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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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french stratege       5/10/2009 8:39:40 PM
"Why would you doubt that? An F-35 will be more likely to detect its targets before Rafale."
Don't see the evidence compared to rafale F3+
AESA, OSF, interferometric ESM suit, networking.Both have that.
Maybe F35 has an edge but it is unproven.
 
 An F-35 would be more likely to evade detection as well. The F-35's avionics are generations ahead and include EA options the Rafale cannot have.
Please ! For the génération ahead it is laughable considering that US is few years in average only vs France.
About EA:
EA F35 variant is proposed as well one for Rafale (with carbon pod and also other features)
On standard version Rafale has Spectra and F35 its X band radar.But AESA rafale could maybe jam as well.
Well, we are not speaking about standard platform.
AT least I have absolutely no doubt for current Rafale F3+ that it will match at least export version of F35 which do not have active ECM.In fact I'm even convinced it can do better.
Vs US version it is not sure.
Main advantage of F35 is full stealth attack with standard and cheap bombs.A capability Rafale does not have.
 
 F-35's will have higher sortie rates and in WVR combat bring HMS to the fight.
higher sortie rates ? I don't think so.Similar probably.
An HMS is also proposed on Rafale but HMS main use is for A to ground today like for F35.
HMS is of marginal need for AtoA when you have an AESA and an OSF.For F22 USAF postponed it for the same reason.
Remember that F35 IOC is for 2011.
 
 F-35 also has DAS which gives 360 degree EO targeting capability.
On limited range except on front.A "nice to have" I agree.
Rafale have an OSF also with a wide angle.Probably evolved Rafale will have similar capabilities.
 
 FS you cannot make the Rafale more than it is out of national pride. The only thing the Rafale has as an advantage is that the top speed is marginally higher on paper. By every other measure the F-35 meets or drastically exceeds the Rafale in air to air combat.
No Rafale has a much better TW ratio especially with a 9 tons engine and a lower drag for supersonic speed and a lower wing load. 18 tons for 9,4 empty vs 18 tons for 13 tons empty.It is a huge difference.
I doubt of supersonic or altitude F35 abilities.Sorry.

The Rafale is a nice plane but its hard to get Frenchmen to discuss it objectively. It's like you guys are always padding the data just a bit.
Like to have US people to speak to it objectively or about F35 or F22.
My personal level of information which does not come from an amateur forum, convinced me that Rafale F3+ is much better than I thought several years ago.
It seems Dutch tought the same than me.
 
I do not say that rafale F3+ is a better plane than F35 but surely a contender in the same way F1E was a contender for F16 A in 1973.

 
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benellim4       5/10/2009 9:21:11 PM
I'll say it again, its flaw is its price.

If I want a land-based 4th generation fighter, I'll go with something like the F-16 Block 50 or 60 or a version of the Strike Eagle for a bit more money. I can get an AESA radar now. I can get a whole bunch of weapons the USAF already paid to integrate, and I can get it cheaper than the French offering. If I don't trust the Americans, I can get the Su-27 series for even cheaper.

If I need a carrier-based plane based on the American/French style, the F/A-18C and F/A-18E/F are already there. Again, I can get things like AESA cheaper than the French aircraft. I can take advantage of a whole bunch of weapons the USN already paid to integrate.
 
If I need a smaller carrier plane, the Russians offer the Mig-29K for a lot cheaper.
 
There is simply nothing to make the Rafael standout against the competition, except its price. Even if it is/was more capable, the price makes the cost-benefit ratio tilt too much towards the cost.
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       5/10/2009 10:18:48 PM

Let see in the future gf0012

You are right that a third rate air force means few for quality

Let see if Switzerland or Brasil retain it.Or UAE, since UAE order also US planes like F16E.

 happy to wait.  I guess I'm a bit over the issue of some arguing technical issues when they don't get the basics right.  I'm not into arguing just for the sake of arguing.  It's a pointless exercise. :)


I'm not a fan boy.
and I must say, your approach to engagement is very different from 12 months ago. (as is mine I suspect)

I sustain Rafale for the exact same reason you defended Australian subs.

I usually get into trouble by the swedes as they think I'm swede bashing. (I'm not, it always gets down to business and engineering for me).  But, I also have no difficulty into criticising my govt or ASC for their input into a project that could have been done a whole lot better. The irony being that if the americans hadn't stepped up to the plate, then we'd still be rooted in a number of areas.  unfort, the americans rarely get credit for helping out (and ditto for fixing the astutes).  I'm big on making sure people get credit where its due. I don't defend Collins because they're australian though. (at all)

At the end we designed and built Rafale for ourselves first.It will be the backbone of our airforce and until now, French air force is not a second rate one.
 
exactly, and it's a fine aircraft, but like some of the swedes who see a need to over promote Kockums and SAAB, I have some difficulty in some of the silliness thats claimed about Rafale.  (I have the same problem with another poster who is claiming that the Sth Koreans developed pixie dust to turn their platforms into LO "flugwagens" and can't draw a distinction between IP, technology transfer rights, and ITARs issues.  Academically and dispationately I don't care whether they have or not.  
 
At least some people here may have understood what is the concept behind Rafale and that its survivability concept is a mile ahead versus previous génération like M2000 or F16.

 and in principle, I don't disagree. Development and delivery is always based around how best to deliver destruction, deterrence etc wrapped around doctrine.  The Rafale was never going to be an F-16.  But the F-16 Block 60 of today is almost unrecognisable from an F16B


 
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Herald12345    Sorry: but you are wrong.   5/10/2009 10:25:54 PM




"Weak thrust output jet engines that burn out before they were expected too was a complete surprise to me a couple of years ago as I thoight the SNECMA part of the Dassault thieves brigade was actually fairly competent (they make good business jet engines). "



This is one of the most odd things about the Rafale.  I can only assume that SNECMA somehow tried to go cheap with the M88, because a reliable, long-lasting jet engine is a basic feature on any western design at this point.  If you want engines that need to be inspected every few hundred flight hours and rebuilt over and over again, buy a Russian or Chinese plane.






  M88 High pressure turbine have three time the TBO of EJ200.

 
  You're referring to the E1 which have been replaced by the E4 since 2004 and even so are mistaking issues between them.

  For the rest it is a question of budget and part availability resulting from it, NOT an issue with the engine itself.

  All in all your comments shows the greatest level of lack of information we have seen for a very long time, none of them can sustain close scrutiny, please would you be kind eough as to back up your allegations with proper links to authoritative sources?
 
  For example you totaly ignore the reality of Rafale design requierements, goals, as well as the actual roadmap and its true level of technologies and developement potential.

   Because the most serious magaZines over here are visibly disaggreing with you in all aspect and sources are LEGION to prove your claims to be all wrong.

  It looks to me as you have embarked in a personal vandetta against the aircraft but failed to inform yourself the slightest before doing so and it shows big time.

  Thanks for the links (to be posted soon i hope and not from another blog please!) we are all very interested.

  Regards, PlG

 

Sorry, but I can LOOK at a rocket and see the design defects. I don't suppose you know about lift aspects and control methods chosen as per inertia unloading over velocity? The MICA is too big and FAT for a snap turn missile that loses velocity rapidly (drag). It maneuvers in the end game like a fat turkey. The RH seeker version uses an active radar that is myopic and has tunnel vision. Too far off boresight or center of FoV and the signal drops out. Updating antenna is masked by strakes. You want me to continue? 
 
What magazines do you read?
 
Unless SNECMA developed a better micro-crystal blade casting process, they still have to tell the Rafale drivers to limit peak core temperature operating minutes. That engine still cannot perform to book specs. Its supposed to be a MILITARY jet engine. It already runs very hot because of the small diameter combustion pot (bungled design)  There isn't much you can do about that, except quality control what you have and tweak the spool spacings somewhat. Teardown and subassembly replacement MTBPF is still very short. PHYSICS.
 
No vendetta. I have very sour things to say about the Eagle, the F-22, and the Sparky. Bias is NOT one of my failings.  
 
Herald   

 
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/11/2009 2:28:32 AM










"Weak thrust output jet engines that burn out before they were expected too was a complete surprise to me a couple of years ago as I thoight the SNECMA part of the Dassault thieves brigade was actually fairly competent (they make good business jet engines). "








This is one of the most odd things about the Rafale.  I can only assume that SNECMA somehow tried to go cheap with the M88, because a reliable, long-lasting jet engine is a basic feature on any western design at this point.  If you want engines that need to be inspected every few hundred flight hours and rebuilt over and over again, buy a Russian or Chinese plane.















  M88 High pressure turbine have three time the TBO of EJ200.



 

  You're referring to the E1 which have been replaced by the E4 since 2004 and even so are mistaking issues between them.



  For the rest it is a question of budget and part availability resulting from it, NOT an issue with the engine itself.



  All in all your comments shows the greatest level of lack of information we have seen for a very long time, none of them can sustain close scrutiny, please would you be kind eough as to back up your allegations with proper links to authoritative sources?

 


  For example you totaly ignore the reality of Rafale design requierements, goals, as well as the actual roadmap and its true level of technologies and developement potential.



   Because the most serious magaZines over here are visibly disaggreing with you in all aspect and sources are LEGION to prove your claims to be all wrong.



  It looks to me as you have embarked in a personal vandetta against the aircraft but failed to inform yourself the slightest before doing so and it shows big time.



  Thanks for the links (to be posted soon i hope and not from another blog please!) we are all very interested.



  Regards, PlG



 






Sorry, but I can LOOK at a rocket and see the design defects. I don't suppose you know about lift aspects and control methods chosen as per inertia unloading over velocity? The MICA is too big and FAT for a snap turn missile that loses velocity rapidly (drag). It maneuvers in the end game like a fat turkey. The RH seeker version uses an active radar that is myopic and has tunnel vision. Too far off boresight or center of FoV and the signal drops out. Updating antenna is masked by strakes. You want me to continue? 


 

What magazines do you read?

 

Unless SNECMA developed a better micro-crystal blade casting process, they still have to tell the Rafale drivers to limit peak core temperature operating minutes. That engine still cannot perform to book specs. Its supposed to be a MILITARY jet engine. It already runs very hot because of the small diameter combustion pot (bungled design)  There isn't much you can do about that, except quality control what you have and tweak the spool spacings somewhat. Teardown and subassembly replacement MTBPF is still very short. PHYSICS.


 

No vendetta. I have very sour things to say about the Eagle, the F-22, and the Sparky. Bias is NOT one of my failings.  


 

Herald   





 
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gf0012-aust       5/11/2009 3:05:53 AM
Pierrre Le Petit

Well, now that you have abandoned the fight let me point again something patently obvious.

For all your bluff and techno babble - not one. not one scintilla of a sale to any Tier 1 force, to any Tier 2 Force and to any Tier 3 Force even with the French President trying the personal approach and giving a shopping bag of goodies to any potential buyer.

9 air forces have already spoken.

zero, zip, zilch, nada.  not one bite from a major airforce anywhere in the world.  no doubt we will now see the Brazilians elevated to the status of a premier  fighting force in the vain hope that it will add credibility to a sale.

you're another teenage wannabe. :)  

it only counts when the rubber hits the road.  everything else is just babble.  
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/11/2009 3:13:16 AM

Pierrre Le Petit




Well, now that you have abandoned the fight let me point again something patently obvious.




For all your bluff and techno babble - not one. not one scintilla of a sale to any Tier 1 force, to any Tier 2 Force and to any Tier 3 Force even with the French President trying the personal approach and giving a shopping bag of goodies to any potential buyer.




9 air forces have already spoken.




zero, zip, zilch, nada.  not one bite from a major airforce anywhere in the world.  no doubt we will now see the Brazilians elevated to the status of a premier  fighting force in the vain hope that it will add credibility to a sale.




you're another teenage wannabe. :)  




it only counts when the rubber hits the road.  everything else is just babble.  

everything else is just babble.  
 
  You're damned right; expecialy your insistance into pretending that sales are a criteria for superiority, ask the Russians they are laughing at you, they have several best sellers under their belts...
 
  This argument is yet another flamer's classic expecialy these days.
 
  So when you're finished demonstrating this point and the very FACT that mine still stands and that not one of you have ever demonstrated anything remotly technical, you come back with more low flying jokes...
 
  PS:  De grace, keep your familiarities for yourself, your posts are already lacking enough...
 
  Regards, PlG

 
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Spritie    Rafale   5/11/2009 5:59:11 PM

These discussions about the Rafale wouldn?t be happing if the French hadn?t decided to opt out of the European consortium and go it alone back in the mid 80?s. If the French had stayed in the consortium, they would have gotten an aircraft that was mostly what they wanted and needed and a nice chunk of the manufacturing and export sales.  

            It?s ironic that the Rafale is built to 100% French needs and is for sale but no buyers and the Raptor is built to 100% American needs and is not for sale, but does have buyers!

 
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gf0012-aust       5/11/2009 6:03:14 PM


You're damned right; expecialy your insistance into pretending that sales are a criteria for superiority, ask the Russians they are laughing at you, they have several best sellers under their belts...

This argument is yet another flamer's classic expecialy these days.

So when you're finished demonstrating this point and the very FACT that mine still stands and that not one of you have ever demonstrated anything remotly technical, you come back with more low flying jokes...

PS:  De grace, keep your familiarities for yourself, your posts are already lacking enough...

Regards, PlG



ah, the simpletons response.

of course, sales is important because sales don't occur within professional airforces without some degree of expertise and  analysis.

countries don't buy aircraft on a whim like some aviation truffle expedition.  there is rigour and analysis.  your attempt to dumb this down into sales as its most simplistic level, and your continued focus on the platform as opposed to countries looking at systems shows the shallowness of your own debate.

you're the typical teenage fan clubber coming in here and looking at spec sheets as though they're the grail in the debate.

of course, I expect you new response will be that none have bought it due to some latent anti-french mindset, or worse, that the americans have politically out manouvred the french  and bough pressure to bear.  of course that would be the easy response - and unsurprisingly has been used in here before.

of course none of the airforces and countriesd which have rejected Rafale did any serious analysis.  It was also based on personal feelings rather than an evaluation on technical competency and capability fit..

/sarcasm off

 
 
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Das Kardinal       5/11/2009 6:35:37 PM
One thing that isn't wrong with Rafale, is its ability to generate more forum traffic than any other plane out there 
 Three Rafale threads in SP's "hot topics".

While there's a lot of contradictory noise  about radars, Spectra, Mica and what not, apparently nobody's contesting Rafale's aerodynamic qualities and its FBW system ?
 
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