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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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DarthAmerica       5/9/2009 11:17:20 PM
FS,

the bottom line is that people want what they want. The Rafale doesn't offer what people want unconditionally. Its always at some later date and at considerable cost. I have considerable experience with procurement. When you are looking at three or four manufacturers offering similar product and one cannot meet critical requirements within the defined schedule, chances are good that the the product will not be chosen when other options are available. Also, if you are trying to operate with a particular standard to benefit from commonality and economy of scale. The Rafale isn't competitive. The Rafale is still in gestation while almost all peers have reached maturity and more advanced aircraft such as F-35 are becoming available. If Rafale had been produced in quantity between 1991 and 1999 feature complete it would have done a lot better.

-DA 
 
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Rufus       5/10/2009 1:53:58 AM
"-1) The aircraft 's RCS with submunitions and tanks is worse than expected .
This is less stealthier than what we planned :
h*tp://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6687/02124t.jpg
With such a load , a Flanker can detect the Rafale at over 200km . This is not what I call "discreet" "

Discrete? What the heck does that even mean?  The Rafale is about as "discrete" as any 4th generation type with some minor RCS enhancements.  Even flying clean its RCS is more generous.  I am assuming from your posts that you haven't actually spent any time working on or with fighter aircraft.  The Rafale doesn't even incorporate the very most basic RCS reduction features.  Eliminating verticle stabilizers, canadards, and things like that non-retractable refueling probe are the very first thing a design team would do if they were trying to build a "discrete" aircraft.  The Rafale's designers didn't because they didn't know what the future held, and frankly didn't have the expertise in the first place.
 
Since you like pretty pictures so much: ht*p://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/recon/sr71/sr71_08.jpg

Look at the verticle stabilizers in the above plane, and ask yourself, "why did they do that?"  The answer is that even several decades ago US engineers knew that to build a "discrete" aircraft you would need to avoid things like verticle stabilizers.
 

-2) The wings do NOT fold on the Navy version (Rafale M) . Big mistake because of added cost , just stupid ...
The CdG could have 6 to 8 more Rafales onboard , as simple as that .

That is really a minor issue.  The Rafale was a reasonably small footprint and adding folding wings would have added a lot of cost and complexity when you consider that only a handful of naval varients will ever be built in the first place.

-3) The SPECTRA F3 software needs better AESA antennas but nothing is planned yet .
 
That is what I already told you, several times, but it isn't just the antennas that need to go.  The bulk of its computer system is simply not up to the task.  It is able to do a beautiful job of producing pre-programmed responses to radars with signatures it recognizes, but it doesn't have the power to adapt on the fly, or keep pace with the continuously variable LPI signals generated by next generation radars and seekers.  France is already working on upgrading Spectra's computers, but they should probably just go ahead and start over with a new system.  As you said, the AESAs on the Rafale are old, and though highly precise have too narrow a frequency operating range and are too slow to effectively timeshare against multiple radars under many circumstances.

-4) The Damoclès fiasco ""right on time , I promissed"" they said , well piss poor job . Same with the new Rcco-NG Pod , we 're still waiting for it ...
 
These aren't really problems with the Rafale itself.  More a sympotom of France's underfunding of its airforce in general. 

-5) Rafale 's dash speed is only Mach 2 and its supercruise ability(?) is piss poor .
 
Rafale's "dash speed" with a weapons load is nowhere near Mach 2, and it has no "supercruise" capabilit
 
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Rufus       5/10/2009 2:20:48 AM
This is exactly what we are discussing  and there is enough available doc on the Net to prove that the Rafale is top notch in this regard .
 
That is what we are discussing?  Then why on earth are you posting pictures to cockpit displays?  I am sorry, but it is clear you don't know the first thing about this subject.
 
It might even be better than most think if you check the result of last year Tiger-Meet joint exercise . The foreign pilots were surprised not to hear the Rafale pilots on the Comms while the Rafales outsmarted aggressors and defenses . Ask yourself why Rufus ... Btw , they did the same in the last RedFlag while pounding the ground sites with AASMs . The French pilots don 't have a cristal ball Rufus , but an efficient system .
 
and again with the misunderstanding!  Surprised not to hear pilots on comms?  What the heck does that have to do with sensor fusion or cockpit displays?  What the heck do AASMs have to do with sensor fusion or cockpit displays?
 
You are just rambling because you are confused.
 
""Jets like the F-35 will keep continuous track files using all available sensors, IR with DAS and its IRST, Radar, passively with its EW system, and when available with offboard sensors like an AWACs or other F-35s.""
 
It is also what the Rafale , Typhoon , Gripen , F-22 , SU-27 , SU-30 , J-10 , Mig-35 , M2000-5 , etc , are doing , thank you .
Anything more obvious to say Rufus ???
But of course , some aircrafts do it better than others and as I said , the Rafale the F-35 are ahead .

LOL, "rafale and F-35."  Those two jets are on completely different levels of performance.  The Rafale isn't even the best of the 4th generation designs when it comes to sensor fusion, that would really be the later model Super Hornets or F-16 block 60s.  Now you want to put it in the same sentence with the real thing?  First you confuse cockpit displays with sensor fusion, now you want to rate aircraft?  I understand that you love your country, but nationalism is no substitute for knowledge!
 

""The Rafale was originally intended to be a single seat only aircraft, with the two seat version used only for training, but in testing it became obvious that a single pilot wouldn't be able to effectively handle the high workload imposed by the Rafale's man machine interface.""

lol ! What a pack of bulls !!! You know what , instead to answer your non sense , I let you die stupid .
 
I take it then that you aren't even familiar with the development of your own country's single modern fighter aircraft design.  Why are you on a message board if you don't want to learn?
 
""In a high threat environment the pilot was forced to continually manage the aircraft's various sensors to keep track of what was going on around him to the extent that he could hardly fly the plane.""
 
??? (lol !) Excuse me but the Rafale has (read my lips) the best autopilot there is around entirely managed through fusion sensors , the aircraft can decide on its own (if asked) to change course because SPECTRA or RBE2 detected a EW or IR threat . You don 't have a clue , do you ? This kind of system is not new in the FAF as the M2000-B (and N) already had a similar capability for  20 years , because 'Deep Penetration" is what we are good at and we are unmatched (my occasional gilrfriends are my witnesses , lol) .

More confusion?  An autopilot has exactly what to do with sensor fusion?  You think that an autopilot is sensor fusion? LOL
 
As you said, autopilots and radar warning receivers are nothing new in the slightest.  Back in the 70s and 80s when that was the best approach available several aircraft employed that method, modern designs still have that option if for some reason they chose to use it.
 
 
""Why don't you explain why the MMICs in the Rafale's self protection jammer can't slide their bandwidth window fast
 
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Rufus       5/10/2009 2:25:34 AM
"Weak thrust output jet engines that burn out before they were expected too was a complete surpriuse to me a couple of years ago as I thouight the SNECMA part of the Dassault thieves brigade was actually fairly competent (they make good business jet engines). "
 
This is one of the most odd things about the Rafale.  I can only assume that SNECMA somehow tried to go cheap with the M88, because a reliable, long-lasting jet engine is a basic feature on any western design at this point.  If you want engines that need to be inspected every few hundred flight hours and rebuilt over and over again, buy a Russian or Chinese plane.
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/10/2009 5:45:11 AM

  NO disrespect but this quotes shows either the most basic lack of knowledge of the Rafale itself and its history, all this fuss means little in terms of aeronautic reality.

 One only have to look at US designs and the aerodynamic problem replicated from F-18 to F-35 including F-22, namely aerodynamic bashing of the vertical fins leading to excessive structural fatigue...

  Evolution is based on knowledge and doesn't necessarly means slow progresses, if there are conservative designs, the Rafale is certainly not one of them, and furthermore, performances speaks for themself.

 

Quote:Rufus
The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29.

  Requierements were somewhat different than what is writen here, and they didn't take nor the F-16 nor the Mig 29 into account either.
 
  It is proven today that the Mirage 2000 does a pretty good job of countering both these types and that Rafale is markedly superior to in in all aspects of A2A and A2G.
 

"Quote:Rufus
and other serious RCS offenders."
  Rafale designers never intended to make a VLO of it and its RCS is the lowest of all 4th generation fighters, another aspect of LO you dont mention and was treated at design stage (even in the case of the engines) is its IR signature.
   During the first simulated engagements of the 12F vs the USN and other allied aircrafts, fopreign pilots immediately reported problems with locking on a Rafale with their AIM-9 Ls, a Rafale can take on a Mirage 2000 flying on military power only.
 
   It have little problems outmaneuvring F-16/F-18, which pilots repports its incredible capability to point its nose where the pilot wishes at all speeds and AoA, even the AoA masters the  F/A-18s pilots were impressed and mde these comments much recently.
 

"Quote:Rufus
the end result was of course disappointing".

  Eurogither, SAAB and even Boeing mut be VERY desapointed.

 

Quote:Rufus
lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter".

  Let's make it CLEAR:

1) Rafale and Eurofighter only shares apparences and their design is fundamentaly different for those who know.

2) Rafale is the 4th generation aircraft with the highest instantaneous turn rate and have a sustained turn rate equal to that of Typhoon, its proven and demonstrated Max AoA is a whapping 40* higher that that of a Typhoon and well passed 10* higher than a Gripen.

  There is 12 to 20 kt/ 4* AoA difference in their approach speed and attitude and when a Rafale can easly be put throught the soft AoA limitation to save the day, a Tyhoon FCS will prevent any flying geniuse to do so because it is AoA limited.

  A recently published document on Rafale early flight test programe reveals that its all axis level of control at all speeds and hgigh AoA is far superior to most of its competitors:

 Maximum AoA of passed 100*, negative speed of 40 kt were achieved with NO LOSS OF CONTROL, while in dissimilar combat against the Mirage 2000 some agressive test pilots flew the aircraft at speeds as low as 18 kt (Yes, read eighteen knots).

 Post-stall maneuvers were firt simulated by ONERA then flown by several test-pilots.

 Rafale integrated canards have a lot more advantages than providing with a high level of variable lift, this compared to Typhoon long moment harm and to a much lesser extend, the less integrated canards of the Gripen.

  The vortices generated at both canard roots and tips allows for the natural close coupled canard configuration increase in airflow energy to be maximised, impossible with Typhoon actual design; it is worth taking note that EADS attempted in 2008 to remedie to this problem by adding LEXs to ex- GaF Typhoon 98+30.

  This soultion proved impractical due (again) to the original inlet design aerodynamic interferences and the design of the canards themself, in real life, add-on and patch-ups doesn't work for aerodynamic optimisation.

  Serie Rafale canards and LEX were fully integrated at design stage and are part of a combination including a TWO cones vortex lift delta wing to provide with variable lift and optimise their combined advantages.

  The designers went also a step further with full used of the boundary layer compressive and expensive waves characteristics, something no other design fully achieves even today, this furter increases airflow energy around the airframe at lower speed and higher AoA.

  SAAB couldn'

 
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DarthAmerica       5/10/2009 6:12:48 AM
So then why don't they sell?


Regards
-DA 
 
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gf0012-aust       5/10/2009 6:44:31 AM
AIM-9L?
a 1985 pdf?

not exactly stellar contemp references. 
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/10/2009 6:59:05 AM
@DarthAmerica
 
  Traditional Dassault customers are out of Rafale selling envelop, as simple as that.
 
  One simpler/single engine of the JAS-39 class vs a more advanced and heavier twin; they find it hard to trade 4 mirages for one Rafale even if it is the same interms of capabilties.

 
AIM-9L?

a 1985 pdf?




not exactly stellar contemp references. 

  You find better references as for IR AAMs (i might get the L wrong it might well be the M whatever equiped the USN F-18s and Spanich Navy Matadors in 2002) and references in terms of what I wrote.
  For the time being i can add to the agravation with more recent documents on all tackled subject, no problem.
 
  Now a question, what are YOUR refefrences to counter these?
 
  Regards. PlG
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/10/2009 7:13:08 AM

"Weak thrust output jet engines that burn out before they were expected too was a complete surpriuse to me a couple of years ago as I thouight the SNECMA part of the Dassault thieves brigade was actually fairly competent (they make good business jet engines). "


 

This is one of the most odd things about the Rafale.  I can only assume that SNECMA somehow tried to go cheap with the M88, because a reliable, long-lasting jet engine is a basic feature on any western design at this point.  If you want engines that need to be inspected every few hundred flight hours and rebuilt over and over again, buy a Russian or Chinese plane.



  M88 High pressure turbine have three time the TBO of EJ200.
 
  You're refering to the E1 which have been replaced by the E4 since 2004 and even so are mystaking issues between them.
 
  For the rest it is a question of budget and part availability resulting from it, NOT an issue with the engine itself.
 
  All in all your comments shows the greatest level of lack of information we have seen for a very long time, none of them can sustain close scrutiny, please would you be kind ebough as to back up your allegations with proper links to autoritative sources?
 
  For example you totaly ignore the reality of Rafale design requierements, goals, as well as the actual roadmap and its true level of technologies and developement potential.
 
   Because the most serious magasines over here are visibly desageing with you in all aspect and sources are LEGION to prove your claims to be all wrong.
 
  It looks to me as you have embarked in a personal vandetta against the aircraft but failed to inform yourself the slightest before doing so and it shows big time.
 
  Thanks for the links (to be posted soon i hope and not from another blog please!) we are all very interested.
 
  Regards, PlG
 
 
 
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french stratege       5/10/2009 1:15:58 PM
Rufus your post is completly wrong and shows only superficial understanding
Military tech is secret however evaluation is not entirely and Pentagon publish foreign technology assessment as I show.
Those are the only documents available to judge on general ability of a country.
Clearly US is willing to collaborate with french on MMIC technology for AESA or IR technology so we are not so backward (LOL!)
 
Now I'm giving you a further lessons to educate you,  but read documents I provided.
You have said
The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders.
Our goal was not to achieve the same level of F35 or F22 RCS reduction since our weapons would stay external and we did not want to pay for the penalty and cost of an internal bay (and especially a big one for bombing).
Our goal was affordable LO +sophisticated ECM (like B1 B philosophy in fact)
 
As an illustrative, it is not worth the value to achieve 0,001 m² RCS on airframe if your external weapons have a 0,05 m² value (like in AtoA) for example.If your external weapons have a 0,05 m² value, a proper goal would be to achieve a 0,1 m² overall value for example
Rafale intakes have curvature and features including RAM to avoid a strong RCS.
A inclined double stabilizer is important only for side RCS when you are close to 90° of plane axis.
It is especially important when you have a rear horizontal stabilizer due to heavy 90° diedric return
Rafale has no rear horizontal stabilizer.Moreover its vertical stabilizer is said to be transparent to radars for a large part and coated with RAM for the rest.
I guess that if the goal was to get a 0,5 or 1 m² RCS on 90° lateral, it is enough
 
Canards do not contribute much more than a rear stabilizer who edge also contribute and is not really masked by the wing.Again for a LO aircraft it does not matter.
non-retractable refueling probe can be curvated with proper angle to have a low RCS contributuon plus transparent materials or with RAM
If you are in a 0,1or 0,05 m² RCS range for example, probe RCS is only of a minor effect if it is properly designed and in the 0,0001 m² range for example
 
With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy
Shaping is indeed important in first order but full stealth like F35 or F22 is contribtion of several factors: shape, surface design, RAM, internal carrying whihc becomes important when you try to achieve a RCS inférior to weapons
Rafale has the proper shape for LO only RCS reduction in the front sector
 
France works on RCS reduction for decades as well, before seventies in fact.More than 3 decades of experience.
Our goal was to make an affordable LO aircraft at 9 tons so without the possibility of an internal carriage like the 13 tons VLO F35.
Moreover our philosophy is low altitude penetration for most dangerous missions like B1B where plane is within ground clutter, and too use stand off weapons like the 60 km range AASM.
For Air to Air the low RCS penalty of external charge like 4 AAM (liek F35 today) is not a so big issue when you take in account ECM and also benefits of external carriage for transonic and supersonic drag compare to an huge bomb bay like F35.
To compensate we add very sophisticated ECM you have absolutely no idea and fully digitalized where it matters( sophisticated analog devices can be necessary in some features of today advanced ECM) and moreover they are real time coupled with external RCS return shape like it is said in public Rafale documentation and french official reports.
 
Clearly Rafale works and works well on electromagnetic signature management.Different philosophy than F35, less costly, but less performant on air to ground bombing with common and cheap weapons due to Rafale higher RCS with external ordnances.We have to compensate with more expensive weapons and ECM and low altitude
 
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