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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 6:48:21 PM

You know , buying an aircraft is not the same than buying a car .

When you go to Chrysler , Toyota , Nissan , Chevrolet , Renault , Saab , Ford , etc , the only pressure you have is your wallet ~your banker~ (and your wife) .

Basically , you can choose the car you like because it is the thing you want and it does look great on the leaflet and the ride you had was impressive , so you go for it . Bravo , you probably chosen the best car for you !


But you can 't buy an aircraft the same way if your are DoD because the aircraft you like is not the one chosen by the money holders . You are the DoD (the customer) , but nobody cares . Politicals decided for you ...


I know , we had the same people here in France a short while ago .


 

All of this to say that as a customer , the best car you could get (sorry , aircraft) was the Rafale . As a customer , I see :

-1) this is the best on paper and during evaluation at the time being and for the foreseeable futur .


-2) The French themselves are buying the F3 version so I can count on a good customer support

-3) their technology transfert is interesting and fair


-4) the price is higher than planned but not by much

-5) I like the French accent and my wife too :-)


 

In all fairness , 300 Rafales or so should have been sold by now on quality alone . Now , you dare asking why the USA wanted to stop Dassault ??? Are you blind or what ?! Think about the money involved .............


You can post as much as you want to defend the F-teens , your enginereers and your political themselves know that the Rafale is the better aircraft and it is why they conducted such an agressive war on Rafale . They did well .


The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .

 

Cheers .




Wow. I was batting a 1000 a few days ago. You DID resort to 'economic conspiracy' after 'political conspiracy', I'm breathless in anticipation of page 11 to see if u start argueing why it's superior again!
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 6:50:05 PM

You know , buying an aircraft is not the same than buying a car .

When you go to Chrysler , Toyota , Nissan , Chevrolet , Renault , Saab , Ford , etc , the only pressure you have is your wallet ~your banker~ (and your wife) .

Basically , you can choose the car you like because it is the thing you want and it does look great on the leaflet and the ride you had was impressive , so you go for it . Bravo , you probably chosen the best car for you !


But you can 't buy an aircraft the same way if your are DoD because the aircraft you like is not the one chosen by the money holders . You are the DoD (the customer) , but nobody cares . Politicals decided for you ...


I know , we had the same people here in France a short while ago .


 

All of this to say that as a customer , the best car you could get (sorry , aircraft) was the Rafale . As a customer , I see :

-1) this is the best on paper and during evaluation at the time being and for the foreseeable futur .


-2) The French themselves are buying the F3 version so I can count on a good customer support

-3) their technology transfert is interesting and fair


-4) the price is higher than planned but not by much

-5) I like the French accent and my wife too :-)


 

In all fairness , 300 Rafales or so should have been sold by now on quality alone . Now , you dare asking why the USA wanted to stop Dassault ??? Are you blind or what ?! Think about the money involved .............


You can post as much as you want to defend the F-teens , your enginereers and your political themselves know that the Rafale is the better aircraft and it is why they conducted such an agressive war on Rafale . They did well .


The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .

 

Cheers .




*sigh* I hope you leave the board.
 
Here you call your fellow posters nationalities 'sluts and thieves', ok, got on the wheels for my general complaint of ill faith.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 6:52:47 PM
(Yes I'm adhd and Asbergers so I get a bit obsessive.)
 

And at some point I suppose you said France is conservative, which I suppose you meant fiscally (except you're not compared to your neighbors), because socially you're not. And France is known as the land of acceptable sexual peccadiloes, so you're throwing stones in a glass house... didn't you just make some tasteless joke about 'penetrating your girlfriend' relating to some argument about planes?
 
... what kind of people argue that their plane is prettier... not in this thread.... I think... just something I remembered...
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 6:55:32 PM

 
I don 't even understand why they beat around the bush ...

 

Cheers .
And you're never going to understand, because you're completely unable to accept a reality you hate.
 
(next post)
It's true they're not too good at business, but on the other hand they had lots of support from state.


 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:00:33 PM

Herald :

""(me) The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .
 You're right, not sluts and thieves -- just incompetent at business.""

 

Thank you , I take it as a compliment . The rest of your post clearly shows that you do not want to talk about the USA deal to Marocco ...


 

Cheers .




Oh right, another pillar... anytime someone doesn't answer assume you're 100% correct.
Nevermind that you didn't answer why France cut budgets despite being better off than other countries not cutting fighter production (like Russia and the smaller cuts made in the US) because they couldn't have been 'intimidated by the enemy who lets us test our planes on their land carrier landings (whatever's the name)). Cue economic conspiracy.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:02:25 PM
The idea that the Anglo-American is actively working against the Rafale is not insane, it is just unlikely.
I'm sure you're in denial about this too BW, but FRANCE is the NATO nation with a history of espionage and even outright sabotage.
 
Tank Range Incident for one famous example (Challenger, Leapord and LeClerc)
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:03:17 PM
With a SIGNIFICANT history that is, among the major nations. Certainly others have as well, but I've heard more about France.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:06:31 PM

Herald :

""(me) The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .
 You're right, not sluts and thieves -- just incompetent at business.""

 

Thank you , I take it as a compliment . The rest of your post clearly shows that you do not want to talk about the USA deal to Marocco ...


 

Cheers .





And now I looked more closely at his post, HE DID answer it, just not directly.
... Think for a while after reading someone's post... it'll help. Sometimes people need more time to take it in, some more than others.
 
Think for one thing about all the help France gets from the USA. France has seen much more success in the past. Why would a helpful US want to grind France's nose into the dust? The US and France have been much worse off than in recent years. Like when France left NATO and made nukes.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:13:24 PM

As it is now , the Rafale is perfectly fitting the FAF and the MN and could also fit any other airforce with a territory much bigger than France , it has the legs .





It is now in its F3 version and in 3 years time , the Rafale program will be completed . Typhoon and Gripen are slowly getting multi-role and are flying real A2A CAPs . F-35 is still a prototype with some problems .


 

Rafale has been operational for over 6 years , the jet has participated at real war operations for over 3 years , it has successfully demonstrated its ability to fight in various missions and meetings and more importantly , the French Rafale Drivers are at least 5 to 8 years ahead of any Typhoon , Gripen , F-35 driver in operational terms , to say the least . Think about it Gentlemen and appreciate the difference ...


 

Cheers .


 


 
 
... mmmm.... what a meaninful pause. Are we supposed to reflect and overcome our prejudices so that in three years we can join you in blaming other countries and the economy (politicians) and the occasional beurocratic stinge for the AWESOME success that will FAIL to materialize when your program is completed?
 
Any third rate country can build a plane and send it to a war and bomb something for NATO, Albania will soon.  Pay attention to the fact that your Rafales often need support on their missions, missions which are none too complicated.

 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:18:41 PM


I appreciate the fact that the Rafale needed a 30 year old Super Etendard to lase its targets for it.



I also appreciate the fact that the Typhoon, the Gripen, and the F-35 have a hell of a lot more export sales than the Rafale does.




Which sales?

For Gripen,  Sweden leases 28 of the aircraft, including four two-seaters, to the Czech and Hungarian Air Forces.

Not a sale but a lease of Swedish aircraft.

Gripen has won only in South Africa (against M2000-5) and Thailand (no french aircraft proposal)

Less than 40 aircafts sold.

We have sold more than 150 aircraft of its closer competitor (M2000-5/9)

 

Typhoon

Austrian sales were those of Luftwaffe which is the mother air force of Austrian air force (we could wonder if Austrian army see it self as something else than an extention of german armed forces).No french aircraft were even proposed  (and some Austrian officer regretted we did not propose M2000-5).

Sales to saudia arabia are purely political.Saudis give its air force budget only to USA or Britain since half a century to reward them (and give its navy budget to France).Saudi air force is a joke and only a symbolic force.Real defense is done by USA, UK mainly and France (so it is why we were in the Gulf war).

 

To summarize, Gripen and Eurofighter sales are marginal.

 

 

 







 


This makes sense.
I don't agree with it, at least about the Eurofighter, but it makes sense.
 
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