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Subject: B-1R Thoughts and comments...
DarthAmerica    5/13/2009 4:09:14 AM
...just for fun I thought I'd bring this up with the soon to come debate over a new bomber.
 
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SpudmanWP       5/14/2009 5:56:31 PM

Herald,

            Don?t misunderstand.. I think that Raytheon has done a GREAT job with it?s missiles.

I just think they got screwed over by Hughes in the AIM-152 deal. Their missile was too large and relied on too many risky technologies. Besides, it could only carry one per pylon.

I think they should partner with GD and bring GD?s AIM-152 proposal into the JDRADM program. The only tech on GD?s proposal that has any risk is the restartable motor. All the other technologies that differentiate it from the Hughes missile are proven in the ?Standard? missile family, ie TVC boosters, folding fins, and thin body strakes.

I think one of the reasons that the Meteor has taken soo long to get to IOC is because it?s motor is completely new to the A2A arena.

 
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Herald12345       5/14/2009 6:45:36 PM

Herald,


            Don?t misunderstand.. I think that Raytheon has done a GREAT job with it?s missiles.


I just think they got screwed over by Hughes in the AIM-152 deal. Their missile was too large and relied on too many risky technologies. Besides, it could only carry one per pylon.


The GD missile relied on the segmented burn candle rocket motor or what is called the multiple pulse rocket motor. You described a two segment candle, which used a dual burn first segment, and then just either lobbed or coasted  after burnout  until a proximity  fuse or active return alert from the seeker would ignite the endgame pulse segment for that chase/endgame. That works if you can get the stupid thing to even ignite. GD didn't have much success. Neither do the PRCs with their current PL=12 which uses that technology (stolen of course).
 
I think they should partner with GD and bring GD?s AIM-152 proposal into the JDRADM program. The only tech on GD?s proposal that has any risk is the restartable motor. All the other technologies that differentiate it from the Hughes missile are proven in the ?Standard? missile family, ie TVC boosters, folding fins, and thin body strakes.

 One proposed Raytheon missile motor was bigger because it offered more burn seconds and it had to carry a gas cartridge oxidizer and throatable valve. (Hybrid). It was  actually longer ranged (much longer ranged)

Both would work.
I think one of the reasons that the Meteor has taken soo long to get to IOC is because it?s motor is completely new to the A2A arena.
 
That one is a radar/missile and POLITICAL integration problem. Dassault Electronique got into a pi--ssing contest with Marconi and screwed up the "improved" MICA style seeker again. Siemens and BAE are trying to fix it.   

 
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RockyMTNClimber    Gilded Long Bows   5/14/2009 7:04:46 PM
 
I really do not like the idea of using a B-1 or a B-2 as the launch platform. The B-2 or any next generation heavy bomber will be a very expensive asset to use for Sukoi plinking. Lets use legacy aircraft as the spear carriers. Their lack of stealth will turn them into bait drawing the enemy into the fight. The bad guys will be looking at the F-15s because that is all they can see, making the F-22/F-35 mission more productive.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       5/14/2009 7:29:10 PM

 

I really do not like the idea of using a B-1 or a B-2 as the launch platform. The B-2 or any next generation heavy bomber will be a very expensive asset to use for Sukoi plinking. Lets use legacy aircraft as the spear carriers. Their lack of stealth will turn them into bait drawing the enemy into the fight. The bad guys will be looking at the F-15s because that is all they can see, making the F-22/F-35 mission more productive.

Check Six
Rocky

  
You are probably right Rocky in this regard. I think the bomber has appeal because of it's speed(B-1B/R), endurance and range.  I think its a potent idea, but not the best or most forward thinking. And the bombers certainly are high demand assets. Not to mention the burden of 8 hour + missions. To me, and no one else has to agree as this is an opinion. I think it would be better if we coulf put an AAM or JDRADM HALE up there as the spear thrower. It could stay much longer than a manned platform and provide other uses such as ISR and or time critical strike on targets of opportunity. Just a few of these, 12-24 could provide near continuous coverage over a very large area working in shifts and if autonomous air to air refueling and rearmament are worked out this would be a very powerful capability.
 Just a few could have duplicated the effort of OSW SEAD and OCA/DCA and drastically reduced the burden on cargo and tanker aircraft. I'd love to have a peak into what we spend 50+ billion in classified R&D on.
 
-DA


 
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WarNerd       5/15/2009 3:57:46 AM

Need to put an active DP seeker into it and miniaturize the telemetry setup so that we can use satellite link tele-command.. 

Can you say to the limits of the flyout? (400+kilometers)

You want the SM-6, it is the Standard Missile with more range and the seeker off the AIM-120.  It is designed for intercepts beyond the range of the ships radar and has a telemetry link back to confirm target interception.
 
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SpudmanWP       5/15/2009 11:27:44 AM

Herald:
The GD missile relied on the segmented burn candle rocket motor or what is called the multiple pulse rocket motor. You described a two segment candle, which used a dual burn first segment, and then just either lobbed or coasted  after burnout  until a proximity  fuse or active return alert from the seeker would ignite the endgame pulse segment for that chase/endgame. That works if you can get the stupid thing to even ignite. GD didn't have much success. Neither do the PRCs with their current PL=12 which uses that technology (stolen of course).

GD had problems? Sources?

How difficult can it be to start a motor?  It?s not like it?s rocket science.  Sorry, I had to do that

PL-12 = Restartable motor? Sources?

Herald: 
One proposed Raytheon missile motor was bigger because it offered more burn seconds and it had to carry a gas cartridge oxidizer and throatable valve. (Hybrid). It was  actually longer ranged (much longer ranged)

Violates the KISS principle.
 
Besides, the main reason I like the GD version is that if the F-22 loaded a Meteor, they it could only put 2 per bay due to the increased space taken by the ramjet intakes.
 
The folding fin GD 8 inch missile would enable 8, YES EIGHT, missiles PER BAY.  Also, if they went with a shorter booster, then they could load 4, YES FOUR, per cheek bay.
 
That is a total of 24, YES TWENTY FOUR, internal missiles per F-22.
 
Here arr some other ideas:
1.  Add bigger booster and hang them under the wings as ultra long-range AWACS killers.
2.  You can put 4 (without boosters) in a SM-6.... Swarmed attack, let's see a DIRCM stop that
3.  Put 20 + (without boosters) in an ATACMS... Ultra Swarmed attack against multiple inbound threats, swarmed Cruise missiles, etc.
4.  Use them (without boosters) in a NETFIRES module as an anti-uav system
 
 
 
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Herald12345    Spudman   5/15/2009 12:14:07 PM
The plug between the candle segments has to burn through and tends to act as a DETONATOR if it burns through wrong..
 
PL-12: CREF: Aviation Week and Space Technology May7/14, 2007 p40-41
 
Herald.
 
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Spritie       5/15/2009 1:01:09 PM

In a hypothetical way, it is a pretty cool idea.  Specifically, I've always been an advocate for the F-22 as a force multiplier in the sense that even unarmed it can target for other platforms, as it does in the video.  A B-1R type platform would work well with that, though I think you would need something even longer ranged than an AIM-120D to really take advantage of it.


 

There's no way the Air Force is going to buy more B-1s of any type, but I expect we could see something similar to this in the future involving the next generation bomber employing JDRADMs this way.
 

The B-1R is an upgrade to existing B1-Bs not additional aircraft. If this plan comes to fruition, the B1's will need there structural integrity improved to accommodate the more powerful engines and to fly at speeds greater then it was designed to do. Nice windfall for Boeing.






 
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SpudmanWP       5/15/2009 1:07:07 PM

The plug between the candle segments has to burn through and tends to act as a DETONATOR if it burns through wrong..

PL-12: CREF: Aviation Week and Space Technology May7/14, 2007 p40-41
 
Weblink Please....

Herald.
 
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Herald12345       5/15/2009 2:08:24 PM
Second Source....



The plug between the candle segments has to burn through and tends to act as a DETONATOR if it burns through wrong..



PL-12: CREF: Aviation Week and Space Technology May7/14, 2007 p40-41

 

Weblink Please....




Herald.



 
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