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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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Lynstyne       5/18/2009 3:37:07 PM
Herald
 
At the risk of adding fuel to the fire and providing more ammunition for the banal - uber missile combines two roles without compromising either role- argument.
 
and please forgive me if i sprang a herald trap.
 
BW and FS maintain that to swap IR to RF roles is just a seeker swap.
 
You have stated this isnt the case as a different flight profile is required thus software package.
 
My field of relative (in)expertise is aircraft maintenance and systems design and antegration and consequently i know little about missiles. so to me it isnt inconceivable that the seeker unit and brain could be a combined plug and play asembly.
 
Or more simply (and to my mind effectively) both flight profiles could be loaded and the appropriate mode selected by pin configuration of the seeker. This method is used to configure a fair amount of Avionic equiptment to aircraft types and configurations.
 
Is this not posible in a missile system (perhaps space constraints limit memory space) - asking as you certainly appear to have more knowledge on this subject than i.
 
 
Regards
 
 
 
 
 
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Lynstyne       5/18/2009 3:37:11 PM
Herald
 
At the risk of adding fuel to the fire and providing more ammunition for the banal - uber missile combines two roles without compromising either role- argument.
 
and please forgive me if i sprang a herald trap.
 
BW and FS maintain that to swap IR to RF roles is just a seeker swap.
 
You have stated this isnt the case as a different flight profile is required thus software package.
 
My field of relative (in)expertise is aircraft maintenance and systems design and antegration and consequently i know little about missiles. so to me it isnt inconceivable that the seeker unit and brain could be a combined plug and play asembly.
 
Or more simply (and to my mind effectively) both flight profiles could be loaded and the appropriate mode selected by pin configuration of the seeker. This method is used to configure a fair amount of Avionic equiptment to aircraft types and configurations.
 
Is this not posible in a missile system (perhaps space constraints limit memory space) - asking as you certainly appear to have more knowledge on this subject than i.
 
 
Regards
 
 
 
 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 3:42:32 PM
 
"MICA IR is not cleared for export as too sensitive. "
 
 "D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.
It is a french silver bullet."
 
 
Hey Mr Pretend Expert,
 
Have anything to say about your earlier lies about the Mica IR being your super secret "silver bullet" and not cleared for export?
 
h*tp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HAF_Mirage_2000-5_.jpg 
 
h*tp://tinyurl.com/qkaktv
 
h*tp://www.deagel.com/news/Hellenic-Air-Force-Orders-Mica-and-Scalp-EG-Missiles_n000000177.aspx

Kinda funny how an "expert" on French missiles like you thinks the missile isn't cleared for export when in fact that missile is widely known to already be in the air with the Greek Airforce don't you think?
 
Seems to me that someone with your "expertise" would already know that wouldn't they?
 
Like I said earlier, with only 5 Mica customers how do you lose track of one?  How is it that an obvious "expert" like yourself is so sure the Mica IR isn't even available for export when in fact it was exported YEARS ago?
 
You are a fake, we all know it.  Save yourself some time and energy and stop trying to convince people you are something you clearly aren't.  I have met and worked with the real thing, and it ain't you.
 

 
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 3:47:09 PM
Eurofighter, Super Hornet, F-15 or F-35.  All of the above have far more capable radars, self protection jammers, and more capable missiles.
For the radar, Eurofighter, Super Hornet AESA , F-15 or F-35 have currently a longuer range radar.Not necessarly better on ECM or modes at shorter range.
Corrected once Rafale get AESA vs Eurofighter, Super Hornet AESA , F-15 or F-35 in range.
F35 and Rafale AESA will be available the same year in 2011.
Now for today Rafale, beat Eurofighter by RCS and ECM, and see F15 much before, due to current F15 RCS (except if you speak about silent Eagle which is not available).
To beat a plane which has 1/50th RCS you need a radar 2,65 time better in range.It is basic radar equation.
And even latest version of F15 AESA radar are not 2,65 time better in range
For the jammer no way.Only Rafale has such a (costly) jammer because it is part of the system.
 
Rafale is entirely designed around its jammer.
Without it, it is a plane similar of F18E as a platform in BVR (while superior in WVR manoeuvrability), with an inferior radar for now (F18E has longuer radar range currently),
It is a huge problem for Rafale export now since  foreign clients certainly do not benefit of french jammer (or RCS) or have to believe us while they have no idea of F35 or Pakfa so prefer to wait.
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica    Math FS   5/18/2009 3:55:32 PM
This is not the same as shooting a missile 80km totally passive. This method is useful. Certainly stealthy against most targets. But if you are in a BVR fight against an R-77 firing Flanker who has you at 2 to 4 times that distance.

Yes it is not the same methods.And we have others.

You assumption for Flanker is false.Rafale will not be detected at very long range by a Flanker in AtoA mission.Not with the current N011M Bars.Future version are said by Russian to be about 0,01 RCS at 80 km which would be more dangerous.Now, we will see.

Don't forgot we have interferometric digital RWR (only F22 has such a system now on production planes) with pin point accuracy, OSF and visible chanel with 80 km range.

All of those are well known for professional engineers who have done their search on french public documentation and know our technological level.

Of course you could say, you could do it, but you don't have implemented yet.

Yes, exact performance are not public, I agree.


FS,

Put in the data for combat configured Rafale vs Sukhoi and tell me what you get...

Range2 x (RCS1/RCS2)^.25=Range1


-DA 
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 4:02:07 PM
I wrote
D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.Of course, our best Gulf ally (i.e UAE) , we have a strategic alliance with ,  is a special case as Greece a NATO country where we try to shift balance vs Turkey in our favor (including then case we would need Greec Cyprus part).
They are simply our two best allies for action in oriental med or Gulf.
Now MICA IR export clearance could be lowered in coming years.
 
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warpig       5/18/2009 4:02:59 PM
Gawd!  That the two of you can still spew such crap today, after all the time and effort we've taken over the last few years to explain in detail how wrong you are about so many things, is absolutely incredible.  You appear to be congenitally incapable of learning anything related to airpower.  At least it looks like SYSOPS pulled the plug on that big dick, PlG, or else this farcical travesty would be a festival of insults even more than it already is.
 
Rufus, you are by no means the only professional here, both from inside DoD and from industry, but your handle is new here so you may not be aware of all the history behind engaging these couple of zealots.  Please believe me when I tell you the sad truth that this thread is not an anomoly, but actually is par for the course when the French get involved in any aircraft-related discussion.  As you realized, there is so much to correct that you almost can't pick just any one place to start.  It's just as well if you don't, since it would do no good and within a few months or weeks they'll just make the same absurd claims again.
 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 4:14:11 PM
You guys are absolute fruitloops.
 
I mean honestly, have you ever taken the time to read even a basic book on air combat or do you just read fan message boards all day long?
 
 
To summarize,
 
You think a Rafale is going to be able to just fly along, line up an absolutely perfect shot against a target that has no clue it is there, briefly range it with your radar, before lobbing a missile well beyond its effective range... and have that missile magically find its way to a target that is just happily flying along totally clueless.
 
Repeat after me.  The Rafale is not a stealth aircraft.  It isn't even the stealthiest of the available 4th generation aircraft.  Any high-end enemy will detect the Rafale with either its onboard radar or with something like an AWACS long before the Rafale is able to line up its perfect shot.
 
Second off, long range lob shots are absolutely not the Mica's strong suit.  By the standards of a BVR weapon it is short ranged, especially in its IR version.
 
Third off, the Rafale itself has one of the shortest ranged radars of any fighter currently in production. Any late model SU-27/F-15/SH/EF/Mig-31 will easily detect it first, and we aren't talking about slightly.  This has already been discussed publically more than once by pilots involved in exercises, french industry insiders, and potential export customers.
 
Finally, Rafale's self protection jammer is a rather sub-par performer and relies and obsolete MMICs and computers.  Spectra is unable to cope with rapidly shifting LPI signals and instead is forced to resort to simplistic noise techniques.  It doesn't even have a towed decoy.  If it had come out on time, 10 years ago, it would have been competitive.  Just like the Rafale.
 
 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 4:18:39 PM
"D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.Of course, our best Gulf ally (i.e UAE) , we have a strategic alliance with ,  is a special case as Greece a NATO country where we try to shift balance vs Turkey in our favor (including then case we would need Greec Cyprus part).
They are simply our two best allies for action in oriental med or Gulf.
Now MICA IR export clearance could be lowered in coming years."
 
 LMAO!
 
Is that the best you can do?  First you claim that it is French only and isn't cleared for export. 
 
Now look how quickly you change your story when you realize what a fool you have made of yourself!
 
Just go ahead and admit what we all already know.  You are a fake and didn't even know your favorite missile had already been exported. 
 
"MICA IR is not cleared for export as too sensitive. "
 
 "D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.
It is a french silver bullet.""
 
 
LOL

 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 4:20:00 PM
"Rufus, you are by no means the only professional here, both from inside DoD and from industry, but your handle is new here so you may not be aware of all the history behind engaging these couple of zealots.  Please believe me when I tell you the sad truth that this thread is not an anomoly, but actually is par for the course when the French get involved in any aircraft-related discussion.  As you realized, there is so much to correct that you almost can't pick just any one place to start.  It's just as well if you don't, since it would do no good and within a few months or weeks they'll just make the same absurd claims again."
 
I see
 
What a waste.
 
 I will look back at some of the old threads.
 
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