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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.
 
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DarthAmerica       5/18/2009 3:13:17 PM
Phaid posted this before about passive interception...

Meanwhile, the Rafale's ability to shoot down an enemy aircraft using only passive detection was demonstrated for the first time in October, says Chaltiel. Two aircraft flew "several miles apart", the first using electronic support measures to monitor the target and communicate its track via Link 16 datalink to the second Rafale. The second aircraft also passively tracked the target using its infrared search and track system and was able to achieve a lock-on by sending "a few pulses" from its laser rangefinder. The enemy aircraft was then "shot down" using an MBDA "Mica-type" air-to-air missile with an active seeker that became effective at a range of around 18km (10nm), says Chaltiel. "It is possible now to have a fully passive detection capability and shoot down enemy aircraft without transmitting a single emission from the aircraft," says Chaltiel. 

...Note the range and the methods. This is not the same as shooting a missile 80km totally passive. This method is useful. Certainly stealthy against most targets. But if you are in a BVR fight against an R-77 firing Flanker who has you at 2 to 4 times that distance. You are not going to survive using this method. He will have several firing opportunities and you will have to defend your aircraft. If you wish to shoot back at range you will have to use RADAR.

-DA 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 3:13:50 PM
USA have their magic silver bullet and it is the F22.
Best fighter platform in world and we recognize it
 
Now Rafale F3 PLUS Mica IR is the second one (with PESA only and wull be better with AESA) and to F22 only, and we would be pleased if you recognize it because it is the true and I think to be insulted as a french engineer when you deny us this achievment.
We do not currently produce a lot of weapons within a 2% GDP defense budget, but we succeeded well in maintaining our technological capabilities.
 
Second one? Second one what?  It sure as heck isn't the second best in air-to-air.  The Rafale is a good performer, but it isn't even in the same contest with aircraft like the Eurofighter, Super Hornet, F-15 or F-35.  All of the above have far more capable radars, self protection jammers, and more capable missiles.
 
You do get a fair bit out of your available resources, but not half as much as you seem to wish you did.  You should be proud that your country was able to produce a competitive aircraft domestically, that is no simple task.  You need to give up on this childish claims of superiority and nutty assertions about weapons capabilities.
 

 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 3:24:22 PM
"MICA IR is no different in concept from the other IR BVR weapons out there."
 There is no IR BVR weapons on the market.Russian had tried but they are inferior on seeker due to lack of avalability of latest state of the art IR CCD chips and it does not work well.
I do not say it has 99% PK at 80 km, because it is not true.Let say it has maybe similar Pk than RF version with advantage of silent approach.
 
The demands of a short range AAM are obviously different since the maneuvers at close range tend to be much more violent. So MICA has to have the authority to make those violent maneuvers which its wings and TV give it.
Its size and weight is close to Python V, and like you said, it has vector trust
BTW give a look to ASRAAM.
 
At long range, the missiles TV and Wings are a penalty as weight(Gravity) and drag take affect.
No since wings are short (it is mainly a lifting body),
The drag take effect is proportional in first order to remaining surface/remaining weight
remaining weight of mica is smaller than AMRAAM so the ratio is similar.
Don't forgot that missiles (unless they have stato) are not properlled during all flight but only on initial part.
TVC remove a little specific energy but few.
 
Since it isn't as big as other BVR missiles it's range is shorter.
No for the reasons I said
 
  Its a compromise design that offers more flexibility but at a price.
Don"t forgot that MICA is more recent technology than initial AMRAAM A/B
Of course AMRAAM have been improved since but remain a pure BVR missile(the seeker is lighter than A/B versions, better in ECCM and range and take less place so it allowed extension of powder engine in the D version for exemple).
Of  course if USA start a new development I have no doubt they could do better than Mica.
NOW the draw back of MICA is its price when used in WVR as it cost four time the cost of a AIM9X.
MICA is not as good of a BVR weapon as AMRAAM
I would say close to AMRAAM C (probably inferior in range) but not D obviously which has greater range than MICA.
It is why we participate to Meteor.
 
 or R-77 which are purpose built.
Give me a break with Russians.Not bad but not at MICA or AMRAAM-C level.In electronic they are a little backward.
R77 is probably closer to a AMRAAMC in range but with a AMRAAM A/B seeker.
However new versions would be of course more dangerous and they are planning a IR seeker also (when they would have ne needed captor).
 
 
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Herald12345    Falsehoods   5/18/2009 3:29:19 PM

Please somebody correct me if i'm wrong.

The SU-30mki vs the Rafale

Radar- Sukhoi, N011-M PESA more powerful than RBE2  Correct.

Range- Sukhoi by a long shot  Toss up. The Rafale can use a belly tank .

A2A /BVR- Sukhoi's R-77, together with its radar outclass the Rafale.  Probably: if the Russians ever train their client state pilots to use the combo properly the way the Russians know its supposed to be used.. Otherwise its a no contest exercise.  French pilots are just too good for the average Ethiopian to exploit his look frst advantage. 

A2A/WVR- Sukhois HMD, with the R-73 give it the edge. Close in: YES. The R-73 is DEADLY.

Paylod- Sukhoi. True.

Engines- Sukhois AL-31 more powerful than Rafales M88.  Acceleration gamma is a question mark..

Speed- Sukhoi:  Depends on what you mean. Clean or cluttered? Burdened? What fuel fraction? What altitude?

RCS- Rafale Clean or cluttered?"

ECM- close with the SU-30MKI with its western systems, but I will give it to the Rafale. Nope> parity or Sukhoi better-especially if the Israelis and Italians did the avionics workup.  Dassault and THALES  stinks when it comes to this.

More surviveable against ground threats- Rafale. True.

Better deep pentration strike fighter- Rafale. True until the standoff weapons are gone.

Now this establishes that the Rafale is a better strike aircraft and a bit more surviveable but there is no way that this bird is a better A2A/ BVR fighter.

The problem is that the French rely on good piloting and a small standoff weapon inventory to make up for an otherwise average bomb truck's shortcomings.  This thing is NOT a true air superiority fighter.  Its a fair to good strike bird

 

 

 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 3:33:36 PM
This is not the same as shooting a missile 80km totally passive. This method is useful. Certainly stealthy against most targets. But if you are in a BVR fight against an R-77 firing Flanker who has you at 2 to 4 times that distance.
 
Yes it is not the same methods.And we have others.
You assumption for Flanker is false.Rafale will not be detected at very long range by a Flanker in AtoA mission.Not with the current N011M Bars.Future version are said by Russian to be about 0,01 RCS at 80 km which would be more dangerous.Now, we will see.
 
Don't forgot we have interferometric digital RWR (only F22 has such a system now on production planes) with pin point accuracy, OSF and visible chanel with 80 km range.
All of those are well known for professional engineers who have done their search on french public documentation and know our technological level.
Of course you could say, you could do it, but you don't have implemented yet.
Yes, exact performance are not public, I agree.
 
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Lynstyne       5/18/2009 3:37:07 PM
Herald
 
At the risk of adding fuel to the fire and providing more ammunition for the banal - uber missile combines two roles without compromising either role- argument.
 
and please forgive me if i sprang a herald trap.
 
BW and FS maintain that to swap IR to RF roles is just a seeker swap.
 
You have stated this isnt the case as a different flight profile is required thus software package.
 
My field of relative (in)expertise is aircraft maintenance and systems design and antegration and consequently i know little about missiles. so to me it isnt inconceivable that the seeker unit and brain could be a combined plug and play asembly.
 
Or more simply (and to my mind effectively) both flight profiles could be loaded and the appropriate mode selected by pin configuration of the seeker. This method is used to configure a fair amount of Avionic equiptment to aircraft types and configurations.
 
Is this not posible in a missile system (perhaps space constraints limit memory space) - asking as you certainly appear to have more knowledge on this subject than i.
 
 
Regards
 
 
 
 
 
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Lynstyne       5/18/2009 3:37:11 PM
Herald
 
At the risk of adding fuel to the fire and providing more ammunition for the banal - uber missile combines two roles without compromising either role- argument.
 
and please forgive me if i sprang a herald trap.
 
BW and FS maintain that to swap IR to RF roles is just a seeker swap.
 
You have stated this isnt the case as a different flight profile is required thus software package.
 
My field of relative (in)expertise is aircraft maintenance and systems design and antegration and consequently i know little about missiles. so to me it isnt inconceivable that the seeker unit and brain could be a combined plug and play asembly.
 
Or more simply (and to my mind effectively) both flight profiles could be loaded and the appropriate mode selected by pin configuration of the seeker. This method is used to configure a fair amount of Avionic equiptment to aircraft types and configurations.
 
Is this not posible in a missile system (perhaps space constraints limit memory space) - asking as you certainly appear to have more knowledge on this subject than i.
 
 
Regards
 
 
 
 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 3:42:32 PM
 
"MICA IR is not cleared for export as too sensitive. "
 
 "D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.
It is a french silver bullet."
 
 
Hey Mr Pretend Expert,
 
Have anything to say about your earlier lies about the Mica IR being your super secret "silver bullet" and not cleared for export?
 
h*tp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HAF_Mirage_2000-5_.jpg 
 
h*tp://tinyurl.com/qkaktv
 
h*tp://www.deagel.com/news/Hellenic-Air-Force-Orders-Mica-and-Scalp-EG-Missiles_n000000177.aspx

Kinda funny how an "expert" on French missiles like you thinks the missile isn't cleared for export when in fact that missile is widely known to already be in the air with the Greek Airforce don't you think?
 
Seems to me that someone with your "expertise" would already know that wouldn't they?
 
Like I said earlier, with only 5 Mica customers how do you lose track of one?  How is it that an obvious "expert" like yourself is so sure the Mica IR isn't even available for export when in fact it was exported YEARS ago?
 
You are a fake, we all know it.  Save yourself some time and energy and stop trying to convince people you are something you clearly aren't.  I have met and worked with the real thing, and it ain't you.
 

 
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 3:47:09 PM
Eurofighter, Super Hornet, F-15 or F-35.  All of the above have far more capable radars, self protection jammers, and more capable missiles.
For the radar, Eurofighter, Super Hornet AESA , F-15 or F-35 have currently a longuer range radar.Not necessarly better on ECM or modes at shorter range.
Corrected once Rafale get AESA vs Eurofighter, Super Hornet AESA , F-15 or F-35 in range.
F35 and Rafale AESA will be available the same year in 2011.
Now for today Rafale, beat Eurofighter by RCS and ECM, and see F15 much before, due to current F15 RCS (except if you speak about silent Eagle which is not available).
To beat a plane which has 1/50th RCS you need a radar 2,65 time better in range.It is basic radar equation.
And even latest version of F15 AESA radar are not 2,65 time better in range
For the jammer no way.Only Rafale has such a (costly) jammer because it is part of the system.
 
Rafale is entirely designed around its jammer.
Without it, it is a plane similar of F18E as a platform in BVR (while superior in WVR manoeuvrability), with an inferior radar for now (F18E has longuer radar range currently),
It is a huge problem for Rafale export now since  foreign clients certainly do not benefit of french jammer (or RCS) or have to believe us while they have no idea of F35 or Pakfa so prefer to wait.
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica    Math FS   5/18/2009 3:55:32 PM
This is not the same as shooting a missile 80km totally passive. This method is useful. Certainly stealthy against most targets. But if you are in a BVR fight against an R-77 firing Flanker who has you at 2 to 4 times that distance.

Yes it is not the same methods.And we have others.

You assumption for Flanker is false.Rafale will not be detected at very long range by a Flanker in AtoA mission.Not with the current N011M Bars.Future version are said by Russian to be about 0,01 RCS at 80 km which would be more dangerous.Now, we will see.

Don't forgot we have interferometric digital RWR (only F22 has such a system now on production planes) with pin point accuracy, OSF and visible chanel with 80 km range.

All of those are well known for professional engineers who have done their search on french public documentation and know our technological level.

Of course you could say, you could do it, but you don't have implemented yet.

Yes, exact performance are not public, I agree.


FS,

Put in the data for combat configured Rafale vs Sukhoi and tell me what you get...

Range2 x (RCS1/RCS2)^.25=Range1


-DA 
 
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french stratege       5/18/2009 4:02:07 PM
I wrote
D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.Of course, our best Gulf ally (i.e UAE) , we have a strategic alliance with ,  is a special case as Greece a NATO country where we try to shift balance vs Turkey in our favor (including then case we would need Greec Cyprus part).
They are simply our two best allies for action in oriental med or Gulf.
Now MICA IR export clearance could be lowered in coming years.
 
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warpig       5/18/2009 4:02:59 PM
Gawd!  That the two of you can still spew such crap today, after all the time and effort we've taken over the last few years to explain in detail how wrong you are about so many things, is absolutely incredible.  You appear to be congenitally incapable of learning anything related to airpower.  At least it looks like SYSOPS pulled the plug on that big dick, PlG, or else this farcical travesty would be a festival of insults even more than it already is.
 
Rufus, you are by no means the only professional here, both from inside DoD and from industry, but your handle is new here so you may not be aware of all the history behind engaging these couple of zealots.  Please believe me when I tell you the sad truth that this thread is not an anomoly, but actually is par for the course when the French get involved in any aircraft-related discussion.  As you realized, there is so much to correct that you almost can't pick just any one place to start.  It's just as well if you don't, since it would do no good and within a few months or weeks they'll just make the same absurd claims again.
 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 4:14:11 PM
You guys are absolute fruitloops.
 
I mean honestly, have you ever taken the time to read even a basic book on air combat or do you just read fan message boards all day long?
 
 
To summarize,
 
You think a Rafale is going to be able to just fly along, line up an absolutely perfect shot against a target that has no clue it is there, briefly range it with your radar, before lobbing a missile well beyond its effective range... and have that missile magically find its way to a target that is just happily flying along totally clueless.
 
Repeat after me.  The Rafale is not a stealth aircraft.  It isn't even the stealthiest of the available 4th generation aircraft.  Any high-end enemy will detect the Rafale with either its onboard radar or with something like an AWACS long before the Rafale is able to line up its perfect shot.
 
Second off, long range lob shots are absolutely not the Mica's strong suit.  By the standards of a BVR weapon it is short ranged, especially in its IR version.
 
Third off, the Rafale itself has one of the shortest ranged radars of any fighter currently in production. Any late model SU-27/F-15/SH/EF/Mig-31 will easily detect it first, and we aren't talking about slightly.  This has already been discussed publically more than once by pilots involved in exercises, french industry insiders, and potential export customers.
 
Finally, Rafale's self protection jammer is a rather sub-par performer and relies and obsolete MMICs and computers.  Spectra is unable to cope with rapidly shifting LPI signals and instead is forced to resort to simplistic noise techniques.  It doesn't even have a towed decoy.  If it had come out on time, 10 years ago, it would have been competitive.  Just like the Rafale.
 
 
 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 4:18:39 PM
"D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.Of course, our best Gulf ally (i.e UAE) , we have a strategic alliance with ,  is a special case as Greece a NATO country where we try to shift balance vs Turkey in our favor (including then case we would need Greec Cyprus part).
They are simply our two best allies for action in oriental med or Gulf.
Now MICA IR export clearance could be lowered in coming years."
 
 LMAO!
 
Is that the best you can do?  First you claim that it is French only and isn't cleared for export. 
 
Now look how quickly you change your story when you realize what a fool you have made of yourself!
 
Just go ahead and admit what we all already know.  You are a fake and didn't even know your favorite missile had already been exported. 
 
"MICA IR is not cleared for export as too sensitive. "
 
 "D: MICA IR is not for export to everybody since too sensitive and too dangerous against western air forces.
It is a french silver bullet.""
 
 
LOL

 
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Rufus       5/18/2009 4:20:00 PM
"Rufus, you are by no means the only professional here, both from inside DoD and from industry, but your handle is new here so you may not be aware of all the history behind engaging these couple of zealots.  Please believe me when I tell you the sad truth that this thread is not an anomoly, but actually is par for the course when the French get involved in any aircraft-related discussion.  As you realized, there is so much to correct that you almost can't pick just any one place to start.  It's just as well if you don't, since it would do no good and within a few months or weeks they'll just make the same absurd claims again."
 
I see
 
What a waste.
 
 I will look back at some of the old threads.
 
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