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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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benellim4       5/26/2009 1:49:55 PM
Spudman, I think those are AIM-7s not AGM-88s. It doesn't look like the front fins have the "crank" the AGM-88s have.
 
Still, that's a boatload of missiles.
 
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DarthAmerica       5/26/2009 1:55:42 PM

Spudman, I think those are AIM-7s not AGM-88s. It doesn't look like the front fins have the "crank" the AGM-88s have.

 

Still, that's a boatload of missiles.


That plane can make a double ACE in one sortie!

-DA 
 
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Herald12345    Agreed.   5/26/2009 2:41:12 PM

Spudman, I think those are AIM-7s not AGM-88s. It doesn't look like the front fins have the "crank" the AGM-88s have.

 

Still, that's a boatload of missiles.

HARM compared to SPARROW is huge.
 
Herald
 
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Rufus       5/26/2009 2:43:45 PM
"As to the F-35... at IOC the F-35 will be able to carry 4 AIM-120Ds internally, 8 external AIM-120Ds and 2 AIM-9Xs... at full fuel load.
 
I know that many will scream "but it's not VLO with external AAMs", but it is still several orders of magnitude below any 4th gen with the equivilant external load."
 
This is one of the reasons it is so silly to try to compare the F-35 to 4th generation aircraft.  The F-35 gives you the option of a highly stealthy aircraft when you need that capability, but also gives you the flexibility and payload of a 4th generation aircraft when that is what you need.  Even flying with a bunch of external missiles the F-35 still has large advantages over 4th generation aircraft. 
 
Since this is a thread about the Rafale I will use it as the comparison point:
 
An F-35 carrying 10-12 AAMs will have a significantly smaller RCS than a Rafale with a similar load, a larger, longer ranged and far more advanced radar, a far more advanced EW system and self protection jammer, a far better EO/IR sensor suite, far better sensor fusion and interfaces, the world's most advanced helmet mounted sight, etc
 
Really there is no comparison between the two.  The F-35 will have all of the above advantages, combined with a fuel capacity the Rafale would have to resort to a raft of performance limiting drop-tanks to match. 
 
If you try to compare the two aircraft in missions that would allow the F-35 to carry its weapons internally the gap between the two is even larger.  (The F-35 is capable of carrying 6 or possibly 8 AAMs internally, but this is not part of the initial roll-out.)  The Rafale will be forced to carry external weapons to accomplish its mission, an external targetting pod, and external fuel tanks if it is going more than a short distance. 
 
The F-35 will be aerodynamically clean and highly stealthy.  It will not be G-limited or speed limited by its external stores and it will be far more efficient in flight.  In short, something very similar to its maximum performance specs will apply while the Rafale will be unable to come close to its advertised maximum performance with a combat loadout. 
 
An F-35 with two 2000lb class weapons and two AAMs is going to be far faster and more maneuverable than a Rafale with the same four weapons, a targetting pod, and the three drop tanks it would need to match the F-35's fuel capacity. Not only that, but the F-35 will of course be highly stealthy while the Rafale will be anything but.  If you are willing to compromise slightly on your RCS you can still put a couple AAMs out on the F-35s wings with LO pylons as the UK anticipates doing with ASRAAMs.  Your RCS will be larger, but still a tiny fraction of the Rafale's.
 
The F-35 is about real world performance, not advertised maximum specs that don't apply to real world operations.  Nobody cares which plane is faster or more maneuverable flying clean.  What matters is which plane offers better performance carrying a combat load.  
 
 
 
 
 
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SpudmanWP       5/26/2009 2:51:46 PM
My bad for not zooming in to verify...
 
Why would a SH have BOTH AIM-120s and AIM-7s?
 
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Phaid       5/26/2009 4:20:20 PM

My bad for not zooming in to verify...

Why would a SH have BOTH AIM-120s and AIM-7s?

For CAP against bombers or MPAs AIM-7s are adequate, and there are still a lot of them in the inventory.
 
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warpig    Bump   4/1/2010 2:48:45 PM
There's no way I'm letting this thread disappear.  It's much too entertaining to let that happen.
 
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sentinel28a       4/1/2010 2:50:30 PM
Eh, Sysops banned our French fanboys.  It's not as fun anymore without them claiming that if the Rafale could cook, they'd marry it.  (Actually, they probably would've claimed it could cook, too.)
 
 
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Das Kardinal       4/3/2010 4:40:11 AM
Quote : An F-35 carrying 10-12 AAMs will have a significantly smaller RCS than a Rafale with a similar load, a larger, longer ranged and far more advanced radar, a far more advanced EW system and self protection jammer, a far better EO/IR sensor suite, far better sensor fusion and interfaces, the world's most advanced helmet mounted sight, etc 
 
Not gonna argue with the superior (actually, inferior) RCS, larger radar (and probably more advanced by virtue of more experience with AESAs), and I really like DAS too (with the helmet sight it's the F35 feature I find the most exciting and innovative). 
How far more advanced EW and self-protection jammer compared to Spectra (which is undergoing continuous updating) and sensor fusion, well, I'm more skeptical. The EW side is too hush-hush IMHO to state a superior performance so certainly (especially since the F35 side is still, well... prototype-y), and to date everyone who had the opportunity to handle it, stated that Rafale has excellent sensor fusion and MMI. Maybe the F35 will do better, but I'm reserving my judgment on this. 

To get back on topic, a piece of Rafale news : 

 

And the most recent scuttlebutt from Air&Cosmos (copy-pasted from MP.net post by Arthuro, just because I'm lazy) :
Quite some news in A&Cosmos today...

A "stealth rafale demonstartor" will be funded (according to the very official 2010 french defense budget) to increase its stealth capabilites. According to air&Cosmos the solution that will be adopted is active stealth and will be developed by the CEA and the DGA. This capability should be operational with the 5th batch of the rafale program and is independent to other spectra developments. They also mention other techniques but unspecified. I'll try to scan the article this week end.

 Woot, active stealth raises its head again ! More forum fun in perspective. 
Whatever, good to see that future improvements are considered, and funded.

 
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Hamilcar       4/3/2010 5:45:10 AM
I think a lot of fanboy ballywho and nonsense could have solved and a lot of Dassault blowback avouded in the markweting if the correct terms for signal management had been used.
 
The Rafale could stand some good news-especially as it does need the very things you published as intended.
 
Can a shaping and aeroshell cleanup occur that produces a better passive signal managed object in radio and heat? Yes. Will it affect maneuverability and loft? Unfortunately yes.
 
Can the self protection system of deceptive signal propagators and active countermeasures be improved to break enemy air to air tracking and enemy terminal engagement missile radars? DEFINTELY.    
 
Can the RBE2 be fixed? The French are doing that at last with an AESA front end add on. 
 
There is nothing wrong with the air to ground weaponry.
 
Air to air weaponry? Still a big bolo. MICA IR works at last, but the RH is hopeless. The French will use METEOR as their RH as soon as the British/Dutch fix the seeker and the telemetry link. The British had almost given up on it, its so bad, so they called in help. They had good experience with Siemens. Maybe THEY can fix it.
 
H.
 
   
 
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