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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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DarthAmerica       5/18/2009 2:22:23 PM

In BVR you can not detect with a missile launch detector, exhaust plume of a MICA IR since missile launch is too far and like AMRAAM burn its fuel in few seconds.



FS,

NOTICE THE FIRST ADVERTISED FE... Even for MANPADS dude. Thats a lot smaller launch signature against a much warmer background than the MICA in the sky. Modern fighters may detect the launch FS. The technology is there.


-DA 


 
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JFKY    And the Rafale ain't gonna   5/18/2009 2:34:37 PM
be 500 Km's from the target and the strike apckage be unaware of it, Bluewings!  That's what AWACS or ground radrsa re for...Dude IF I'm attacking France the Rafale isn't going to be 500 km. from the border and unobserved....so yes, once the strike package enters into POTENTIALLY hostile airspace it WILL begin "jinking."  You're not HONESTLY trying to tell me, that the Rafale is SO low observable that it will be perfroming Defensive Counter-Air over the ENEMY's territory are you?  Because, as people keep trying to get thru your thick Gallic Pride it's NOT LOW OBSERVABLE! 
 
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usajoe1    SU-30MKI VS RAFALE   5/18/2009 2:46:01 PM
Please somebody correct me if i'm wrong.
The SU-30mki vs the Rafale
Radar- Sukhoi, N011-M PESA more powerful than RBE2
Range- Sukhoi by a long shot
A2A /BVR- Sukhoi's R-77, together with its radar outclass the Rafale.
A2A/WVR- Sukhois HMD, with the R-73 give it the edge
Paylod- Sukhoi.
Engines- Sukhois AL-31 more powerful than Rafales M88.
Speed- Sukhoi
RCS- Rafale
ECM- close with the SU-30MKI with its western systems, but I will give it to the Rafale.
More surviveable against ground threats- Rafale.
Better deep pentration strike fighter- Rafale.
Now this establishes that the Rafale is a better strike aircraft and a bit more surviveable but there is no way that this bird is a better A2A/ BVR fighter.
 
 
 
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 3:01:24 PM
Darth
 
Or IR
FS, under certain conditions. Not at several tens of km  

Of course.Mica IR can not acquire its target at long range by itself.
It needs to be guided on an aim point, by OSF, RWR or radar, until it get closer to finish by it self.Like for an RF missile.Considering best IR tech, autonomous guidance is at 20/30 km at best.
 
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Herald12345    Falsehoods   5/18/2009 3:10:21 PM

Darth

 

Or IR

FS, under certain conditions. Not at several tens of km  




Of course.Mica IR can not acquire its target at long range by itself.

It needs to be guided on an aim point, by OSF, RWR or radar, until it get closer to finish by it self.Like for an RF missile.Considering best IR tech, autonomous guidance is at 20/30 km at best.


I would suggest that the poster learn something about imaging infrared detectors.
 
 
and fix his ignorance on subject.
 
Herald
.
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       5/18/2009 3:13:17 PM
Phaid posted this before about passive interception...


...Note the range and the methods. This is not the same as shooting a missile 80km totally passive. This method is useful. Certainly stealthy against most targets. But if you are in a BVR fight against an R-77 firing Flanker who has you at 2 to 4 times that distance. You are not going to survive using this method. He will have several firing opportunities and you will have to defend your aircraft. If you wish to shoot back at range you will have to use RADAR.

-DA 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 3:13:50 PM
USA have their magic silver bullet and it is the F22.
Best fighter platform in world and we recognize it
 
Now Rafale F3 PLUS Mica IR is the second one (with PESA only and wull be better with AESA) and to F22 only, and we would be pleased if you recognize it because it is the true and I think to be insulted as a french engineer when you deny us this achievment.
We do not currently produce a lot of weapons within a 2% GDP defense budget, but we succeeded well in maintaining our technological capabilities.
 
Second one? Second one what?  It sure as heck isn't the second best in air-to-air.  The Rafale is a good performer, but it isn't even in the same contest with aircraft like the Eurofighter, Super Hornet, F-15 or F-35.  All of the above have far more capable radars, self protection jammers, and more capable missiles.
 
You do get a fair bit out of your available resources, but not half as much as you seem to wish you did.  You should be proud that your country was able to produce a competitive aircraft domestically, that is no simple task.  You need to give up on this childish claims of superiority and nutty assertions about weapons capabilities.
 

 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 3:24:22 PM
"MICA IR is no different in concept from the other IR BVR weapons out there."
 There is no IR BVR weapons on the market.Russian had tried but they are inferior on seeker due to lack of avalability of latest state of the art IR CCD chips and it does not work well.
I do not say it has 99% PK at 80 km, because it is not true.Let say it has maybe similar Pk than RF version with advantage of silent approach.
 
The demands of a short range AAM are obviously different since the maneuvers at close range tend to be much more violent. So MICA has to have the authority to make those violent maneuvers which its wings and TV give it.
Its size and weight is close to Python V, and like you said, it has vector trust
BTW give a look to ASRAAM.
 
At long range, the missiles TV and Wings are a penalty as weight(Gravity) and drag take affect.
No since wings are short (it is mainly a lifting body),
The drag take effect is proportional in first order to remaining surface/remaining weight
remaining weight of mica is smaller than AMRAAM so the ratio is similar.
Don't forgot that missiles (unless they have stato) are not properlled during all flight but only on initial part.
TVC remove a little specific energy but few.
 
Since it isn't as big as other BVR missiles it's range is shorter.
No for the reasons I said
 
  Its a compromise design that offers more flexibility but at a price.
Don"t forgot that MICA is more recent technology than initial AMRAAM A/B
Of course AMRAAM have been improved since but remain a pure BVR missile(the seeker is lighter than A/B versions, better in ECCM and range and take less place so it allowed extension of powder engine in the D version for exemple).
Of  course if USA start a new development I have no doubt they could do better than Mica.
NOW the draw back of MICA is its price when used in WVR as it cost four time the cost of a AIM9X.
MICA is not as good of a BVR weapon as AMRAAM
I would say close to AMRAAM C (probably inferior in range) but not D obviously which has greater range than MICA.
It is why we participate to Meteor.
 
 or R-77 which are purpose built.
Give me a break with Russians.Not bad but not at MICA or AMRAAM-C level.In electronic they are a little backward.
R77 is probably closer to a AMRAAMC in range but with a AMRAAM A/B seeker.
However new versions would be of course more dangerous and they are planning a IR seeker also (when they would have ne needed captor).
 
 
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Herald12345    Falsehoods   5/18/2009 3:29:19 PM

Please somebody correct me if i'm wrong.

The SU-30mki vs the Rafale

Radar- Sukhoi, N011-M PESA more powerful than RBE2  Correct.

Range- Sukhoi by a long shot  Toss up. The Rafale can use a belly tank .

A2A /BVR- Sukhoi's R-77, together with its radar outclass the Rafale.  Probably: if the Russians ever train their client state pilots to use the combo properly the way the Russians know its supposed to be used.. Otherwise its a no contest exercise.  French pilots are just too good for the average Ethiopian to exploit his look frst advantage. 

A2A/WVR- Sukhois HMD, with the R-73 give it the edge. Close in: YES. The R-73 is DEADLY.

Paylod- Sukhoi. True.

Engines- Sukhois AL-31 more powerful than Rafales M88.  Acceleration gamma is a question mark..

Speed- Sukhoi:  Depends on what you mean. Clean or cluttered? Burdened? What fuel fraction? What altitude?

RCS- Rafale Clean or cluttered?"

ECM- close with the SU-30MKI with its western systems, but I will give it to the Rafale. Nope> parity or Sukhoi better-especially if the Israelis and Italians did the avionics workup.  Dassault and THALES  stinks when it comes to this.

More surviveable against ground threats- Rafale. True.

Better deep pentration strike fighter- Rafale. True until the standoff weapons are gone.

Now this establishes that the Rafale is a better strike aircraft and a bit more surviveable but there is no way that this bird is a better A2A/ BVR fighter.

The problem is that the French rely on good piloting and a small standoff weapon inventory to make up for an otherwise average bomb truck's shortcomings.  This thing is NOT a true air superiority fighter.  Its a fair to good strike bird

 

 

 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 3:33:36 PM
This is not the same as shooting a missile 80km totally passive. This method is useful. Certainly stealthy against most targets. But if you are in a BVR fight against an R-77 firing Flanker who has you at 2 to 4 times that distance.
 
Yes it is not the same methods.And we have others.
You assumption for Flanker is false.Rafale will not be detected at very long range by a Flanker in AtoA mission.Not with the current N011M Bars.Future version are said by Russian to be about 0,01 RCS at 80 km which would be more dangerous.Now, we will see.
 
Don't forgot we have interferometric digital RWR (only F22 has such a system now on production planes) with pin point accuracy, OSF and visible chanel with 80 km range.
All of those are well known for professional engineers who have done their search on french public documentation and know our technological level.
Of course you could say, you could do it, but you don't have implemented yet.
Yes, exact performance are not public, I agree.
 
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