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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:02:25 PM
The idea that the Anglo-American is actively working against the Rafale is not insane, it is just unlikely.
I'm sure you're in denial about this too BW, but FRANCE is the NATO nation with a history of espionage and even outright sabotage.
 
Tank Range Incident for one famous example (Challenger, Leapord and LeClerc)
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:03:17 PM
With a SIGNIFICANT history that is, among the major nations. Certainly others have as well, but I've heard more about France.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:06:31 PM

Herald :

""(me) The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .
 You're right, not sluts and thieves -- just incompetent at business.""

 

Thank you , I take it as a compliment . The rest of your post clearly shows that you do not want to talk about the USA deal to Marocco ...


 

Cheers .





And now I looked more closely at his post, HE DID answer it, just not directly.
... Think for a while after reading someone's post... it'll help. Sometimes people need more time to take it in, some more than others.
 
Think for one thing about all the help France gets from the USA. France has seen much more success in the past. Why would a helpful US want to grind France's nose into the dust? The US and France have been much worse off than in recent years. Like when France left NATO and made nukes.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:13:24 PM

As it is now , the Rafale is perfectly fitting the FAF and the MN and could also fit any other airforce with a territory much bigger than France , it has the legs .





It is now in its F3 version and in 3 years time , the Rafale program will be completed . Typhoon and Gripen are slowly getting multi-role and are flying real A2A CAPs . F-35 is still a prototype with some problems .


 

Rafale has been operational for over 6 years , the jet has participated at real war operations for over 3 years , it has successfully demonstrated its ability to fight in various missions and meetings and more importantly , the French Rafale Drivers are at least 5 to 8 years ahead of any Typhoon , Gripen , F-35 driver in operational terms , to say the least . Think about it Gentlemen and appreciate the difference ...


 

Cheers .


 


 
 
... mmmm.... what a meaninful pause. Are we supposed to reflect and overcome our prejudices so that in three years we can join you in blaming other countries and the economy (politicians) and the occasional beurocratic stinge for the AWESOME success that will FAIL to materialize when your program is completed?
 
Any third rate country can build a plane and send it to a war and bomb something for NATO, Albania will soon.  Pay attention to the fact that your Rafales often need support on their missions, missions which are none too complicated.

 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:18:41 PM


I appreciate the fact that the Rafale needed a 30 year old Super Etendard to lase its targets for it.



I also appreciate the fact that the Typhoon, the Gripen, and the F-35 have a hell of a lot more export sales than the Rafale does.




Which sales?

For Gripen,  Sweden leases 28 of the aircraft, including four two-seaters, to the Czech and Hungarian Air Forces.

Not a sale but a lease of Swedish aircraft.

Gripen has won only in South Africa (against M2000-5) and Thailand (no french aircraft proposal)

Less than 40 aircafts sold.

We have sold more than 150 aircraft of its closer competitor (M2000-5/9)

 

Typhoon

Austrian sales were those of Luftwaffe which is the mother air force of Austrian air force (we could wonder if Austrian army see it self as something else than an extention of german armed forces).No french aircraft were even proposed  (and some Austrian officer regretted we did not propose M2000-5).

Sales to saudia arabia are purely political.Saudis give its air force budget only to USA or Britain since half a century to reward them (and give its navy budget to France).Saudi air force is a joke and only a symbolic force.Real defense is done by USA, UK mainly and France (so it is why we were in the Gulf war).

 

To summarize, Gripen and Eurofighter sales are marginal.

 

 

 







 


This makes sense.
I don't agree with it, at least about the Eurofighter, but it makes sense.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:26:25 PM




There are a lot of things here that looks wrong to me.



 



StrategyPage is full of people who seems to draw wrong conclusions from prediction-less Rafale's current situation on the export market.

Herald


That's just mean :P, ya gotta be able to play around (eh, mebbe u didn't mean me and some others).
 
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Herald12345    ??????????????????????????????   5/17/2009 7:47:16 PM









There are a lot of things here that looks wrong to me.







 







StrategyPage is full of people who seems to draw wrong conclusions from prediction-less Rafale's current situation on the export market.





Herald





That's just mean :P, ya gotta be able to play around (eh, mebbe u didn't mean me and some others).

What are you talking about?
 
Herald
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:55:06 PM

BW, you are full of it as always.  You cant argue about MICA vs the 'winder but AMRAAM is hands down superior to MICA.  There is no need to look at classified data to prove this.  AMRAAM has a 40 kg advantage in mass that provides it with a different level of capability.  There's no getting around it.  The warheads and electronics are similar as are the structures.  That leaves the mass for what?  What do you think the 40 kg goes for?  This is in addition to no TV for AMRAAM which is a waste on a BVR missile anyway.


Protocols of the elders of Washington, detailing every French mistake ever made since Lafayette helped the revolution succeed.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 7:58:44 PM




I am asking to the posters how can we trust a liar like Herald ?



I mean , for God sake, how can you write such lie and non-sense :






(I quote)






""the PESA radar doesn't work, the MICA doesn't work""



 






??? The PESA RBE2 can lock and track 40 targets at 150km and ... wait a minute Herald !



I don 't have to repeat that stuff , I only have to say that since day one to the latest RedFlag (including more than 6 years of operations and 3 during war time) the only radar the Rafale has been using IS the PESA RBE2 ! And you dare to say that it doesn 't work ???  Just ask the 100+ operational Rafale Drivers who have been using it , they know far more than you do ! 



You are pathetic to say the least Herald :-( 



 



Mica at its first "sortie" with M2000-5F made a virtual 40-0 kill ratio against NATO aircrafts , Mica never missed a target in testing , Mica is the finest air to air missile France ever had . When you think about the capabilities of systems like Magic-2 and Super 530 , they were already better than the American missiles .










Herald , I don 't think it is insulting you to call you a clown










Cheers .





 

Who is the person who doesn't know how rockets tanks or even the truck he drives works?


 

The poister calls me a liar and yet in the year or so I've read his chain of falsehoods errors and personal attacks on everyone who exposes him as a fraud, I've never seen him learn. Its highly characteristic odf the small man of no intellectual hoinesty that when confrointed with the truth he never changes and grows.

 

Such little men lash out at their superiors with unjustified venom.

 

At least when I tell you a man's opinion is of no merit or worth I lay out evidence thatg shows the case, as ijn the case of this cited poster.  


 

I don't have much use for them (him), I count their words and insults as I count their opinions as worth nothing.


 

The word that defines them is forbidden by the rules FOR ME.

 

But they can spread their meritless hate falsehoods and their technical nonsense all over with impunity.

 

Herald


 

 

.


   


 

 

You are strong and right indeed, perhaps even just. (though none of us are good) Your posts are even more detailed and correct than Rufus though I understand much less than the gist I got from him (well ok it was more than a gist, I was just being humble there but with the stuff you mention I really actually don't get some of it at all... it's like, wow. tech lingo).
Ride on! :)
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:01:16 PM



















There are a lot of things here that looks wrong to me.















 















StrategyPage is full of people who seems to draw wrong conclusions from prediction-less Rafale's current situation on the export market.













Herald











That's just mean :P, ya gotta be able to play around (eh, mebbe u didn't mean me and some others).





What are you talking about?

 

Herald



Oh, you were just slagging our useless posts ^^.
Doan' mind doan' mind :), sorry to take up that space there.
 
Nah, you're right, you do answer posts accordingly to their merit... I was just rueing the fact that me and some others don't really know jack.
 
Too bad Strategypage doesn't deal with Pakistan and Iraq more, I really know about those matters.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:02:59 PM
Oh and by useless I mean '95% speculation', not the actually useless posts. I classify the earlier as playing around. Part of the post got cut off. ;P But it wasn't like a serious challenge at all... it was just butthurt pride ;P
 
I am thinking of posting less around here, I should find some warhawk board on the long wars, I can actually significantly contribute at that.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:04:54 PM
So I was just being pedantic splitting hairs to make those of us who just mess around feel better. ;P
 
It wasn't meant as anything serious, sorry to bring it up, I know yer extra careful after that stinge (probably wasn't fair either) recently.
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:08:34 PM

Herald :

 

With all due respect, there is really a lot of things you don't know about Rafale.

 

I have at leat 15 years of books and papers about it.


 

 

You said "Super hornet is decoupled. Rafale is NOT". This is a wrong statement.

 

You want F414 in a Rafale for the UAE, but did you ever notice that F414 is BIGGER than M88 ?

 

You have many comments on the RBE-2 sidelobes, but what do you REALLY know about it ?


 

You think SH is more maneuverable than Rafale, but simply dismisses articles about Rafale F2 vs SH.





 HLD isn't an HMS at all, it's nothing comparable.


 

 Rafale sensor fusion doesn't only produce a picture on a screen, it's about merging/sorting any track from any sensor (radar, spectra, OSF, Mica IR, Link 16 and other datalinks, Damocles...).


 You are just underestimating.


 

 Both USA and Russian are now going for AESA. MSA/PESA are dead ends.


 

 What do you know about kilowatts on Rafale for the radar ? 10kW for the AESA (not peak).


 

Go read Thales brochures for AESA is Spectra. Then, send them e-mails, tell them they are liars because you know more than them.


 

ETC. These above are just examples. You simply (as Rufus) don't know what you're talking about. In addition, you exagerate a lot about Rafale, and French, Dassault, etc. I know a lot of boards on which you would be called a "troll".


 

 At last, you're attitude is just all natural. This is called Dunning-Kruger effect.


 

I've nothing to add, since i receive no support on this forum. I do not enjoy trying to discusse here. There's no point in.


 

Best regards



 
I'm not sure whether you're implying he's trolling you, but he was being scientific to what he knew. If his beliefs are then against what you think that doesn't make him a troll even if he believes the Rafale is rubbish, just like BW in one way isn't a troll if he believes in what he says.
And while there's great respect in your research it all seems to come out of France, Dassault and Thales in particular.
 
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Herald12345    I'm not slagging useless posts.   5/17/2009 8:09:13 PM







































There are a lot of things here that looks wrong to me.































 































StrategyPage is full of people who seems to draw wrong conclusions from prediction-less Rafale's current situation on the export market.





























Herald























That's just mean :P, ya gotta be able to play around (eh, mebbe u didn't mean me and some others).












What are you talking about?



 



Herald









Oh, you were just slagging our useless posts ^^.

Doan' mind doan' mind :), sorry to take up that space there.

 

Nah, you're right, you do answer posts accordingly to their merit... I was just rueing the fact that me and some others don't really know jack.

 

Too bad Strategypage doesn't deal with Pakistan and Iraq more, I really know about those matters.

Here I was trying to find out what you meant. And in what way am I unclear?
 
Also interested about Pakistan in a different context. (post on subject and I will follow.) On that topic, I am a pupil. I've read so much crap and falsehood about that failed state, that anyone with firsthand credible data and viewpoint would be a hole filler in my education.  
 
Herald
 

 
 
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cwDeici       5/17/2009 8:10:09 PM
Hmmm, I guess I've been semi-trolling lately as well, trying to pound through his armour or use psychological pressure to dislodge him from here.
Oh well, it's for a good cause. If I've crossed the line of trolling and get suspended or banned I'll save a few hours a week.
 
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