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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 4:42:09 PM
Ok Darth
Let do the case
If we assume a SU30 MKI vs a Rafale
Let says on PUBLIC information

For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of detecting Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km. The radar can track 20 air targets and engage the 4 most threatening targets simultaneously (this capability was introduced in the Indian RC1 and RC2). These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. For comparison, Phazotron-NIIR?s Zhuk-MS radar has a range of 150-180km against a fighter and over 300km against a warship. "We can count the number of blades in the engine of the aircraft in sight (by the NO11M) and by that determine its type," NIIP says.

or
Zhuk-MFS (Export Designation Zhuk-MFSE) Upgrade of the Zhuk-M radar, the Zhuk-MFS offers detection performance up to 180 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target
 
Considering those information we can assume that:
F16 RCS is considered twice Mig 21 since 160 instead 135 km range
Which is in accordance to public data about 3 m² for a F16 or 1,5 for a Mig 21
So N011M would detect a 1m² at 120 km so 0,1 m² at 67 km.
 
Notice that Zhuk-MFS is then similar on 1 m² with a 120 km range but N011M is PESA like Rafale
 
Rafale RBE2 PESA radar is said to detect 1m² at 100 km according to public data
So 3 m² at 130 km which is close to the French M2000-5 RDY
(RDY-2 is said better and more similar to Captor).
 
What is interesting is that SU 27 is said to be detected  a range of over 330 km so it show a massive 27 m² RCS but maybe with huge external charges.
Let supposed that SU30 MKI has achieved a good reduction of SU 27 RCS with a little RAM magic, and is at 3 m² in A toA (like a standard F16)
 
Rafale is said according to public sources at 0,1 m² (10 to 20 time less than a M2000D which is in accordance) so we could assume this value with only 4 Mica for exemple in clean configuration.(In clean configuration a F35 carry also 4 AAM BTW)
Rafale empty weight is at 10 tons (9,4+0,6 for 4 mica) with 4,7 tons of internal fuel so with an excellent 1,47 fuel ratio with so a probable better range than a M2000 with external 1300 litres tank.So it is a usable configuration.
 
Rafale would detect SU30 MKI at 130 km and  SU30 MKI would detect rafale at 67 km
Now with superior ECM of Rafale we could assume SU30 MKI radar is reduced by 3 so with a....23 km detection range of Rafale only!
For ECM of SU 30 MKI (Israelis omnidirectional and not directive RCS coupled like Rafale), Rafale radar range is reduced by maybe 1,5 or maybe 2 to please you
Rafale still detect at 86 to 65 km range.
Now with AESA we can assume rafale detect SU30 MKI at 50% more in every case.
Who is likely to win BVR combat whatever Rafale has PESA or AESA?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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benellim4       5/18/2009 4:57:19 PM
Q: Who would win in a three way fight between an AESA Rafale, an F-8 Crusader, and the Easter Bunny?
 
A: The F-8 Crusader because the other two don't exist. 
 
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 4:58:58 PM
warpig    
At least I back my comments with OFFICIAL links from US or french DoD or good work available from internet (from universities or research institutes)
You don't
Who is the professional? You would be surprised what is my level of contact in USA.Very surprised.
At least I know how to search my info on US governemental sites.
Now I don't  critic USA or says that US products are bulsh*t like you say about French ones.US product are very good.
But let allow us to defend our position when it is true.And we know how to design products which did a surprise from Mirage 3 to Exocet or M2000.
BW maybe too optimitic and enthusiastic as an amateur in defense tech, but I'm not.
When Australia or NZ order a French SAM (Mistral) over the USA Stinger in a competition, or French MU 90 Torpedoes over USA MK50 torpedoes, it says a lot.
Because Australia or NZ are pro US.Not pro french.
I just comment here sometimes and I'm fact based.
 
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Bluewings12       5/18/2009 5:03:45 PM
I must correct again few mistakes .
DA :
""Almost all modern air to air fighters have a detection range advantage against the Rafale because of it's smaller radar""
 
No they haven 't DA ! (Of course it depends on what hangs under the wings) .
 
DA :
""If you are going to ignore the fact that the Rafale dish area is smaller than the F-16 what is the point. These are obvious facts.""
 
To start with , the Rafale has a bigger radar dish than any F-16 . Since you can check the numbers on the Net , I am not lying to you .
An Air to Air loaded Rafale (8 Micas , one supersonic central fuel tank) has a very low RCS (less than 0.5 square meter) . Any other 4th generation aircraft with a similar load will have a bigger RCS including the SH .
Then , add the Rafale 's ECM suite and the knowledge of the French Pilots and you get something you can barely lock on .
 
Herald , your maths are wrong and your opinion on Mica 's Pk is also wrong . The problem WE have with you is that you keep pulling rabbits out of a hat without backing up your claims . Change your attitude or I will not respond to you anymore . To the other posters , there is no Mica's probability kill numbers available on the open Net .
Since Herald is not working for MBDA , Herald is inventing numbers .
 
Herald (talking about the Mica) :
""See those strakes and fins? That is called a big fat radar return.""
 
Not from the front Herald and a missile is always coming at you nose first . You 're not even funny ...
 
usajoe :
""Look man what part of the AESA advantage over PESA don't you understand""
 
And you , what do you not understand Joe ? Yes the AESA has a longer range as well as better multi-modes but again you forget the RCS and ECM factors .
 
""The F-15 and the Sukhoi are heavy Air Superiority fighters with larger more affective radars, with longer range A2A weapons to complemant those radars.""
 
The Rafale kicked the a** of the F-15K in A2A during the Korean evaluation (the Typhoon also did) .
 
""The Eagle's record in A2A combat speaks for itself""
 
Against WHAT ???  Poor Irakis without AWACS , poor Serbians with Fulcrums not even equipped with radars and sometimes taking off without missiles ? You want me to continue ? 
The Eagle never faced a good opposition , NEVER ! When it does in DACT , it gets shotdown big time (M2000s , Rafales , agressors F-16s --->in WVR) .
One thing you might not know Joe , the Pk (percentage of kill) of the Eagle in GW1 and during Deny Flight :
 
GW 1:
""USAF F-15Cs also fired 12 AIM-9 Sidewinders during Desert Storm, resulting in eight kills: a PK of 67%. For the same USAF F-15Cs, the PK for AIM-7 Sparrows was only 34% (67 shots and 23 kills)—making the AIM-7 half as effective as the AIM-9. Each Desert Storm AIM-7M Sparrow cost $225,700 compared to only $70,600 for the AIM-9M Sidewinder.Not including the indirect costs of the AIM-7—larger, costlier launch platform, which uses more gas and needs more maintenance—this translates to each AIM-7 kill costing 620% more than each AIM-9 kill.""

Deny flight :
""A more recent Operation Southern Watch engagement occurred on January 5th, 1999 when two Iraqi MiG-25s violating the southern ?no-fly? zone illuminated two F-15Cs with their BVR radar.The F-15s responded by firing three AIM-7 Sparrows and one AIM-120 AMRAAM. All missiles missed. Subsequently, two Navy F-14s fired two AIM-54 Phoenix missiles at the two MiG-25s. Despite the Phoenix being the most expensive—and supposedly most capable—air-to-air radar-guided missile ever made, both missed. The violating MiG-25s escaped to fight another day.""
 
Bravo ! And that was against poor Irakis ...
 
More in a moment .
 
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 5:04:26 PM
ASEA Rafale F3 does not exist but in production for delivery and IOC in 2 years
But even with PESA, Rafale  it is sufficient for everything in AtoA except F22 and we are not planning a war with USA.
Now F35 is not in IOC as well.
As of early 2003 the Air Force was tentatively scheduled to receive its first F-35 in 2008, but initial operational capability (IOC) for the service was set for 2011. The US Navy, along with the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force, was scheduled for a 2012 IOC.
I could have wrote as well:
 
Q: Who would win in a three way fight between an F35 , an Mirage F1, and the Easter Bunny?
A:  Mirage F1 because the other two don't exist. 
 
 
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Herald12345    Pursuit logics.   5/18/2009 5:05:54 PM

Herald

 

At the risk of adding fuel to the fire and providing more ammunition for the banal - uber missile combines two roles without compromising either role- argument.

 

and please forgive me if i sprang a herald trap.

 

BW and FS maintain that to swap IR to RF roles is just a seeker swap.

No it is not in practice.. In summary, an IR seeker can track lead by built in offset predict and the GCU will use the most energy efficient direct chase profile to close the maneuvering target.That is bearing only data (scalar) and relies on continuous point.. You  have to constantly correct lead over tau (time interval) and chase the image or the heat source as it drifts across the IR seeker's FoV This means the IR GCU uses the heat blob or image drift and nudges or slams the actuators to make small continuous or gross adjustments to fins and vanes and thrusters to mantain pursuit lead point until final merge at which it tries to center the hottest spot in the blob detected or the image and jerks directly into the target it sees.
 
Radar, at the least the active type radar on AMRAAM supplies a VECTOR not a SCALAR to the GCU missile computer which can use the vector or TRACK to predict where the target will be in the near future and the missile computer will directly POINT at the predict point. Its a fairly stupid cheap computer in AMRAAM, but its machine (hardware) logics and preset (data tables) solutions are good enough so that it applies shove forces to POINT the missile in a single correction and the missile flies to meet and greet as opposed to IR chase and meet.  When the radar guided missile is close enough that the proximty fuses kick in, it, the missile explodes its warhead and relies on spall more than direct missile impact and then explosion to do the job.  

You have stated this isn't the case as a different flight profile is required thus software package.
 
The two dufferent approaches require purpose designed missile bodies, actuators, and control systems to get the most efficient use out of the coastimg potential energy involved in flyout after rocket motor burnout.  Just how you turn dictates how you design the missile body. For example AMRAAM you unload inertia forces late (tail controls) and you reduce drag as much as possible consistent with the lift you need to maximize usable flyout after lob. The planes on the missile midbody are there for lift and to damp roll while the tail controls are for SHOVE and point and not continuous lead correction. 
 
The MICA needs all the lift she can get and relies heavily on those strakes you see on her  for it. She also relies on her fins and vane controls to fine adjust for point lead drift to center both her radar returns and IR images the same way. The software packages as stated are different logics for radar (vector/track) and IR (scalar/bearing ); but because THALES screwed up the machine intercept pursuit logics for the GCU/RH seeker combo trying to use an IR solution for an active radar thay robbed the MICA of almost 20% of its usable flyout potential energy. Furthermore, as with the stupid RBE2, they did not solve for parasitic noise in the MICA seeker so they now get a halo where the "noise" overwhelms the radar return signal giving them a FoV picture that looks something like a doughnut  when you graph the returns across that rather myopic FoV cone.      

My field of relative (in)expertise is aircraft maintenance and systems design and antegration and consequently i know little about missiles. so to me it isn't inconceivable that the seeker unit and brain could be a combined plug and play assembly.

Missiles are not piloted aircraft. Missiles are stupid. As a Human being, you have to design the missile to fly exactly right for what you want, or you will wind up with a piece of junk (Falcon, Terrier, Atlas, Sea Slug, Aster ) that won't do what you hoped, but  will do exactly what you designed into it wrong . Nowhere does KISS apply to a machine more than to Mister Rocket.  

Or more simply (and to my mind effectively) both flight profiles could be loaded and the appropriate mode selected by pin configuration of the seeker. This method is used to configure a fair amount of Avionic equiptment to aircraft types and configurations.

 
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benellim4       5/18/2009 5:14:17 PM
"Despite the Phoenix being the most expensive—and supposedly most capable—air-to-air radar-guided missile ever made, both missed."
 
Anyone who thinks the above is true needs to get their heads checked. The AIM-54 was never meant to engage TACAIR. It was meant to kill lumbering Russian bombers before they got within AS-4 range.
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 5:15:04 PM
Whatever BW
SuperMystere B2 has dominated Mig 17 (proven in 1956), Mirage III has dominated Mig 21(proven in 1967), Mirage F1 has dominated Mig 21(proven in beginning of eighties by South Africans), Mirage 2000 has dominated Mig 29 and even F16 (according to Indian and Greec who use them and have a victory over a F16), and there is no reason that Rafale do not perform the job vs SU30 MKI for the first time in 50 years, or even PakFa in a Rafale F4 version.
 
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benellim4       5/18/2009 5:20:20 PM
"The Eagle never faced a good opposition , NEVER ! When it does in DACT , it gets shotdown big time (M2000s , Rafales , agressors F-16s --->in WVR) ."
 
BW you need to get your head checked. What you posted was, as Herald is fond of pointing out, lies. You're portraying Iraqi fighters as unarmed. Maybe when they were bugging out to Iran, but when Mig/Su's actually challenged the Eagle, they were armed and found wanting. That is also true in the skies above Lebanon in 1982 as well. Unless you think the Syrians were sending up the best interceptor Russia was exporting at the time, the Mig-25, unarmed.
 
 
It's pretty crummy when you have to try to denigrate the combat record of another aircraft to sustain your fanboy fantasies. I think this would be a better board if you and FS were banned.
 
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Bluewings12       5/18/2009 5:22:44 PM
FS :
""Whatever BW""
 
??? Excuse me ? Do we have a problem ?
 
Rufus , your last 3 posts have to be discarded entirely , sorry to say .
 
Cheers .
 
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