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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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Rufus       5/9/2009 7:21:02 PM
"mine is made of pictures and pdf."
 
Pictures you don't even understand!
 
Why don't you explain why the MMICs in the Rafale's self protection jammer can't slide their bandwidth window fast enough to cover threats operating in multiple regions of the X band simultaneously since you are such an expert and have found some PDFs on the internet?
 
While you are at it, why don't you explain why it is necessary for Spectra to use that sort of time sharing in the first place rather than transmitters that could simultaneously operate across the entire threat spectrum?
 

 
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Bluewings12       5/9/2009 7:41:49 PM
""What 's wrong with the Rafale ?""
 
Since someone is asking , I will let myself go . I will not talk about what I would like the Rafale to be , but about its real shortcomings and they are numerous . Yep , BW is going to bash the Rafale where it hurts :-)
 
-1) The aircraft 's RCS with submunitions and tanks is worse than expected .
This is less stealthier than what we planned :
h*tp://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6687/02124t.jpg
With such a load , a Flanker can detect the Rafale at over 200km . This is not what I call "discreet"

-2) The wings do NOT fold on the Navy version (Rafale M) . Big mistake because of added cost , just stupid ...
The CdG could have 6 to 8 more Rafales onboard , as simple as that .

-3) The SPECTRA F3 software needs better AESA antennas but nothing is planned yet .

-4) The Damoclès fiasco ""right on time , I promissed"" they said , well piss poor job . Same with the new Rcco-NG Pod , we 're still waiting for it ...

-5) Rafale 's dash speed is only Mach 2 and its supercruise ability(?) is piss poor .

-6) The AESA RBE2 is coming too late and everything they say about "not having the proper Europeans factories" will not hide the fact that they scrumbled the program more than anything else . 

-7) If France would have put the money in , the METEOR should already be operational on the Rafale today .

-8) The aircraft should be 10% bigger .

-9) The aircraft is too much expensive (while you get a very efficient system)

-10) The IRST Blk-2 is a fiasco on the road map if there is one .  Raf F1s : none , Raf F2s : yes , Raf F3s : none , Raf F4s : yes . Utter non sense ...
I prefer to stop there or I will get angry .

Cheers .
 
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Beazz       5/9/2009 8:18:07 PM


A picture is worth ...(etc) . Clearly , the Rafale and the F-35 have the best cocpkits while the Rafale hasn 't got any problem with its ejection seat which is not the case with the prototypes of the F-35 ...




Cheers .

 
Actually BW, no, a pic is not in this case. I'm no cockpit guru, but I do understand a bit about *displays*. I'll agree with you that from a purely *looks* standpoint the Rafael cockpit displays are very nice. But that simply means nothing really. A display is just that, something that shows the info that a computer processor is processiong. Those pretty color displays do not add anything whatsoever to what the Rafaels computers are doing or certainly have nothing to do with sensor fusion. They just show it.
It's like if I took my current 22" monitor and stuck it on my first pc which was a 486DX2 66mhz and took the 14" monitor I had on it and stuck it on my current PC running at 4.0ghz. Yea the 486 would now look a whole lot better, BUT it would still be that same old 486 piece of crap PC and not do one thing now that it didnt do then and my current smoker would still smoke, but just not look as sweet while doing it!! The capabilities of either machine would NOT change because of the display. It'sd the same way with the Rafale. A pretty color display (or several) does not make it any more capable BW. That old F15C with its old displays BUT a**kicking AESA's is still a force to contend with that the Rafale can only wish it had. No matter how it may look on a *display* .
 
That's my take on it anyhow and how I see you makin wayyyyyyyyy to much over the pretty colors info is displayed in.
 
Beazz

 
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Bluewings12       5/9/2009 8:29:09 PM
""Sensor fusion is about an aircraft's ability to merge all of its available inputs, both onboard and offboard into a single coherent picture of what is going on around it""
 
This is exactly what we are discussing  and there is enough available doc on the Net to prove that the Rafale is top notch in this regard . It might even be better than most think if you check the result of last year Tiger-Meet joint exercise . The foreign pilots were surprised not to hear the Rafale pilots on the Comms while the Rafales outsmarted aggressors and defenses . Ask yourself why Rufus ... Btw , they did the same in the last RedFlag while pounding the ground sites with AASMs . The French pilots don 't have a cristal ball Rufus , but an efficient system .
 
""Jets like the F-35 will keep continuous track files using all available sensors, IR with DAS and its IRST, Radar, passively with its EW system, and when available with offboard sensors like an AWACs or other F-35s.""
 
It is also what the Rafale , Typhoon , Gripen , F-22 , SU-27 , SU-30 , J-10 , Mig-35 , M2000-5 , etc , are doing , thank you .
Anything more obvious to say Rufus ???
But of course , some aircrafts do it better than others and as I said , the Rafale the F-35 are ahead .
 
""The Rafale was originally intended to be a single seat only aircraft, with the two seat version used only for training, but in testing it became obvious that a single pilot wouldn't be able to effectively handle the high workload imposed by the Rafale's man machine interface.""

lol ! What a pack of bulls !!! You know what , instead to answer your non sense , I let you die stupid .
 
""In a high threat environment the pilot was forced to continually manage the aircraft's various sensors to keep track of what was going on around him to the extent that he could hardly fly the plane.""
 
??? (lol !) Excuse me but the Rafale has (read my lips) the best autopilot there is around entirely managed through fusion sensors , the aircraft can decide on its own (if asked) to change course because SPECTRA or RBE2 detected a EW or IR threat . You don 't have a clue , do you ? This kind of system is not new in the FAF as the M2000-B (and N) already had a similar capability for  20 years , because 'Deep Penetration" is what we are good at and we are unmatched (my occasional gilrfriends are my witnesses , lol) .
 
""Why don't you explain why the MMICs in the Rafale's self protection jammer can't slide their bandwidth window fast enough to cover threats operating in multiple regions of the X band simultaneously since you are such an expert and have found some PDFs on the internet?""
 
No comment , we 're working on it and SP is not the place for . Just keep in mind that precise simultaneous multiple band jamming is highly difficult . As usual the processing power is not the bottleneck , the data exchange in real time is . Bragg Cells are helping a lot but Rafale indeed needs some better AESA ECM antennas ( as I said) .
 
""While you are at it, why don't you explain why it is necessary for Spectra to use that sort of time sharing in the first place rather than transmitters that could simultaneously operate across the entire threat spectrum?""
 
Because the SPECTRA F1 software did not call for it , now it is a different story and this is why the Rafale needs better AESA antennas again .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
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french stratege       5/9/2009 9:29:16 PM
I don't know why I should lose my time to debunk such a bullsh*t of a guy who has no idea of relative rank of countries
 
Just check in the table where US armed forces were seeking in 1997 (when Rafale was developping)  collaboration on military advanced technologies .It includes France for MMIC, infrared or optical signal processing.Not Israel. LOL
Israel is much less advanced than France (or even Britain) on ECM.
 
An other onsight from US point of view
 
ANd a last one
 
Just check number of time France appeared in the document, then Israel, as suppliers of US DoD critical technologies.
France is almost of most technological line!
 
LOL
 
The fact that France is by far the second most advanced nation on military technology just after USA on the only one to master almost all techs, is clearly acknowledged by Pentagon.
 
Don't waste your time: Rafale is the most advanced fighter in the world after best US fighter even it has been a little delayed to implement roadmap by a lack of funding
 
 
 
France invests in almost all areas of defense technology relevant to C4ISR. For decades, France has pursued an overall defense doctrine and procurement strategy that would provide independent and autonomous military capabilities. As a result, France is the only country other than the U.S. investing across the board in defense technologies
(page 24 of pdf or 14 of document)

In both deployed and planned systems, France possesses arguably the most advanced operational battlespace digitization program in Europe. (page 27 of pdf or 17 of document)

 
 
 
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french stratege       5/9/2009 9:36:14 PM
 
I don't know why I should lose my time to debunk such a bullsh*t of a guy who has no idea of relative military technological rank of other countries
 
I just prefer to cite US armed forces evaluations of foreign countries

ht*p://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/astmp/aE/index.html
 
Just check in the table in which countries US armed forces were seeking in 1997 (when Rafale was developping)  collaboration on military advanced technologies .It includes France for MMIC, infrared or optical signal processing for exemple.Not Israel. LOL
Israel is much less advanced than France (or even Britain) on ECM.
 
An other insight from US defense point of view
 
France invests in almost all areas of defense technology relevant to C4ISR. For decades, France has pursued an overall defense doctrine and procurement strategy that would provide independent and autonomous military capabilities. As a result, France is the only country other than the U.S. investing across the board in defense technologies
(page 24 of pdf or 14 of document)
In both deployed and planned systems, France possesses arguably the most advanced operational battlespace digitization program in Europe. (page 27 of pdf or 17 of document)
 
And a last one
 
Just check number of time France appeared in the document, then Israel, as suppliers of US DoD critical technologies.
France is almost in most technological lines!
 
LOL
 
The fact that France is by far the second most advanced nation on military technology just after USA, and the only one with USA to master almost all techs, is clearly acknowledged by Pentagon.
 
Don't waste your time: Rafale is the most advanced fighter in the world after best US fighter even it has been a little delayed to implement roadmap by a lack of funding
 
 
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DarthAmerica       5/9/2009 9:49:23 PM
The problem with the Rafale is that it is too late to the party and too costly. It's that simple. You cannot get a Rafale to do things you can get an F-16 to do. For instance, take a HAF, UAE or IDF/AF F-16 variant. No matter if the Rafale Fx version will eventually have some feature, the fact is when offered, they don't have it. Take AESA for instance or the ability to deploy JDAM and LGB independently. People want that. When you don't have it, they buy elsewhere and at 50% of the price of your less capable configuration. Now you have the F-35 entering the game. Its far more capable, still cheaper and comes with the capabilites forces want. If I order a Rafale, I have to wait some time to get an AESA. If I buy Suer Hornet or F-15/16, I get that now. If I buy Russian, I get feature complete hardware now and certainly at a better price. Rafales are great and I understand why France wants to maintain the capability to build their own fighter. That would be hard to reconstitute if the Rafale were gone. But outside of France, Rafales just cannot compete when it comes to features or price.


-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       5/9/2009 9:54:46 PM
Also, most countries who would buy a Rafale tend to fight alongside US forces. The Rafale went to market without the benefit of commonality with FEATURE COMPLETE NATO and US standards. Not having Link-16 or AMRAAMs for instance. I may want to buy your fighter, but if I have to fly and fight it along side USN Hornets, I matters to me that I can use US logistics for instance.

-DA 
 
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Herald12345    What is wrong with the Squall?   5/9/2009 10:30:00 PM
Nothing as long as you realize that it is a pedestrian bomb truck. (Think of a modernized Jaguar) It works fine for the role as the EU bombing plane of a mix that has Typhoon as the air superiority type.

But it has many defects:.
-The RBE2 radar leaks "Shoot me" sidelobe radio noise.
-The MICA missile fails totally as a dual use missile because the designers bungled the RH seeker and made the rocket too fat and massive for a decent IR missile. That cheaper IR version of MICA  is the most common type built for the AdA for a reason because the AdA has to have something that somewhat works even  poorly as a self defense missile (Matra MAGIC is getting long in the tooth)
-Poor construction finish of the plane. We built WW II aircraft with a better surface finish and thus less spikey radar return points!
 
Weak thrust output jet engines that burn out before they were expected too was a complete surpriuse to me a couple of years ago as I thouight the SNECMA part of the Dassault thieves brigade was actually fairly competent (they make good business jet engines). 
 
Then there is the OBSOLETE 1980 avionocs design architecture..
 
That more or less summarizes the current state of affairs with the Squall as it flies today. 

Herald
 
 
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french stratege       5/9/2009 10:46:39 PM
Darth
AESA radar production has started now for Rafale and first Rafale delivered with them are to be in 2011
USA started to deliver F18E with AESA few years ago and F35 is in preproduction.
And no non US aircraft have any AESA except Japanese F2 but radar is said to be poor for an AESA radar.
 
Now, we have a problem with ammunitions since Rafale is not compatible with JDAM or AMRAAM and french substitute for JDAM is 3 time more expensive even it is more performant (AASM)
LGB capability is not a priority for french air force Rafale currently, since Mirage 2000D are specialized for that.
 
But a customer would get it if he order it now like for the AESA radar: available on requirement.
For now french Rafale are specialized for AtoA , AASM and cruise missiles delivery.
Link 16 is a NATO system and for non NATO nation a datalink is available.
 
Rafale foreign client base is weaker than in the past since a lot of countries are involved in F35 and others wait to see what they should purchase.That is the main problem but whatever we will continue to develop the plane.
Rafale is proposed within the strategic partnership with Brazil along with an help to Brazil to develop SSN.Wait and see.
Now, Rafale is evolving and fit our needs and will evolve.
Rafale is among top priorities with SSN and C4ISR for our industrial defense base.
 
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