Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

benellim4       5/9/2009 2:49:00 PM
The biggest flaw is its price.
 
Quote    Reply

Seagull       5/9/2009 3:48:18 PM
Very good humour.
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/9/2009 5:20:14 PM
I read and re-read 4 times the entire thing and I still cannot find anything true .
Exemplary bashing based entirely on lies , well done :-)
A piece of Art in intox !
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Rufus       5/9/2009 5:20:51 PM
Well, the price wouldn't be such an issue if the design were better from the start.  The problem isn't that it is expensive, it is just extremely expensive for what you get.
 

 
Quote    Reply

Rufus       5/9/2009 5:22:00 PM
That wasn't written for you bluewings, I have read enough of your posts to know what a waste of time it is to try to have a discussion with you.  Carry on with your dreaming though!
 
Facts will remain facts in the morning.
 

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/9/2009 5:29:33 PM
What facts ???
All I can see in this prose is the most beautifull bag of lies I have ever seen !!!
 
Care to back up everthing one by one , just for a laugh :-)
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Rufus       5/9/2009 5:44:55 PM
I have provided more than you deserve frankly.
 
Everything I said at the start of this post is something you would already know if you even went so far as to subscribe to the appropriate trade magazines.  We aren't dealing with complex concepts here. 
 
The Rafale was designed from the start to be an incremental improvement over existing 4th generation designs.  Its designers looked at everything that was then available on state-of-the-art aircraft and tried to build something one notch better.
 
The problem is that the designers working on those other aircraft didn't hold still.  They continued to improve their designs, and added new features the Rafale lacks.  The end result is instead of jumping slightly ahead of the pack, the Rafale landed right amongst the pack.  Not only that, but it did so just in time to see the next generation arrive. 
 
The Rafale is like a sailing ship, built just as steam ships were taking over the seas.
 

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/9/2009 6:31:04 PM
When I saw the thread 15mn ago , my friend sat next to me and I were talking about fusion sensors and cockpit design .
He was saying to me "look at the F-125C AESA , it is still the 2nd main A2A fighter in the US after the Raptor , but look at its pit , it 's like being in a Mig-19 era jet !
h*tp://uscockpits.com/Jet%20Fighters/F-15C%20Eagle.JPG
h*tp://uscockpits.com/Jet%20Fighters/F-15C%20Eagle3.JPG
 
The F-18 SH pit is much better :
h*tp://i44.tinypic.com/2yv5v2g.jpg
h*tp://i43.tinypic.com/j82sqq.jpg

The SH driver is much at ease and get a clearer picture and the sensor fusion seems better .
 
It is even better on the Typhoon :
h*tp://www.air-attack.com/MIL/eurofighter/ef_cockpit2.jpg
h*tp://www.bredow-web.de/Eurofighter_3.JPG

Now the Rafale :
h*tp://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale-cockpit.jpg
h*tp://www.naval-technology.com/projects/rafale/images/rafale_7.jpg
Here , we 're clearly on a different level . The pilot is getting every intels the aircraft is gathering in one display , the sensor fusion and the onboard computer is making sure of it . Just look at the size and quality of the colored map of the Rafale compare to the Typhoon . This is not 2D green and brown but full 3D showing the valleys and the landscape . On the second pic , the left digital panel shows the weapon system (it can also show the mission planning and interleave it on the main display) and as soon as the pilot choose a weapon , air or ground , the computer add the parameters and the weapon "bubble" on the main screen (including SPECTRA findings) to show the pilot the real situation at hand . The right panel is used as a main creen for the OSF and TV as well as providing the "health" state of the aircraft from time to time . The right and left panels also have some other use less critical .
The F-teens are not even competing ...
 
The Gripen is very similar to the Typhoon :
h*tp://www.oliepeil.nl/archief/gripen-cockpit.jpg
 
The F-35 is also very advanced :
h*tp://uscockpits.com/Jet%20Fighters/F-35_AA-1_Cockpit_(black_background).jpg
h*tp://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/jetfly/hirek/kicsi_az_f-35_kabinja_a_holland_pilotaknak/F-35_Cockpit.jpg
h*tp://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/1_F-35_cockpit.gif

The US choosed the "dashboard" design and the result is sound , no doubt .  The eyes only have to move left and right and everything is readable at all time .
 
The F-22 is of a lesser generation mind :
h*tp://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6079/f22ausairforce182kz7.jpg
h*tp://www.producersairforce.com/images/F-22ckp.jpg


A picture is worth ...(etc) . Clearly , the Rafale and the F-35 have the best cocpkits while the Rafale hasn 't got any problem with its ejection seat which is not the case with the prototypes of the F-35 ...

Cheers .
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       5/9/2009 6:44:46 PM
Rufus , your material is made of lies and hot air , mine is made of pictures and pdf.
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Rufus       5/9/2009 7:16:46 PM
You think "sensor fusion" refers to how many screens there are in plane's cockpit? LOLOL
 
You can display whatever the heck you want on a multi-function display, but that doesn't mean that what the aircraft is doing is true sensor fusion.  Do you even understand what the words  you are trying to use mean?  Do you think if France decided to add another display to the Rafale it would suddenly have less "sensor fusion?" LMAO
 

Sensor fusion is about an aircraft's ability to merge all of its available inputs, both onboard and offboard into a single coherent picture of what is going on around it.  The Rafale has a limited ability to do that, as do other late 4th generation aircraft, but the Rafale is certainly nothing special in that regard, if anything it is a rather poor performer.  Jets like the F-35 will keep continuous track files using all available sensors, IR with DAS and its IRST, Radar, passively with its EW system, and when available with offboard sensors like an AWACs or other F-35s. This is a gigantic leap forward in performance over the limited integration seen in the Rafale's various avionics.
 
 
While we are on the subject of the Rafale's interface, it is cumbersom and relatively primative compared to that found in jets like the Super Hornet and is nowhere near the level of the F-22 or F-35. 
 
Why do you think France changed its mind about buying two seater Rafales?  The Rafale was originally intended to be a single seat only aircraft, with the two seat version used only for training, but in testing it became obvious that a single pilot wouldn't be able to effectively handle the high workload imposed by the Rafale's man machine interface.  In a high threat environment the pilot was forced to continually manage the aircraft's various sensors to keep track of what was going on around him to the extent that he could hardly fly the plane.  The cheapest solution was to just build some two-seat Rafales because at least that design already existed and would cost less than trying to redesign the Rafale's cockpit late in the program.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy