regional power as is and under current plans through the next 2 decades. Regional powers are not an issue. In fact the only concern is for the simultinaeity of the conflicts. And only in the case of two near peer opponents is there an issue with regard to the F-22's roles. A very very low probability.

The military is there to handle worst case. If you base your plan on hope, you plan to fail.


Please. The USA dominance of the air and sea is many times stronger than it was at any point in history and continues to improve.

This is simply not the case. Newer and more sophisticated weapons and systems designed to deny air and sea space to the US have never been more prevalent. One only needs to look at the number of hostile nations buying submarines to understand the point. One only has to look at the Chinese development of MRBM into anti-ship weapons to understand the point.


 

We have no credible opponents in those domains. NONE. And the window you are talking about. I brought that up long ago and it is closing fast. Russia was the only power to even attempt to get through it and then only to preserve some of their former client states and stop NATO from getting to within unrefueled range of Moscow. Other than that the North Koreans proved they might be able to make a nuclear explosion. Iran failed utterly during the surge and the Chinese turned out not to be a direct threat as was hoped for by soon to be unemployed Cold Warriors.

China is not slowing down their military expenditures. Their economy slowed, true. It slowed to a growth rate of 5%. We should be so lucky. China continues to develop anti-access weapons, while improving their training. One only has to look at  their deployment to the Horn of Africa, an unprecedented move, to see it. One only has to look at their recent exercise of eight(?) divisions over the road to understand this.  One only has to look at their recent build up of submarine bases and the antics of their "fishing" fleet with regard to our SURTASS ships to understand the threat.


This is reality. Not that you have to agree with my interpretation. But if you want to take the Pepsi Challenge and see if your positions are as strong as mine I'd love to see if you have more than just rumors and gossip.

All you have to do is read the news. 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Reality   5/29/2009 5:45:08 PM
EVEN LOCKHEED doesn't want to fight for more BenelliM4. Think about that
 
No what they said is THIS:
 
 

Lockheed Won?t Fight Pentagon on F-22 Plan

Bruce L. Tanner, the company?s chief financial officer, told stock analysts that the company had received ?a full hearing? from Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and top Air Force officials, and ?we?ll accept those decisions.?

Mr. Tanner made the comments in discussing the company?s first-quarter results. Net income fell nearly 9 percent, to $666 million, or $1.68 a share, compared with $730 million, or $1.75 a share, in the period a year earlier, the company said.

Lockheed Martin, the nation?s largest military contractor, said growing pension costs had cut into its profit. But it still beat analysts? consensus forecast of $1.64 a share. Sales rose 4 percent, to $10.4 billion, just below the analyst forecast of $10.5 billion.

Legislators from Georgia, Connecticut and other states with major suppliers are still likely to push for more planes, saying they are concerned about job losses.

Mr. Tanner said that under previous contracts, F-22s would be assembled at Lockheed Martin?s plant in Marietta, Ga., until 2012. He added that most of the workers there would be able to shift to expanding production lines for other planes.

Mr. Tanner also disputed a report in The Wall Street Journal on Tuesday that said computer hackers had downloaded ?sizable amounts? of data on a program to build another fighter plane, the F-35, from the computer systems of two or three of the contractors.

Lockheed Martin is also the prime contractor for that plane. Mr. Tanner said that the company thought the article ?was incorrect in its representation of successful cyberattacks on the F-35 program.?

?I?ve not heard of that, and to our knowledge there?s never been any classified information breach,? he told the analysts.

When asked about cyberattacks on the F-35 program, Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman, said, ?I?m not aware of any specific concerns.?
 
====================================
 
In other words; LM were told by GATES that he was ending the program. They have to play ball for contracts with that bozo still in charge, so when he told them "to shut up or else", they shut up.
 
They still have their tame congressmen...............
 
Herald
 
   
 

 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/29/2009 5:47:48 PM


That's all you got? Been caught in your own prevarication and that is your "answer"?

Do better. The next time you try to twist someones' words to score scholastic points instead of to advance a coherent fact based argument I'll remind you that you cannot misrepresent yourself  like that.

As for null content, that about describes half of what you posted on topic including your citations..  

Herald


 

  
-DA

 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/29/2009 5:55:26 PM
Benellim4,

OK, so now it's official that we both disagree on the threats and appropriate numbers of Raptors.  Can you make a case for more is the question? Thus far you haven't other than generalities. Try it...;)

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

benellim4       5/29/2009 6:43:21 PM
OK, so now it's official that we both disagree on the threats and appropriate numbers of Raptors.  Can you make a case for more is the question? Thus far you haven't other than generalities. Try it...;)
 
-First and foremost, we are limited to generalities here because the nature of the information for more, based on threat capabilities, is classified. The USAF has already examined not just the risk today, but the risk in 10 years, 20 years and 30 years based on threat platforms. You won't see that in the press for good reason.
 
There are some common sense things we can talk about.

Attrition. If for no other reason, we need more because we will no doubt need more numbers to keep the ones we have flying. Whether that is from accidents or simply because we will eventually draw the numbers down and use the retired airframes for parts, attrition will mean we will have less F-22s flying in 10 years than we do now.
 
Risk. The F-35 program, while I'm hopeful, still has significant risk attached to it. I think the F-35 will do fine in the air to air role, no F-22, but certainly no slouch either. That means nothing if costs spiral. As the GAO notes the program is entering a very risky stage.  According to the GAO numbers we're looking at a total cost of $300 billion for 2,456 aircraft. That is $122 million a copy. Not too far from the $145 million current cost for the F-22. Now what happens if it hits a snag? What happens if defense suffers from more cuts? What happens if the 2456 number gets reduced? Cost increases

The fact of the matter is SecDef is placing a very large bet on F-35. One that might work, but as the USAF notes, it's a high risk bet. If it doesn't pay off, it will cost lives. Not just lives of Airmen, but lives of Soldiers who depend on the Airmen to keep the skies free of enemy aircraft.
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Beazz       5/29/2009 10:39:30 PM


 


 


I have to think you're practicing willful ignorance. You do realize that Gates forced the nation's highest ranking officers to shut up when it came to the FY10 defense budget, right? A four-star supporting the SECDEF? You don't say, what do you think he was going to do? If you think Moseley was fired just because of the nuclear thing you're sadly mistaken. He was highly critical of SECDEF and his focus on OIF/OEF at the expense of the future (he complained in Feb and was looking for work in Jun).  Don't think that the current CoS doesn't understand that. 





Chastising Rebuke...





No, I don't realize that. This is internet mythology and in no way are you in a position to support such a claim. The SecDef is in charge and leads the DoD. He is the BOSS. If he decides that the DoD needs to go into a particular direction, then that is the way it goes. That's why he is put there. The Generals do not have to agree and they can resign or be fired if there are fundamental differences in the way things should go. I think rather than ignorant, I actually understand how it is supposed to work. The CIVILIAN is in charge for a reason.











  Internet myth huh? Traitor Gates is a plain and simple man without honor and playing politics with the security of this nation. Seems several senators are worried gates has made it to where they feel they may not even get honest testimony themselves from the USAF brass now. I'll post the response I get from my senators and house rep when I get it as well DA. We both know what they are going to say as well don't we? Seems everyone but YOU knows a gag order was issued.  
 
Obama's Partisan Pentagon


Defense Secretary Robert Gates? sweeping gag order prohibiting senior military officers from discussing the 2010 defense budget is raising fears of politicizing the Pentagon.

Six Republican House members wrote to Gates on May 5, saying his requirement that generals, admirals and senior civilians sign a non-disclosure agreement seems so broad the signers may withhold candid testimony on Capitol Hill.

The letter comes amid a disclosure of another apparent politicization of the Pentagon. Senate Armed Services Chairman Carl Levin, (D-Mi), sent a letter to Gates on February 2 asking that the Defense Department Inspector General re-do a January report that cleared the Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon of any wrongdoing in providing briefings some 70 retired military TV analysts. Gates relayed the letter to the acting inspector general, and subsequently the IG report was withdrawn.
 


The gag-order letter, spearheaded by Rep. Randy Forbes (R-Va.), reveals a far-reaching agreement that could affect future testimony, not just 2010 budget deliberations inside the Pentagon. Gates announced his 2010 decisions on April 6, scaling back some of former president George W. Bush's key defense policies.

The gag-order covers information "predecisional or otherwise, concerning the administration's deliberation of the nature and amounts of the president's budget for fiscal 2010, and any supplemental budget request submitted during the current fiscal year." Military sources saying it is the first time -- at least in recent memory -- they recall a defense secretary requiring the Joint Chiefs, service secretaries and senior political appointees to sign a no-talk pledge. Usually, such requirements are done orally via the secretary office, and often ignored.

To Forbes, a House Armed Services member, and five other congressmen, the limits, in effect, censor future testimony.

"Can I expect a candid answer from a senior military official when I ask them about the process used to establish priorities, either now or after the president's detailed budget is released to the public?" the six Republicans asked Gates. "Members of Congress deserve candid answers from senior military officers that are not suppressed or censored -- either directly, or implicitly via culture of regulations that muzzle their independent professional judgment."

Noting Congress' constitutional duty to fund the military, the letter adds, "I am concerned that these restrictions on the deliberation of these tradeoffs are reflected in the president's budget this year and future years severely and unnecessarily limits the Congress in these constitutional duties."

The gag-order has sent a chill through the Pentagon. Some bureaucrats who normally talk to reporters on background, not attribution, responded to questions in recent weeks by saying they had been ordered not to talk.

Gates imposed the order to prevent leaks to the press and Congress, as he, his staff and military leaders negotiated major changes in defense policy, such as: cutting missile defense ground-based interceptors; freezing the F-22 fighter buy at 187; drastically scaling back the Army's battlefield Future Combat System; and retiring 250 Air Force fighters in one year alone.

The Pentagon denies the non-disclosure edict has chilled, or politicized, the building.

"Now that the budget is out, they can talk about anything that's other than security classification or predecisional information," said Robert Hale, the Pentagon's top budget officer.

The term "predecisional" is what rankles some in Congress. At hearings, military witnesses may give short, or incomplete answers, for fear of disclosing a pending decisions and risking Gates' anger.

"Secretary Gates' intention was to prevent leaks so that he could do this holistic rollout that you saw him do on April 6," Vice Adm. Steve Stanley, a budget director for the Joint Chiefs, told reporters. "He really wanted to make sure that he had the ability to put the whole story out before it started getting picked apart because of a specific piece of information leaking."

A chilling effect inside the building?

The service chiefs were part of all these discussions, and none of them are shrinking violets," he said. "They were not intimidated at all."

Bryan Whitman, a senior Pentagon spokesman, told HUMAN EVENTS that the Gates? goal was not to silence debate but to enhance it by stopping piecemeal information from becoming public, thus influencing the internal debate.

"This budget was gong to be one greater than the sum of its parts," he said. "It was important he be able to solicit input from all senior leaders .... their opinions, their unvarnished thoughts on this."

"He was able to bring forward a coherent budget that presented a presented a coherent strategy and that was what we were trying to achieve," he said.

The non-disclosure agreement reads in part, "I recognize that a significant factor in the successful and proper preparation and completion of the President's budget is the strict confidentiality that must be observed by all government participants in the planning, programming, and budgeting process, and that a failure to comply with these confidentiality requirements may compromise the administration's ability to formulate and submit its budget."

New York Times-Driven Do-Over of IG Report?

Then there is the case of Senate Armed Services Chairman Levin, a committed foe of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Levin pushed the Pentagon inspector general to investigate the Rumsfeld Pentagon practice of briefing some 70 retired military analysts who offer opinion/assessments on TV, radio and in print.

His request followed a Pulitzer Prize-winning series in the New York Times that accused the analysts of winning contracts and other improprieties through the contacts made as a result of the Pentagon outreach program.

Rumsfeld?s people denied the charge. One referred to the Times' stories as fiction. In January, the IG come out with a report that exonerated Rumsfeld's men and apparently the military analysts as well. It said it found no evidence that any analysts got contracts for any companies they represented. It also found the program complied with existing laws and regulations.

Levin, who as chairman will have a big say in naming the next IG, was unhappy.

In February, he went directly to Gates. He wrote a letter, first disclosed in The Washington Times, expressing displeasure at the findings. He urged Gates to have the IG office, now run by an acting director, review the report and open up a whole new area of inquiry: the analysts' personal finances.

"While the report finds insufficient evidence to determine that any contractor received a competitive advantage as a result of its ties to retired military analysts, the report fails to assess whether the retired military analysts themselves obtained financial benefits from contractors as a result of their favorable access to DoD information and officials," Levin wrote. "I would appreciate if you would task the inspector general to conduct an additional review and analysis to address these issues."

Gates complied, telling Levin in a March 3 letter, "I have forwarded your concerns to the acting inspector general and asked that he conduct the additional review and analysis that you requested."

Earlier this month, the IG took the extraordinary step of withdrawing the entire report, raising the question of whether Levin and Gates were exercising improper control of the Inspector General, established by law to be entirely independent of political manipulation.

The IG's own written standards contain this admonition:
"The Inspector General and OIG staff must be free both in fact and appearance from personal, external, and organizational impairments to independence.. External impairments to independence occur when the OIG staff is deterred from acting objectively and exercising professional skepticism by pressures, actual or perceived, from management and employees of the reviewed entity or oversight organizations."
"Presumably that includes sitting U.S. senators," an aide to former Secretary Rumsfeld told HUMAN EVENTS.

Taken separately, the gag order and the IG report do-over are troubling at least. Together, they may signal an unprecedented politicization of the Pentagon including the professional military leadership and the independent-by-law inspector general.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/30/2009 1:50:14 AM
The Pentagon denies the non-disclosure edict has chilled, or politicized, the building.

"Now that the budget is out, they can talk about anything that's other than security classification or predecisional information," said Robert Hale, the Pentagon's top budget officer.

The term "predecisional" is what rankles some in Congress. At hearings, military witnesses may give short, or incomplete answers, for fear of disclosing a pending decisions and risking Gates' anger.

"Secretary Gates' intention was to prevent leaks so that he could do this holistic rollout that you saw him do on April 6," Vice Adm. Steve Stanley, a budget director for the Joint Chiefs, told reporters. "He really wanted to make sure that he had the ability to put the whole story out before it started getting picked apart because of a specific piece of information leaking."



Again, don't believe the hype. There is nothing unprecedented about this and it demonstrates that there is a competent thinking 21st-century media savvy Secretary of Defense who actually understands how to effectively make policy. No one was gagged. Like I told you, that was an Internet myth. Anyone that felt they were gagged could come out now and make a case. They have not. If you've ever worked for a large company before or been in the military, secrets like that don't stay that way for very long.


 
-DA 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Take own advice, poster.    5/30/2009 8:47:43 AM






That's all you got? Been caught in your own prevarication and that is your "answer"?




Do better. The next time you try to twist someones' words to score scholastic points instead of to advance a coherent fact based argument I'll remind you that you cannot misrepresent yourself  like that.




As for null content, that about describes half of what you posted on topic including your citations..  




Herald






 



  

-DA




Next post returns to topic
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    About Gates......   5/30/2009 9:53:48 AM
 

What's Brewin': Bob Brewin?s Take on Defense Information Technology

Secretary Gates Muzzles Budgeteers

By Bob Brewin   02/26/09 05:51 pm ET

The $534 billion fiscal 2010 budget for the Defense Department, which the Obama administration released on Thursday, contains few details, particularly on major programs such as the IT-rich $230 billion Army Future Combat Systems project intended to network myriad vehicles and sensors on the battlefield.

Details on funding for FCS -- and what Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell called "every big ticket program with problems" in a press briefing on Feb. 25 -- will be released with the final and full budget in April.

To prevent leaks until then, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates everyone involved in the budget process -- including the Joint Chiefs of Staff -- to sign non-disclosure forms, Morrell said.

The agreement binds everyone involved in the budget process to not leak or speak about the budget publicly so "the process can be as collegial as possible," Morrell said. He added that this is the first time Gates has ever asked top Pentagon uniformed and civilian staffers to sign a nondisclosure agreement and did so partly out of the recognition of the impact that the Defense budget decisions have on contractors and their employees.

The ban on budget leaks - if it holds -also will keep the services from using them to boost support for projects that may be on the cutting block, a practice all three services have used in the past.

I have doubts that everyone can keep their mouth shut until April, particularly if a key multibillion-dollar program is facing the axe. 

And.
 
This is the heart of the matter:
 
 

Geopolitical Weekly: The U.S. Air Force and the Next War

June 11, 2008 | 1706 GMT


Graphic for Geopolitical Intelligence Report

By George Friedman

Related Special Topic Page

U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has fired the secretary of the Air Force and the Air Force chief of staff. The official reason given for the firings was the mishandling of nuclear weapons and equipment related to nuclear weapons, which included allowing an aircraft to fly within the United States with six armed nuclear weapons on board and accidentally shipping nuclear triggers to Taiwan. An investigation conducted by a Navy admiral concluded that Air Force expertise in handling nuclear weapons had declined.

Focusing on Present Conflicts

While Gates insisted that this was the immediate reason for the firings, he has sharply criticized the Air Force for failing to reorient itself to the types of conflict in which the United States is currently engaged. Where the Air Force leadership wanted to focus on deploying a new generation of fighter aircraft, Gates wanted them deploying additional unmanned aircraft able to provide reconnaissance and carry out airstrikes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

These are not trivial issues, but they are the tip of the iceberg in a much more fundamental strategic debate going on in the U.S. defense community. Gates put the issue succinctly when he recently said that ?I have noticed too much of a tendency toward what might be called ?next-war-itis? — the propensity of much of the defense establishment to be in favor of what might be needed in a future conflict.? This is what the firings were about.

Naturally, as soon as the firings were announced, there were people who assumed they occurred because these two were unwilling to go along with plans to bomb Iran. At this point, the urban legend of an imminent war with Iran has permeated the culture. But the Air Force is the one place where calls for an air attack would find little resistance, particularly at the top, because it would give the Air Force the kind of mission it really knows how to do and is good at. The whole issue in these firings is whether what the Air Force is good at is what the United States needs.

There is a neat alignment of the issues involved in the firings. Nuclear arms were the quintessential weapons of the Cold War, the last generation. Predators and similar unmanned aircraft are part of this generation?s warfare. The Air Force sees F-22s and other conventional technology as the key weapons of the next generation. The Air Force leadership, facing decades-long timelines in fielding new weapons systems, feels it must focus on the next war now. Gates, responsible for fighting this generation?s war, sees the Air Force as neglecting current requirements. He also views it as essentially having lost interest and expertise in the last generation?s weapons, which are still important — not to mention extremely dangerous.

Fighting the Last War

The classic charge against generals is that they always want to fight the last war again. In charging the Air Force with wanting to fight the next war now, Gates is saying the Air Force has replaced the old problem with a new one. The Air Force?s view of the situation is that if all resources are poured into fighting this war, the United States will emerge from it unprepared to fight the next war. Underneath this discussion of past and future wars is a more important and defining set of questions. First, can the United States afford to fight this war while simultaneously preparing for the next one? Second, what will the next war look like; will it be different from this one?

There is a school of thought in the military that argues that we have now entered the fourth generation of warfare. The first generation of war, according to this theory, involved columns and lines of troops firing muzzle-loaded weapons in volleys. The second generation consisted of warfare involving indirect fire (artillery) and massed movement, as seen in World War I. Third-generation warfare comprised mobile warfare, focused on outmaneuvering the enemy, penetrating enemy lines and encircling them, as was done with armor during World War II. The first three generations of warfare involved large numbers of troops, equipment and logistics. Large territorial organizations — namely, nation-states — were required to carry them out.

Fourth-generation warfare is warfare carried out by nonstate actors using small, decentralized units and individuals to strike at enemy forces and, more important, create political support among the population. The classic example of fourth-generation warfare would be the intifadas carried out by Palestinians against Israel. They involved everything from rioters throwing rocks to kidnappings to suicide bombings. The Palestinians could not defeat the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), a classic third-generation force, in any conventional sense — but neither could the IDF vanquish the intifadas, since the battlefield was the Palestinians themselves. So long as the Palestinians were prepared to support their fourth-generation warriors, they could extract an ongoing price against Israeli civilians and soldiers. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict thus became one of morale rather than materiel. This was the model, of course, the United States encountered in Iraq.

Fourth-generation warfare has always existed. Imperial Britain faced it in Afghanistan. The United States faced it at the turn of the last century in the Philippines. King David waged fourth-generation warfare in Galilee. It has been a constant mode of warfare. The theorists of fourth-generational warfare are not arguing that the United States will face this type of war along with others, but that going forward, this type of warfare will dominate — that the wars of the future will be fourth-generation wars.

Nation-States and Fourth-Generation Warfare

Implicit in this argument is the view that the nation-state, which has dominated warfare since the invention of firearms, is no longer the primary agent of wars. Each of the previous three generations of warfare required manpower and resources on a very large scale that only a nation-state could provide. Fidel Castro in the Cuban mountains, for example, could not field an armored division, an infantry brigade or a rifle regiment; it took a nation to fight the first three generations of warfare.

The argument now is that nations are not the agents of wars but its victims. Wars will not be fought between nations, but between nations and subnational groups that are decentralized, sparse, dispersed and primarily conducting war to attack their target?s morale. The very size of the forces dispersed by a nation-state makes them vulnerable to subnational groups by providing a target-rich environment. Being sparse and politically capable, the insurgent groups blend into the population and are difficult to ferret out and defeat.

In such a war, the nation-state?s primary mission is to identify the enemy, separate him from the population and destroy him. It is critical to be surgical in attacking the enemy, since the enemy wins whenever an attack by the nation-state hits the noncombatant population, even if its own forces are destroyed — this is political warfare. Therefore, the key to success — if success is possible — is intelligence. It is necessary to know the enemy?s whereabouts, and strike him when he is not near the noncombatant population.

The Air Force and UAVs

In fourth-generation warfare, therefore, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) are one of the keys to defeating the substate actor. They gather intelligence, wait until the target is not surrounded by noncombatants and strike suddenly and without warning. It is the quintessential warfare for a technologically advanced nation fighting a subnational insurgent group embedded in the population. It is not surprising that Gates, charged with prosecuting a fourth-generation war, is furious at the Air Force for focusing on fighter planes when what it needs are more and better UAVs.

The Air Force, which was built around the concept of air superiority and strategic bombing, has a visceral objection to unmanned aircraft. From its inception, the Air Force (and the Army Air Corps before it) argued that modern warfare would be fought between nation-states, and that the defining weapon in this kind of war would be the manned bomber attacking targets with precision. When it became apparent that the manned bomber was highly vulnerable to enemy fighters and anti-aircraft systems, the doctrine was modified with the argument that the Air Force?s task was to establish air superiority using fighter aircraft to sweep the skies of the enemy and strike aircraft to take out anti-aircraft systems — clearing the way for bombers or, later, the attack aircraft.

The response to the Air Force position is that the United States is no longer fighting the first three types of war, and that the only wars the United States will fight now will be fourth-generation wars where command of the air is both a given and irrelevant. The Air Force?s mission would thus be obsolete. Only nation-states have the resources to resist U.S. airpower, and the United States isn?t going to be fighting one of them again.

This should be the key point of contention for the Air Force, which should argue that there is no such thing as fourth-generation warfare. There have always been guerrillas, assassins and other forms of politico-military operatives. With the invention of explosives, they have been able to kill more people than before, but there is nothing new in this. What is called fourth-generation warfare is simply a type of war faced by everyone from Alexander to Hitler. It is just resistance. This has not superseded third-generation warfare; it merely happens to be the type of warfare the United States has faced recently.

Wars between nation-states, such as World War I and World War II, are rare in the sense that the United States fought many more wars like the Huk rising in the Philippines or the Vietnam War in its guerrilla phase than it did world wars. Nevertheless, it was the two world wars that determined the future of the world and threatened fundamental U.S. interests. The United States can lose a dozen Vietnams or Iraqs and not have its interests harmed. But losing a war with a nation-state could be catastrophic.

The Next War vs. the War That Matters

The response to Gates, therefore, is that the Air Force is not preparing for the next war. It is preparing for the war that really matters rather than focusing on an insurgency that ultimately cannot threaten fundamental U.S. interests. Gates, of course, would answer that the Air Force is cavalier with the lives of troops who are fighting the current war as it prepares to fight some notional war. The Air Force would counter that the notional war it is preparing to fight could decide the survival of the United States, while the war being fought by Gates won?t. At this point, the argument would deadlock, and the president and Congress would decide where to place their bets.

But the argument is not quite over at this point. The Air Force?s point about preparing for the decisive wars is, in our mind, well-taken. It is hard for us to accept the idea that the nation-state is helpless in front of determined subnational groups. More important, it is hard for us to accept the idea that international warfare is at an end. There have been long periods in the past of relative tranquility between nation-states — such as, for example, the period between the fall of Napoleon and World War I. Wars between nations were sparse, and the European powers focused on fourth-generational resistance in their colonies. But when war came in 1914, it came with a vengeance.

Our question regards the weapons the Air Force wants to procure. It wants to build the F-22 fighter at enormous cost, which is designed to penetrate enemy airspace, defeat enemy fighter aircraft and deliver ordnance with precision to a particular point on the map. Why would one use a manned aircraft for that mission? The evolution of cruise missiles with greater range and speed permits the delivery of the same ordnance to the same target without having a pilot in the cockpit. Indeed, cruise missiles can engage in evasive maneuvers at g-forces that would kill a pilot. And cruise missiles exist that could serve as unmanned aircraft, flying to the target, releasing submunitions and returning home. The combination of space-based reconnaissance and the unmanned cruise missile — in particular, next-generation systems able to move at hypersonic speeds (in excess of five times the speed of sound) — would appear a much more efficient and effective solution to the problem of the next generation of warfare.

We could argue that both Gates and the Air Force are missing the point. Gates is right that the Air Force should focus on unmanned aircraft; technology has simply moved beyond the piloted aircraft as a model. But this does not mean the Air Force should not be preparing for the next war. Just as the military should have been preparing for the U.S.-jihadist war while also waging the Cold War, so too, the military should be preparing for the next conflict while fighting this war. For a country that spends as much time in wars as the United States (about 17 percent of the 20th century in major wars, almost all of the 21st century), Gates? wish to focus so narrowly on this war seems reckless.

At the same time, building a new and fiendishly expensive version of the last generation?s weapons does not necessarily constitute preparing for the next war. The Air Force was built around the piloted combat aircraft. The Navy was built around sailing ships. Those who flew and those who sailed were necessary and courageous. But sailing ships don?t fit into the modern fleet, and it is not clear to us that manned aircraft will fit into high-intensity peer conflict in the future.

We do not agree that preparing for the next war is pathological. We should always be fighting this war and preparing for the next. But we don?t believe the Air Force is preparing for the next war. There will be wars between nations, fought with all the chips on the table. Gates is right that the Air Force should focus on unmanned aircraft. But not because of this war alone.

 ============================================
 
The problem  as I've tried to explain is that the autonomous artilects are not yet smart enough to do what men can do in split seconds, and tele-operation telemetry is TOO VULNERABLE to things I can figure out to do to it to risk the nation on a robot air force.
 
Satellites are the key to robot warfare. These can be blanked or splashed.
 
 
 
Once that happens you are limited to the curvature of the Earth and that restricts you to LoS. Once again, that telemetry and tele-operation can be degraded. Its called jamming.
 
 
You need tha MAN and you need the PLANE until we solve the hypersonics, artilect, and the EW issues.
 
That is what the amateurs (including Gates) don't understand.
 
Almost eighty percent of the modern battle is EW. Even in so called 4th generation warfare, the battle is mostly electronic and fought in air, space, and along the communications grids.
 
 
As we are fighting and LOSING it now.
 
 
Whoa! You can't be saying that the F-22 can shut down cyberwarfare and win an EW war. No it can't. But it can do something that a suddenly blind and useless out of control UAV cannot. It can fly fast enough and fight high very well enough to control the air during the period of maxumum danger to us when we are reduced to WW II type means of command and control because our enemies (notice the multiples as in more than two?) finally decide its time to rearrange the world to suit themselves through kinetics. because it has the energy advantage and it has a man in it, it will work even off platform electronically blind.
 
Its only a very small part of the fallback default when things go blank and we have to get something aloft to cover the battlespace-but its there in the toolbox. I want enough of them to do the job until we can restore our EW presence during the danger period.
 
183 is NOT enough.     
 
Herald
 

 
 
Lose that battle and you are reduced to infantry. All the UAVs in the world won't help you then.  
   
 
 


 
 
Quote    Reply

Beazz       5/30/2009 10:44:26 AM

The Pentagon denies the non-disclosure edict has chilled, or politicized, the building.



"Now that the budget is out, they can talk about anything that's other than security classification or predecisional information," said Robert Hale, the Pentagon's top budget officer.



The term "predecisional" is what rankles some in Congress. At hearings, military witnesses may give short, or incomplete answers, for fear of disclosing a pending decisions and risking Gates' anger.



"Secretary Gates' intention was to prevent leaks so that he could do this holistic rollout that you saw him do on April 6," Vice Adm. Steve Stanley, a budget director for the Joint Chiefs, told reporters. "He really wanted to make sure that he had the ability to put the whole story out before it started getting picked apart because of a specific piece of information leaking."










Again, don't believe the hype. There is nothing unprecedented about this and it demonstrates that there is a competent thinking 21st-century media savvy Secretary of Defense who actually understands how to effectively make policy. No one was gagged. Like I told you, that was an Internet myth. Anyone that felt they were gagged could come out now and make a case. They have not. If you've ever worked for a large company before or been in the military, secrets like that don't stay that way for very long.







 

-DA 

 



Unbelieveable!! I knew you would spin this, but wow!! DA, something that has never been done before is by anyones definition, except yours apparently, *unprecidented*. Gates has shown again he is nothing more then a yes man. Withdrawing the report in question because that Danny Devito wanna be Carl Levin ask him to, shows it. The quotes by US senators clearly shows that some are quiet concerned about what this is going to do to future testimony they may require. That non disclosure letter Gates *made* them sign goes well beyond just the last budget. It applys to ALL things in the future that Gates may not have already *disclosed*. IOW, if congress calls generals in for a Q&A and ask them about a pending DoD policy descision that Gates has not made official yet, they fear they will NOT get factual information because they have been forbidden to talk about it by their Boss. That fear is well founded, as all those generals know full well what happens to those in their position when they do not support their boss's position. That's a matter of record and fact regardless wether or not you wish to admit it. It also does not take a rocket scientists to see the statement you seem to think sets them free to now talk about whatever they wish is not that at all. You know full well DA that *security classification* is an extremely far reaching and all encompassing phrase. Numbers of USAF aircraft can easily be thrown into that area and you know it. So do the generals who wish to keep their jobs.
 
I still am curious to see what my own state senators and reps response to my inquiry will be. Cant wait to get it and watch you tap dance around it trying to not openly call a US senator a liar or idiot and still support your SoD.
 
Have a nice day,
Beazz
 
Quote    Reply
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2010StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy