The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 24, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33   NEXT
DarthAmerica       5/24/2009 7:24:00 PM

I knew that you would come up with this picture DA , I was waiting for it .

How many Meteor missiles can the SH use ? Do you have any missile of this kind planned for 2012 ?

Cheers .


Yes but quite obviously you don't understand why I posted it along with the Flanker. All modern fighters can carry many missiles BW. That's not a big deal anymore. Except maybe that all other planes except the Rafale have actually done it! With regard to METEOR, have you not heard of the AIM-120D and JDRADM. The point of my post is not some fanboy show and tell slideshow. It's to show you that there is very little about the Rafale that would be considered unique.

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 7:24:14 PM
Nice pics DA , I did not know the last one .
 
To be honest , I don 't think a SU-35 would have the edge BVR against a SH . I don 't want to go into details (radar , RCS , ECM , Missiles , IRST , etc) but I would rather be in the SH pit , no doubt .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 7:30:30 PM
I can 't believe what I 've just said in my last post :
""I don 't think a SU-35 would have the edge BVR against a SH""
 
The SU-35 beats HANDS DOWN the SH in aerodynamics and thrust ratio , but the SH still has the edge BVR I believe . I don 't know why , it is just a gut feeling ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 7:46:03 PM
DA :
""With regard to METEOR, have you not heard of the AIM-120D and JDRADM""
 
Of course I did . But until I see them flying in operation , Meteor will be around .
Btw , did you know THIS one DA :
 
h*tp://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8259/16289980.png
 
4 Meteors , 4 Micas and three external fuel tanks . Check the BVR/WVR power and the range ...

Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/24/2009 7:51:12 PM

DA :

""With regard to METEOR, have you not heard of the AIM-120D and JDRADM""

Of course I did . But until I see them flying in operation , Meteor will be around .
Btw , did you know THIS one DA :

h*tp://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8259/16289980.png

4 Meteors , 4 Micas and three external fuel tanks . Check the BVR/WVR power and the range ...

Cheers . 


Again, whats the point of this? All modern aircraft can carry external tanks, METEOR isn't operational and even so only a handful of Rafales will be capable of firing it sometime after 2012 when Rafales MIGHT get an AESA for the last 60 or so produced.


-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 8:03:41 PM
DA :
""Again, whats the point of this? All modern aircraft can carry external tanks, METEOR isn't operational and even so only a handful of Rafales will be capable of firing it sometime after 2012 when Rafales MIGHT get an AESA for the last 60 or so produced.
 
The point is to show you (and others) that Europe ~and France~ are keeping things moving ahead and are sometimes moving faster than you do in the USA . That 's it .
Keep in mind that we are Allies and our technology is helping the West to be on top , this is not a USA versus Europe thing . As long as we keep racing each other , the others (Russia , China , India & Co) will stay behind and this is what matters .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 8:22:27 PM
Let 's be honest here , unless something goes really wrong no Meteor will ever be fired on US aircrafts .
The day we 'll see a Rafale , Typhoon , Gripen (or else) firing a Meteor at a US aircraft , the World will be walking on its head .
 
We should stop fighting with "words" and just acknowledge that we are working for the good of us all .
You will never forget that the French helped you to be Americans and Europe will never forget that you kicked the Germans a** . This is a done deal .
 
Cheers .

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 8:50:00 PM
I said :
""This is a done deal""
 
Unless Israel starts the WW3 ...(which is already under way) ...
I am going to talk my mind because I believe it is a very important topic . The West should not allow Israel to hit any Muslim Country first , even if it is for destroying some nuclear capabilities . The message to the Muslim World would be to bitter to swallow . That would lead to WW3 .
USA or Europe has to take the burden of the first hit , the best would be Europe . This way , the Muslim World would have to switch from a racist dialogue to a more open dialogue .
As an exemple if the USA attack Iran , the Muslim World will scream dead to the Sionists and the Americans while if Europe attack Iran , the Imams will have to find a different ground for their propaganda (Europe has far more Muslims than Jews) and they will find themselves without any backing at the UN .
Just to say that the West (Obama and Europe ~Sarkozy , Merkel) MUST put a "lid" on Israel .
 
Sorry to leave the topic for a minute but I think it is relevant regarding the EU Airforce .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

usajoe1    Stop Dreaming   5/24/2009 8:50:36 PM
 
DA :
""Again, whats the point of this? All modern aircraft can carry external tanks, METEOR isn't operational and even so only a handful of Rafales will be capable of firing it sometime after 2012 when Rafales MIGHT get an AESA for the last 60 or so produced.
 
The point is to show you (and others) that Europe ~and France~ are keeping things moving ahead and are sometimes moving faster than you do in the USA . That 's it .
Keep in mind that we are Allies and our technology is helping the West to be on top , this is not a USA versus Europe thing . As long as we keep racing each other , the others (Russia , China , India & Co) will stay behind and this is what matters .
 
Cheers .
 
LOL! What are talking about, in what area is Europe ahead of America??? In fighter tech? Look at Raptor vs Gripen, Typhoon an Rafale. Str. Bombers? B-2,B1 and B52's vs nothing. Avionics? The US has been fiting AESA radars on fighters since 2000, Europe might put a couple in their fighers after 2011. In Nuclear submariens? Maybe Britain is equal, France is not in the same league. Nuclear Carriers? The US has been building Nuclear carriers over five decades. France tried buliding a half a carrier with nuclear power, and it took them over a decade to get all the bugs fixed, no one else even tried. Modern destroyers? Arligh Burke vs Forbin and Type 45,  Forbin not even close, Type 45 is as good in Air Defense but its lacking Anti Ship and Land attack capabilitiy. I can go on and on. Now there are things that Europe is equal to with regardes to the US, like armor and artilary, and small arms, and maybe in some respect better in some of those things, but in all the major  categories, its behind. Why are you putting India, China and Russia together? India is more of an important alie to the US than France. In a couple of decades India is going to be the 3rd largest economy in the world, its already a nuclear power, and in a decade its military power is going to surpass that of France. We need India to counter China in the coming decades.
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 9:01:15 PM
Joe :
""LOL! What are talking about, in what area is Europe ahead of America???""
 
Well , maybe you should read some good books Joe because if you think that the USA are ahead in everything , you are clearly mistaking .
Drop your flag and comeback with us .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 9:09:35 PM
Joe :
""India is more of an important alie to the US than France. In a couple of decades India is going to be the 3rd largest economy in the world, its already a nuclear power, and in a decade its military power is going to surpass that of France. We need India to counter China in the coming decades.""
 
Listen Joe , India is the second horse for the US political bookmakers , the first one is Europe , you want it or not .
You need India because of its Geographical position (China , Pakistan) but this is not your real and profound ally , far from it .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 9:32:20 PM
To go back to the topic "what 's wrong with the Rafale" , I believe that the question should be "what 's wrong with the F-35" .
 
The real question is : is the F-35 able to do better than the best 4th generation aircraft and at what price .
Look at this :
 
h*tp://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8892/1img80228033.jpg
 
2 missiles and 2 bombs , hurray !!! (and the range is crap)
When I look at it , it looks like a waste of time and money and I am not the only one to think this way .
Btw , what is the maximal external load ? I just seem not to remember ...
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/24/2009 9:46:51 PM
A F-35 Lightning (lol) loaded this way against a Russian or Chinese CAP patrol has no chance to survive whatsoever .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

usajoe1    BW   5/24/2009 10:14:03 PM
I said :
""This is a done deal""
 
Unless Israel starts the WW3 ...(which is already under way) ...
I am going to talk my mind because I believe it is a very important topic . The West should not allow Israel to hit any Muslim Country first , even if it is for destroying some nuclear capabilities . The message to the Muslim World would be to bitter to swallow . That would lead to WW3 .
USA or Europe has to take the burden of the first hit , the best would be Europe . This way , the Muslim World would have to switch from a racist dialogue to a more open dialogue .
As an exemple if the USA attack Iran , the Muslim World will scream dead to the Sionists and the Americans while if Europe attack Iran , the Imams will have to find a different ground for their propaganda (Europe has far more Muslims than Jews) and they will find themselves without any backing at the UN .
Just to say that the West (Obama and Europe ~Sarkozy , Merkel) MUST put a "lid" on Israel .
 
Sorry to leave the topic for a minute but I think it is relevant regarding the EU Airforce .
 
Cheers .
 
Isreal is not going to start WW3, those are just fantasies. Israel knows that the current US administration is not going to use force against Iran, so it has to do it itself. Israel will never allow Iran to have nukes, under any situation, period. I will bet you that there is no muslim country bordering Iran that wants a nuclear Iran either. Openly they will disapprove of Israel but behind cloed doores they will thank them. Now as far as Europe attaking Iran, that is just more fantasies.
 
 
Joe :
""LOL! What are talking about, in what area is Europe ahead of America???""
 
Well , maybe you should read some good books Joe because if you think that the USA are ahead in everything , you are clearly mistaking .
Drop your flag and comeback with us .
 
Cheers .
Read some good books? Tell me where Europe is ahead of the US in Defence sector besides the ones I already pointed out.
 
 
Joe :
""India is more of an important ally to the US than France. In a couple of decades India is going to be the 3rd largest economy in the world, its already a nuclear power, and in a decade its military power is going to surpass that of France. We need India to counter China in the coming decades.""
 
Listen Joe , India is the second horse for the US political bookmakers , the first one is Europe , you want it or not .
You need India because of its Geographical position (China , Pakistan) but this is not your real and profound ally , far from it .
 
Cheers .

I was not talking about Europe, we have a very strong ally in Europe, UK. I was talking about France. Get your facts straight. India is slowely becoming more relavent in the world stage than most of Europe. Outside of Britain Europe is nothing but a soft power, that is an economical power. Indias and Chinas Power overall is going to surpass that of Europe in the comming decades. India  is going to be to the US, in about two decades what Europe was in the second half of the 20th century.

 
Quote    Reply

usajoe1    BW   5/24/2009 10:17:58 PM
 
To go back to the topic "what 's wrong with the Rafale" , I believe that the question should be "what 's wrong with the F-35" .
 
The real question is : is the F-35 able to do better than the best 4th generation aircraft and at what price .
Look at this :
 
h*tp://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8892/1img80228033.jpg
 
2 missiles and 2 bombs , hurray !!! (and the range is crap)
When I look at it , it looks like a waste of time and money and I am not the only one to think this way .
Btw , what is the maximal external load ? I just seem not to remember ...
 
BW, do you really have problems with your head. this last comment is so out there that i'm just going to assume your playing around
 

 
 
Quote    Reply
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy