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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 7:38:51 AM
So to start off with in 'denial' you need to study for a few hundred hours about basic aviation topics. Then you'll find the errors you've made regarding basic assumptions. After that you can go on to argument and conclusion... but that's a long way off.
 
 
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 7:42:22 AM
link

Confirmation bias is a cognitive bias whereby one tends to notice and look for information that confirms one's existing beliefs, whilst ignoring anything that contradicts those beliefs. It is a type of selective thinking.

"Confirmation bias is the technical name for people's desire to find information that agrees with their existing view."
Montier (2002)
 
 
It lacks basic capabilities, like radar and stealth. These are facts... to go looking for positive arguments on the Rafale's tacked on minimal stealth capability and trying to argue why its radar which has been proven to have a LOWER performance than the top radards is a perfect example of confirmation bias.
Well, I just wanted to add something about the Rafale there at the end since the disconnection cut out the links I pasted.
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 7:44:56 AM
Basically there are some tangents on the internet argueing that it's a good aircraft, based on the fact that it's a late 4'th generation model which gives it good performance in some limited areas. But for every such good argument and performance there are several damning flaws.
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 8:14:16 AM
link
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 8:22:53 AM
link
 
Congratulations, looks like you might have managed to sell 14.
 
And Benillim, about your first post. I disagree, if its biggest disadvantage was price and it was nearly equal to the 35 like BW says then it would sell reasonably to nations who can't get 35s.
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 10:34:35 AM
cwDeici thank you , have you finished ?
 
I am sorry that you take my posts the way you do , but I back up 70% of what I say with decent links , 15% is already known and I learn the remaining 15% . You can dislike me as much as you want , it doesn 't change the fact that I my posts are funded for the most .
When I bash the F-35 , I have decent reasons to do so but I don 't attack anymore the poster personaly like I used to do in the past . I try to present my arguments ~as harsh as they can be~ in a civil manner .
 
Now , I 'm glad that you searched a bit around stuff about the Rafale , I 'm sure you learned stuff . I did too , this bit was unknown to me :
""When evaluating the rafale by the Swiss Air Force, the French have been very surprised by the demands of the military who asked the French to use the equipements of the combat aircraft outside their area of use: OSF in air to ground modes and Damocles laser designation in to air-air modes. Tests which showed more than conclusive, to the great satisfaction of French. Which have also produced a brilliant demonstration of the new radar antenna active RBE2, whose serial production has been decided.""
 
Bloody Swiss , lol !
 
cwDeici , even with so many posts you did not provide much . If you dislike the Rafale , me , or the French (?) , just stay away from the topic and you 'll feel better , I assure you .
 
Cheers .
 

 
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Herald12345    Why am I supposed to take you seriously?   5/14/2009 1:17:51 PM







































Who is this ignorant fanboy, who calls himself PLG?































I'm having a hard time not guffawing at some of the nonsense he posts, so I'm curious.















 















Herald 





























































Check out World's Armed Forces Forum (WAFF) and look for posts by Sampaix.  That is him.















 















I have "met" him before on French message boards, but he's banned from the ones I frequent so I hadn't encountered his posts in a long time.













































Really?







 







Trying familiarities now?







 







So what's wrong with this perticular guy?







 







Did you get a bloody nose in this forum?







 







When people get to this point it is generaly an admition of failure...







 







Regards, PlG














To quote that character, Londo Mollari, from Babylon 5 talking to a character similar in traits to this  example from the  class set..



 



Londo Mollari: Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you. 






 



 Herald


Better than BOTH and ignorance of top.


At least i dont need to get personal i can handle my subjects and bring as much evidences as needed, you can't.



Phaid +1

 

If you can do better, get in touch please...

 

Regards, PIG

When you don't even know how planes fly, acceleration loads on the Human being and affects him, how materials and structures failure is measured, how rockets actually work, or even have a clue as to how ignorant IN BASIC SCIENCE  you actually read to me? 

It always amazes me that someone will come in here and post CRAP, that a little physics or high school chemistry could disabuse him of if he would just use that.
 
Anyway, whatever your name is, your actual ignorance is on display. I don't have to do anything from this point on but note the falsehoods and errors as they pile up. Phaid seems to have had youj pegged before I realized exactly what you are.
 
Shrug. 
 
You have no technical merit of argument. You even got my MICA description backwards, defended that missile  on the wrong saluent points, then presented falsehoods, and that sort of prove conclusively that you totally misunderstood why I said it was a piece of junk. 
 
How can you negate what you don't even understand?
 
Herald
 
 
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Herald12345       5/14/2009 1:20:58 PM
There has been no major follow up announcement. Need to wait and see. . 
link target="_blank">link
 

Congratulations, looks like you might have managed to sell 14.

 

And Benillim, about your first post. I disagree, if its biggest disadvantage was price and it was nearly equal to the 35 like BW says then it would sell reasonably to nations who can't get 35s.



 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 1:56:09 PM
I feel oblige to respond and let every poster here know what the general feeling is in France regarding "why the Rafale is not selling" .
It is rather simple in fact . Dassault and MBDA quickly found out that the USA did not want them to sale any aircraft at all , to this purpose the USA were ready to sell fighters without making a Cent out of it , or even loosing some money on the Custom Support part of the contract (Marocco) . The USA also used political pressure (especially on South-Korea) to make the SK Gov accept and bend for the F-15K , or not .... (fill the blanks) . Same with the Singapore deal when Rafale (like in Korea) came first at the technical evaluation .
Then , there is the UK bribe (covered and backed by the UK Parliament !) to the Saudis for the Typhoon .
A perfectly natural question is coming to mind (at least to a French man/woman) : "Why the French Gov is not doing the same ?
 
Because we are one some kind of sluts .
We often read on the Net how French are arrogant , greedy , conservative , sneeky , etc ... Well , it seems that we 've been beaten .
 
 
It is the reason why French posters don 't like when you use the "Rafale is not selling" argument as a winning point , because it doesn 't reflect the true capabilities of the aircraft .
I stick to what I said and sign my deposition . 
BW .
 
Cheers .
 
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VelocityVector    BW   5/14/2009 2:08:31 PM

What, the US bribed or intimidated France too?  Your economy is weathering the current economic situation fairly well, yet France itself has curtailed the rate at which will acquire Rafale.  Le clue.  Le enormous clue given all the years Rafale has been in the works.

v^2

 
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warpig       5/14/2009 4:24:53 PM

What, the US bribed or intimidated France too?  Your economy is weathering the current economic situation fairly well, yet France itself has curtailed the rate at which will acquire Rafale.  Le clue.  Le enormous clue given all the years Rafale has been in the works.


v^2




LOL!!!
 
V^2, I believe in French that's spelled "ClueLeGrand."
 
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 6:22:15 PM
You know , buying an aircraft is not the same than buying a car .
When you go to Chrysler , Toyota , Nissan , Chevrolet , Renault , Saab , Ford , etc , the only pressure you have is your wallet ~your banker~ (and your wife) .
Basically , you can choose the car you like because it is the thing you want and it does look great on the leaflet and the ride you had was impressive , so you go for it . Bravo , you probably chosen the best car for you !
But you can 't buy an aircraft the same way if your are DoD because the aircraft you like is not the one chosen by the money holders . You are the DoD (the customer) , but nobody cares . Politicals decided for you ...
I know , we had the same people here in France a short while ago .
 
All of this to say that as a customer , the best car you could get (sorry , aircraft) was the Rafale . As a customer , I see :
-1) this is the best on paper and during evaluation at the time being and for the foreseeable futur .
-2) The French themselves are buying the F3 version so I can count on a good customer support
-3) their technology transfert is interesting and fair
-4) the price is higher than planned but not by much
-5) I like the French accent and my wife too :-)
 
In all fairness , 300 Rafales or so should have been sold by now on quality alone . Now , you dare asking why the USA wanted to stop Dassault ??? Are you blind or what ?! Think about the money involved .............
You can post as much as you want to defend the F-teens , your enginereers and your political themselves know that the Rafale is the better aircraft and it is why they conducted such an agressive war on Rafale . They did well .
The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .
 
Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    Why didn't the UAE or Qatar buy any?   5/14/2009 6:51:37 PM
Herald
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 7:23:26 PM
Worth reading :
 
""Thales expects to receive a series production order for its RBE2 active electronically scanned array radar from the French defence ministry before year-end, having recently completed flight tests using a Dassault Rafale.

The AESA system, which will equip the next batch of about 60 Rafales to be built for the French air force and French navy, is also now included as a baseline offer to potential export customers for the multirole fighter, including Brazil, India and Switzerland.
Benefits of the AESA system include an increase of more than 50% in detection range and reduced life-cycle costs, says Thales, while Goujon notes the design is also free of US International Traffic in Arms Regulations.

"We are clearly ahead of the other radar manufacturers in Europe," he adds, referring to AESA developments being pursued by EADS and Selex Galileo for the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG, respectively.

France has so far ordered 128 Rafales in three batches, and plans to modify its eventual 59 F3-standard aircraft with the AESA array, says Goujon.

Dassault, Snecma and Thales will submit a best and final offer for Brazil's initially 36-aircraft FX-2 requirement on 8 June, facing competition from the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the Gripen NG. "We are the only ones offering [to transfer] all equipment, including source codes," says Jean-Noël Stock, Thales's head of the Rafale programme.""
 
Phaid , regarding the UAE and Qatar the problem is completly different . They are both making a mistake (this is my opinion) and the situation might change again . We are many around to see that the Gripen could fit the bill but it is not in their interest to buy it . Rafale and France is a much better bet in all accounts than Sweden and Gripen .
I don 't even understand why they beat around the bush ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Phaid       5/14/2009 7:24:33 PM
The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .
 
You're right, not sluts and thieves -- just incompetent at business.  Take for example the Morocco thing, where the real reason it fell through was that France was trying to get Saudi Arabia to finance the Rafale purchase since Morocco couldn't really afford it.  Or the original Libya deal where the French government and Dassault were quoting two different sets of prices.  Etc.
 
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