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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:12:25 PM















































































There are a lot of things here that looks wrong to me.































































 































































StrategyPage is full of people who seems to draw wrong conclusions from prediction-less Rafale's current situation on the export market.





























































Herald















































That's just mean :P, ya gotta be able to play around (eh, mebbe u didn't mean me and some others).


























What are you talking about?







 







Herald





















Oh, you were just slagging our useles
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:13:52 PM

Hmmm, I guess I've been semi-trolling lately as well, trying to pound through his armour or use psychological pressure to dislodge him from here.

Oh well, it's for a good cause. If I've crossed the line of trolling and get suspended or banned I'll save a few hours a week.



Not that hitting BW back is really more than semi-trolling... I can't stand his posts any longer.
 
Oh, thanks for the request. It's a great idea! I'll make a thread on Pakistan straight away.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:15:04 PM

Signing out and sorry to all for multiposting (I claim the usual innocence due long ago mentioned factors (though maybe I should work on finding some solution without edit).

 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:21:59 PM




 



Here I was trying to find out what you meant.  



 



Herald







Actual attempt to answer post clearly:
 
I was reading your disputations vis a vis Seagull. I read that you both thought posters here at SP are very often bonkers or plain bored, and while I agree with this statement intensely in some cases I also agree with it widely generally AND in my own case. Thus, a feeling of inferiority, and while knowing that the comments addressed by both (well, by you, I think Seagull actually did) were not meant to hit the general SP public in a derogatory fashion (at least not hard) I still chose to pedantically seperate the two different subgroups of idiotic (well actually I did that quite a few times for fun myself) and simply speculative/-playful post.
 
It's just me being hypersensitive, nevermind it!
 
And I might have to wait a day with that Topic. Sorry, real tired. Plus I'd have to work on it.
 
Uhm, for a fast link, read Longwarjournal.org ... I don't like the writer but he's a good guy and he's 60% of my sources. 'S real good. Tells the truth about Pakistan.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:26:25 PM
I'd say 90% except he gets one thing wrong somewhat badly. Islam (religion is another focus of mine), he's not PC but very socio-scientific and military scientific in his approach, but he goes too easy on Islam.
 
It's fair enough that there are people just as bad as the radical muslims, but that doesn't change Islam's warlike, ultra-conservative nature.
 
Other than that he's bang on the buck and linked to 30% of my other sources.
 
Really, Longwarjournal.org is the shizz.
You could fry a dime on its accuracy.
 
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lurker       5/17/2009 9:15:27 PM
cwDeici,  you've just taken up a full page of posts there!!!
 
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Bluewings12       5/17/2009 9:48:48 PM
I don 't have time to answer everybody , sorry in advance .
French posters on SP spend 95% of their time correcting the various and numerous mistake made by posters who do not know the Rafale and its armory .
 
Sometimes the mistakes are so basic that it forces us to repeat 1000 times the same thing . Exemple : I read that some posters are making a difference in between the EM Mica and the IR Mica . Beside the seeker , there is none . In fact , you unscrew the EM head and you screw an IR head , it is as simple as that : it is the same missile with the same max range of about 80km . As you know , ASRAAM , AIM-9s , Python , Archer , etc , can 't kill a target at more than 30km and in the best case scenario .
 
So why a long range IR missile should be more dangerous than an EM missile ? I shouln 't have to answer that as the reasons are obvious !
To start with , some posters should now that when you 're equipped with active BVR missiles (fire and forget) you do not need to "paint" the adverse fighter with your radar , a quick 'pass' is more than enough to get a missile off the rail . If the opposition is equipped with decent RWR , the thing will go "bleep" for a split second , then nothing after just silence . As a pilot , this is worrying but not too much . Sure , somebody has probably seen you but did not lock you . Unfortunatly for you , a missile is already coming .
Obviously , Pilots nowadays know that a simple "radar pass" is enough to fire an active BVR missile in anger , so the best they have to do is to break straight away just in case . Some other Pilots will wait and see if they get seen again (RWR going "bleep" again) or even wait for the RWR to go berserk because it did spot a fast closing EM missile going "live" . Here time is short , the Pilot should have moved earlier to try not to be in the missile seeker cone when it goes live .
Now , imagine that the BVR missile is an IR missile . You did get a "bleep" from your RWR then nothing . 1.54 minute later , you and your aircraft simply disapear from the radars , you 're gone . You did not even see the thing who killed you .
Then , there is the problem to hide from such missiles , having a RCS of 0.0000000000000001 square meter will not help at all . 
 
The Russians have long range IR missiles and the Chineses , well ...
IR Mica is not alone in the field ...
 
(More later)
 
Cheers . 
 
 
 
 
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Slim Pickinz       5/17/2009 10:21:46 PM
CW can you tone down your posting? Or at least consolidate your opinions into fewer posts? It's almost becoming a spamming issue. Seriously.
 
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DarthAmerica       5/18/2009 12:39:24 AM

I don 't have time to answer everybody , sorry in advance .

French posters on SP spend 95% of their time correcting the various and numerous mistake made by posters who do not know the Rafale and its armory .

 

Sometimes the mistakes are so basic that it forces us to repeat 1000 times the same thing . Exemple : I read that some posters are making a difference in between the EM Mica and the IR Mica . Beside the seeker , there is none . In fact , you unscrew the EM head and you screw an IR head , it is as simple as that : it is the same missile with the same max range of about 80km . As you know , ASRAAM , AIM-9s , Python , Archer , etc , can 't kill a target at more than 30km and in the best case scenario .


 

So why a long range IR missile should be more dangerous than an EM missile ? I shouln 't have to answer that as the reasons are obvious !


To start with , some posters should now that when you 're equipped with active BVR missiles (fire and forget) you do not need to "paint" the adverse fighter with your radar , a quick 'pass' is more than enough to get a missile off the rail . If the opposition is equipped with decent RWR , the thing will go "bleep" for a split second , then nothing after just silence . As a pilot , this is worrying but not too much . Sure , somebody has probably seen you but did not lock you . Unfortunatly for you , a missile is already coming .

Obviously , Pilots nowadays know that a simple "radar pass" is enough to fire an active BVR missile in anger , so the best they have to do is to break straight away just in case . Some other Pilots will wait and see if they get seen again (RWR going "bleep" again) or even wait for the RWR to go berserk because it did spot a fast closing EM missile going "live" . Here time is short , the Pilot should have moved earlier to try not to be in the missile seeker cone when it goes live .


Now , imagine that the BVR missile is an IR missile . You did get a "bleep" from your RWR then nothing . 1.54 minute later , you and your aircraft simply disapear from the radars , you 're gone . You did not even see the thing who killed you .


Then , there is the problem to hide from such missiles , having a RCS of 0.0000000000000001 square meter will not help at all . 

 

The Russians have long range IR missiles and the Chineses , well ...

IR Mica is not alone in the field ...

 

(More later)


 

Cheers . 


 

 

 BW,
 
A lot is going on in the time it takes any missile to fly several tens of km. How is the IR missile being kept aware of that AFTER it leaves the firing platform and BEFORE it has acquired the target? Simply detecting something does not complete the kill chain BW. If IR missiles had that much of an advantage then they would be in much more wide spread use. A long range IR missile is still going to need the aircraft to cue it until the terminal phase with FC quality data otherwise it/s not going to know where to look when it gets there. IRST are not superior in this regard to Radar and certainly don't offer the range or resolution. Also, look at modern stealth aircraft. All of them have comprehensive IR signature management. So the effectiveness against them will also be reduced.

Look at history. F-117s have been flying in the face of IR guided threats for decades. ZERO effectiveness. Why in your mind is this so revolutionary?

 
 
Look at the nose. Nothing is new about that. If you want new...



Rufus       5/18/2009 2:03:12 AM
"I don 't have time to answer everybody , sorry in advance .
French posters on SP spend 95% of their time correcting the various and numerous mistake made by posters who do not know the Rafale and its armory ."
 
It is scary to think that you actually believe you are correcting other posters.  I have seen several posters here who seem to know what they are talking about, and none of them are you.
 
"Sometimes the mistakes are so basic that it forces us to repeat 1000 times the same thing . Exemple : I read that some posters are making a difference in between the EM Mica and the IR Mica . Beside the seeker , there is none . In fact , you unscrew the EM head and you screw an IR head , it is as simple as that : it is the same missile with the same max range of about 80km . As you know , ASRAAM , AIM-9s , Python , Archer , etc , can 't kill a target at more than 30km and in the best case scenario ."


Mica at 80km?  You clearly have zero practical experience whatsoever.  If you did you would know that that is the worst sort of marketing claim, an absolute best case scenario where everything goes right.  Even against an unaware target, a shot like that with a Mica would require a perfect set-up.
 
Although the booster and control section of the Mice IR is the same as the Mice EM, its range is far shorter because it flies a different profile because of the far less capable seeker.  A Mica IR flies a flight profile similar to what an active radar guided missile flies when it is in home on jam mode and has a range similar to that of other IR missiles for that reason.
 
The Mica's booster is not really that much bigger than other IR missiles and the Mica IR's range is only slightly longer than most other next generation IR missiles.
 
Mica, 112 Kg
Python-5, 104Kg
AA-11, 105Kg
Aim-9x, 85Kg
 
The Mica is slightly larger than its competitors, which does impact its agility, but it is not far larger, especially when you consider its relatively heavy casing, control surfaces and warhead.  An 80km shot with a Mica IR is pure fantasy.  France does not have magic pixie dust that allows its missiles to fly twice as far with only a few extra pounds of propellant.
  
Have you considered that if you find yourself repeating something 1000 times to people who actually know what they are talking about YOU are the one who doesn't understand what is going on?  This certainly seems to be the case.
 
So why a long range IR missile should be more dangerous than an EM missile ? I shouln 't have to answer that as the reasons are obvious !

So obvious ____ forces have bought the Mica IR.  (Fill in the blank bluewings!)  Most top tier airforces already have an IR missile that gives them 90% of the range of  a Mica IR, but with better performance at short range.  That is why there is so little demand for the Mica IR.

"To start with , some posters should now that when you 're equipped with active BVR missiles (fire and forget) you do not need to "paint" the adverse fighter with your radar , a quick 'pass' is more than enough to get a missile off the rail . If the opposition is equipped with decent RWR , the thing will go "bleep" for a split second , then nothing after just silence . As a pilot , this is worrying but not too much . Sure , somebody ha
 
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