Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57   NEXT
french stratege       5/15/2009 7:28:59 AM
I appreciate the fact that the Rafale needed a 30 year old Super Etendard to lase its targets for it.

I also appreciate the fact that the Typhoon, the Gripen, and the F-35 have a hell of a lot more export sales than the Rafale does.

Which sales?
For Gripen,  Sweden leases 28 of the aircraft, including four two-seaters, to the Czech and Hungarian Air Forces.
Not a sale but a lease of Swedish aircraft.
Gripen has won only in South Africa (against M2000-5) and Thailand (no french aircraft proposal)
Less than 40 aircafts sold.
We have sold more than 150 aircraft of its closer competitor (M2000-5/9)
 
Typhoon
Austrian sales were those of Luftwaffe which is the mother air force of Austrian air force (we could wonder if Austrian army see it self as something else than an extention of german armed forces).No french aircraft were even proposed  (and some Austrian officer regretted we did not propose M2000-5).
Sales to saudia arabia are purely political.Saudis give its air force budget only to USA or Britain since half a century to reward them (and give its navy budget to France).Saudi air force is a joke and only a symbolic force.Real defense is done by USA, UK mainly and France (so it is why we were in the Gulf war).
 
To summarize, Gripen and Eurofighter sales are marginal.
 
 
 



 
 
Quote    Reply

Seagull       5/15/2009 7:33:35 AM
There are a lot of things here that looks wrong to me.
 
StrategyPage is full of people who seems to draw wrong conclusions from prediction-less Rafale's current situation on the export market.
 
"It doesn't sell, thus, it's crap".
Looks like intellectual laziness or utter provocation, both due to boredness in reaction to what some French members systematically try to do.
 
I'm French too.
 
The Rufus message ignores facts, ignores programme history, underestimate many systems, and attacks French because in 1983, they didn't make a F-35/22. This is quite insulting.
 
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.
Ok, but Rafale isn't the only one to have lost to F-15 in Korea and Singapore. Ok ?

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading.
Not very accurate, though the conclusion is ok. They lacked the MONEY.
Did you ever read about Rafale D ? History would tell you that the France asked Dassault to propose several level of stealth on Rafale, after the Rafale A.
The Rafale C01 was not the stealthier : it was a sufficient compromise (stealth/cost) regarding the requirements.
 With the event of F-117 during Gulf War, it had become obvious to everybody that RCS reduction was an absolute need.
 
US didn't have "sufficient vision of where future of fighter aviation was heading". They DEFINE it.
 
 
Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29.
No.
The catch-up for the F-16 was the M2000. Again, history would learn you that the M2000 is designed as a light fighter to beat the F-16, compete against F-16 on export market.
I'm not saying it succeeded in either of the goals. I'm just informing you about things you may have missed.
Rafale was to do much better than this. At the very begining, the project Rapace defined a highly maneuverable airframe, which became the ACX, etc. The target was obviously AT LEAST the M2000.
 
-ACX was not to replace only 30 years old designs. ACX (Rafale) was to replace EVERY fighter in France, including the M2000.-
 
 The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.
A fighter made to match the F-15 was the Mirage 4000.
Rafale is even newer. It's obvious that the problem does'nt come from the airframe. Then ?
 
Is the Rafale overpriced ? Comparing it with Typhoon for example proves that it isn't.
 
Why do you say it's overpriced ? Because it competes with older and upgraded design which are cheaper. 
What is the reason why it looses to F-15, and F-16 ?
-Price, ok ;
-Lies : Korea wasn't a proper competition. The second part proved it, even Eurofighter refused to compete because the F-15 had already won ;
-Confusion (Morocco : no comment).
 

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features.
Only makes sens when compared to F-22 and F-35.
Comparing Rafale with Super Hornet, Typhoon or Gripen would make your comment much uninteresting to the debate.
 
The Rafale
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Not a [art of the clown circus so I can reply with clear objectivity    5/15/2009 11:59:37 AM

There are a lot of things here that looks wrong to me.

 

StrategyPage is full of people who seems to draw wrong conclusions from prediction-less Rafale's current situation on the export market.

True. Most of them belong to that camp who are technically unqualified to hold an opinion on whether the sun will even appear tomorrow
 

"It doesn't sell, thus, it's crap"
 
The Rafale is not crap. It is a bomb truck.
 
Looks like intellectual laziness or utter provocation, both due to boredness in reaction to what some French members systematically try to do.

The qualified posters receive qualified answers., Some of us are just tired of the fanboys.
 
I'm French too.

I don't see that as a problem.

The Rufus message ignores facts, ignores programme history, underestimate many systems, and attacks French because in 1983, they didn't make a F-35/22. This is quite insulting.

Maybe the point was that he overestimated the tech tree and maybe he didn't understand the FRENCH requirement at the time.  The fact is that Phaid for example on several occasions points out that Rafale fits French needs first. its logical. Some of us do know that.
 
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.
 
General statement.

Ok, but Rafale isn't the only one to have lost to F-15 in Korea and Singapore. Ok ?

Typhoon lost because it wasn't a good fit for Singapore at the time. its oriented to air superiority more than the Rafale. The Rafale failed because it couldn't carry the Heinenmann family of interfaced weapons and the radar and promary missile offered  with Rafale was a piece of junk. Sorry but when the choice is AMRAAM versu Mica and the choice is PAVEWAY versus NOTHING Rafale was going to lose. The BEAGLE, Singapore version, is just too good at the price.


The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading.

Not very accurate, though the conclusion is ok. They lacked the MONEY.
 
To be blunt: Dassault LIED. They promised the moon, and the French government asked how much and how soon?  The thieves said ten years and saomething like 5 billion Euros. Well thrice the time and almost twice the money later, the PESA radar doesn't work, the MICA doesn't work and just now are the family of standoff A2G minitions that Rafale needs as well as the targeting systems just coming out of develipment into sewrvice. There won't be many standoff weapons and there won't be many bomb trucks. That is MISMANAGEMENT and that is all Dassault and THALES. I don't bl;ame the French people or the French government for this. They gave everything Dassauklt and THALES asked.        

Did you ever read about Rafale D ? History would tell you that the France asked Dassault to propose several level of stealth on Rafale, after the Rafale A.
 
You can't rework  tjhe airframe. All you can do is tweak a little, and based on the poor Rafale product seen, I wouldn't trust Dassault to rework a paving contract.

Upgrade path is just not there. See the Boeing RCS reduction effort on the Eagle as a US farce along this line.
 
The Rafale C01 was not the stealthier : it was a sufficient compromise (stealth/cost) regarding the requirements.

Signature management was not well done on that bird. Still there are things you CAN DO.. The M-88 meeds its combustion pot fixed. That will help. Better panel fits will help, a better radar that won't leak sodelobe noise wi
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/15/2009 7:06:41 PM
Herald , less than 10% of your long post is correct . I am amazed at the amount of BS you can vomit , incredible .
First , you should stop presenting your opinions as facts , they are not . 90% of your "opinions" and "ideas" are ill founded . Any poster with a reasonable knowledge of Rafale will have spotted the numerous mistakes and lies to try to spread around .
 
It might work with some foreigners rookies but it doesn 't with us French Posters .
I will not loose my time in correcting  your entire BS post . The fact is that you let your hate to take over and you loose all sense of intelligence and impartiality , you just cannot debate and certainly not with the arguments you put forward .
You act like if you were a PRC Bandit as you like to call them , all you do is trying to spread intox and lies with a patronizing tone , which is really pathetic .
 
Your technical knowledge on Rafale' s basics is surprisingly good  (I said basics) so it is obvious that you 're biaised or you wouln 't say so many stupid things . As an exemple , how can you say such rubbish ?
I quote :
""Surper Hornet is a fair comparison. Super Hornet is overall slower and but more maneuverable, has a better radar a better signature management, better weapons, better built, better avionics across the board (especially that AESA radar, which will still be superior to the RBE2 hashup that THALES trots out in two years)  is stronger built for naval use, shorter ranged and is not quite as good a bomb truck.""
 
This is entirely rubbish ! Almost nothing is correct !! This is why I know that you only post in anger and to bash . It is sooo easy to prove you wrong that I can 't resist ;-)
 
- The SH is far less maneuverable than the Rafale at any speed or altitude . The SH sustained turn rate is lower than Rafale , its instantaneous turn rate is lower than Rafale , its acceleration is lower than Rafale , its AoA is the same than Rafale (unlimited) , its FBW is not as good as Rafale and to be perfectly honest every FBW is not as good as Rafale 's FBL : fly by light . Rafale is not using "wires" and "electric cables" but optical fiber for its FBL because Dassault wanted the system to be EMP proof (EMP blast) .
 
- The SH radar sig management is not as good as the Rafale 's because :
a) SH air intakes are less efficient in term of RCS (look at space and the angle in between them and the wing/fuselage , it is an EM trap if there is one) , then the double "S" shape to make sure that no EM radio-wave is escaping is missing . A simple curved shape placed in the bottom of the intake doesn 't make up for it .
b) SH airframe in critical areas is not radar transparent composite but metal and/or allow . (ie : one composite fin on Rafale , 2 metal fins on SH) . 70% of the Rafale external airframe is made of composite which is not the case on the SH .
Picture :
h*tp://www.avions-militaires.net/images/rafale/materiau.jpg
c) Tooth edges and RAM are better fitted on the Rafale than on the SH
d) The SH doesn 't have a EM proof coated canopy a la F-22 , Rafale does .
 
Now , onto the "better weapons" BS :
- Mica is equal or better than AIM-9X and better than AMRAAM
- French LGBs are US LGBs , so parity
- Exocet AM-39 is similar to latest Harpoon
- AASM can be used as AGM-154 JSOW or as a SLAM-ER or even as a Maverick (why not lol) and is superior to JDAM
- Mk 80 serie , again parity
- the Rafale 30mm Giat 30 M791 B cannon is superior to the SH 20mm gatling style M61A2 Vulcan (better instantaneous fring rate (no need to spin) , better accuracy (by a mile) , bigger ammo , same muzzle velocity (1050m/s)

Where is the SH better ???
I continue .
 
- Better built . Well , to be honest I do not know but I don 't think so . The Rafale M is build like a tank and the Dassault fighters are known to be extremely strongly built . as Pierre explained it to you the structurals are of the highest quality . One just have to look at the Bugatti landing gears (yes , Bugatti)
Picture :
h*tp://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3324/96395162.jpg
 
This system is a world first :
""The train Messier-Bugatti is desi
 
Quote    Reply

earlm    MICA vs AMRAAM   5/15/2009 9:18:57 PM
BW, you are full of it as always.  You cant argue about MICA vs the 'winder but AMRAAM is hands down superior to MICA.  There is no need to look at classified data to prove this.  AMRAAM has a 40 kg advantage in mass that provides it with a different level of capability.  There's no getting around it.  The warheads and electronics are similar as are the structures.  That leaves the mass for what?  What do you think the 40 kg goes for?  This is in addition to no TV for AMRAAM which is a waste on a BVR missile anyway.
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/15/2009 9:22:15 PM
I am asking to the posters how can we trust a liar like Herald ?
I mean , for God sake, how can you write such lie and non-sense :
(I quote)
""the PESA radar doesn't work, the MICA doesn't work""
 
??? The PESA RBE2 can lock and track 40 targets at 150km and ... wait a minute Herald !
I don 't have to repeat that stuff , I only have to say that since day one to the latest RedFlag (including more than 6 years of operations and 3 during war time) the only radar the Rafale has been using IS the PESA RBE2 ! And you dare to say that it doesn 't work ???  Just ask the 100+ operational Rafale Drivers who have been using it , they know far more than you do ! 
You are pathetic to say the least Herald :-( 
 
Mica at its first "sortie" with M2000-5F made a virtual 40-0 kill ratio against NATO aircrafts , Mica never missed a target in testing , Mica is the finest air to air missile France ever had . When you think about the capabilities of systems like Magic-2 and Super 530 , they were already better than the American missiles .

Herald , I don 't think it is insulting you to call you a clown

Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

earlm    US poster remember their Sesame Street   5/15/2009 9:34:57 PM
R-77:  175kg
AMRAAM:   152kg
PL-12:  199kg
Sky Sword 2:  190kg
Astra:  154 kg
MICA:  112 kg
 
One of these things isn't the same.
One of these things doesn't belong.
Can you guess which one is doin' it's own thing?
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/15/2009 9:57:49 PM
earlm :
""AMRAAM is hands down superior to MICA.  There is no need to look at classified data to prove this.""
 
I disagree . 
While the max range of both missiles can be discussed to no end , the NOZ is well in favor of Mica .
Why that you may ask , well the answer is simple and straight : Mica will reach the end of the NOZ way before AMRAAM because it is a faster missile and this alone brings new factors into the equation , like :
- response time shortened for the adversary (with all the minuses involved)
- if you did not fire first , you will get hit first
- if you did fire first , you still can die first
- you have less time to turn back and escape
 
I can add something else to make you think twice : up to 40km , Mica is the fastest air to air missile Worldwide as well as the more maneuverable .
 
Then , the end game is waaay in favor of Mica with its long chord wings and tail control surfaces .
There is also the ECCM capabilities and I believe Mica to be more advanced than AMRAAM , I already said why not long ago .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

earlm    BW   5/15/2009 10:13:13 PM
Please cite figures.  If you have to estimate cd for both and the mass of propellant.  I give MICA an aerodynamic edge based on what I can see with the planform but I don't see it overcoming the mass difference.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Wonder why I have to take the crap.   5/15/2009 11:13:13 PM

I am asking to the posters how can we trust a liar like Herald ?

I mean , for God sake, how can you write such lie and non-sense :


(I quote)


""the PESA radar doesn't work, the MICA doesn't work""

 


??? The PESA RBE2 can lock and track 40 targets at 150km and ... wait a minute Herald !

I don 't have to repeat that stuff , I only have to say that since day one to the latest RedFlag (including more than 6 years of operations and 3 during war time) the only radar the Rafale has been using IS the PESA RBE2 ! And you dare to say that it doesn 't work ???  Just ask the 100+ operational Rafale Drivers who have been using it , they know far more than you do ! 

You are pathetic to say the least Herald :-( 

 

Mica at its first "sortie" with M2000-5F made a virtual 40-0 kill ratio against NATO aircrafts , Mica never missed a target in testing , Mica is the finest air to air missile France ever had . When you think about the capabilities of systems like Magic-2 and Super 530 , they were already better than the American missiles .




Herald , I don 't think it is insulting you to call you a clown




Cheers .

 
Who is the person who doesn't know how rockets tanks or even the truck he drives works?
 
The poister calls me a liar and yet in the year or so I've read his chain of falsehoods errors and personal attacks on everyone who exposes him as a fraud, I've never seen him learn. Its highly characteristic odf the small man of no intellectual hoinesty that when confrointed with the truth he never changes and grows.
 
Such little men lash out at their superiors with unjustified venom.
 
At least when I tell you a man's opinion is of no merit or worth I lay out evidence thatg shows the case, as ijn the case of this cited poster.  
 
I don't have much use for them (him), I count their words and insults as I count their opinions as worth nothing.
 
The word that defines them is forbidden by the rules FOR ME.
 
But they can spread their meritless hate falsehoods and their technical nonsense all over with impunity.
 
Herald
 
 
.
   
 
 
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy