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Subject: Dogfight tricks ...
Bluewings12    4/22/2009 6:07:56 PM
A M2000-5 Pilot here in Dijon ~a friend of mine~ told me that He and his aircraft can leave any other following aircraft in the dust with one pass . When I asked "any aircraft ?" , he said yes and he directed me to that video : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3424v_french-air-force-mirage-20005_shortfilms He said to me , check from 1:12 to 1:28 . He explained to me that the Mirage is diving instantly nose first with a negative 4Gs plunge , followed by a 6g plate then followed by an 11g 180deg turn , the end speed is close to 300 knots . He said to me , "imagine where the bugger who is following you ends up ? NOWHERE !" To start with , 99% of the Pilots will not plunge nose first but will make a roll to dive "against the Gs" . There are 3 reasons to do so : #1 to avoid the "red-out" , # the FBW is not at ease , #3 you need a delta wing . When I asked him how he could turn the situation to his advantage , his answer was simple : "keep turning high Gs left or right , depends where he went and you 'll end up behind him , if he goes vertical go vertical too , he will ALSO be in front of you" Please , post some other nice videos of good dogfight tricks :-) Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 6:39:16 PM
gf :
""cut the patronising tone and make the effort to read and absorb what I have said throughout the thread.do not resort to ignorant forum behaviour or I will have no compunction in responding in kind.""
 
Roger that but you looked for it . Stop posting BS like you did in the post I corrected you gf and everything will be fine .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Phaid       4/29/2009 7:07:14 PM
Listen to the other Rafale pilot who does the talking . All the turns during the display are in between 8 and 9gs with 2 sustained 9s turns . Then , the Rafale also goes twice at 10g+ and the pilot is perfectly alright , thank you .
At 5:11 , it is an 11g turn ...
 
The turns are clearly not 11g in the video.  And what 11g turn?  The guy making the commentary doesn't say that.
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 7:55:34 PM
Phaid , you speak a fluent French but don 't BS the others , ok ?
What I said and what the Rafale pilot said stand .
 
-1) why do you type : ""The turns are clearly not 11g in the video.""
I and the pilot said that most turns were in between 8 and 9 gs , as I said in my post .
-2) ""And what 11g turn?  The guy making the commentary doesn't say that.""
And why do you think he says " allez , allez , allez !" just before the turn ?
Check what he says about the conflict in between the Roissy CdG  airport and the end area of the display : the pilot is forced to pull incredible Gs to one keep the display alive and two avoid entering the forbiden area . I said that the Rafale was pulling 11gs because I know that he has to , it might be more than 11gs but this is not the point .
Then , tell the other posters that the Rafale pilot at the mike said twice than the Rafale was pulling 10gs , thank you .
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 8:01:38 PM
Instead to wrongly try to look down on French Fighters during dogfights , why don 't you post some good videos of aircrafts pulling tricks ? I am talking to everybody ...
Do you want me to post some more ?
 
Cheers .
 
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Phaid       4/29/2009 8:12:12 PM
Check what he says about the conflict in between the Roissy CdG  airport and the end area of the display : the pilot is forced to pull incredible Gs to one keep the display alive and two avoid entering the forbiden area . I said that the Rafale was pulling 11gs because I know that he has to , it might be more than 11gs but this is not the point .

In other words, the pilot never said that and you just made it up.  Nothing new here, and nothing to see as usual.  
 
"Stick with what you know, buddy."  Pathetic.
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 8:54:22 PM
Btw Phaid , did you acknowledge the 3 rolls starting at 0:56 in the display ? Get your chronometer out and you 'll see that the Rafale is doing 3 complete rolls in less than 3 seconds . The roll rate is more than 360deg per seconds which is unseen in any other Fighters . I am not inventing it , you can all see it with your own eyes ...
 
At 1:46 , the Rafale is making a 10g turn followed by a double barrel at 8gs , followed by a 10g right "oreille" (inverted turn on the wrong axe) while keeping the airspeed over 280 knots . Here , any Flanker or F-22 will not know how to react and trying to simply follow the Rafale will not be possible . 3 seconds later the Rafale dives to gain speed in another 8g turn to loose the opponent in case it tried to keep up .  I tell you something , here a M2000 is also lost .
From 2:46 , you can see the vertical acceleration of the Rafale and the long following turn is a simple 8g turn to face the crowd and prepare the next move .
Then starting at 3:30 , you get a 9gs evading wide roll followed by another 9gs righ turn . That move is really hard to follow if you 're chasing the Rafale because the aircraft goes vertical before to roll and dive very quickly then turn tightly right while gaining speed , here a M2000 will follow but will not gain speed . Any F-teen should better try a vertical hard left turn to try to come back into the fight before the opponent is in his six .
The "Square Dance" begins at 3:58 (right after the hard move I just talked about) and no aircraft can pull that stuff with such dynamic as the Rafale pilot said in the video . All turns are 45deg 9g turns at over 320 knots at less than 3000ft . That leaves everybody in the dust ...
The vertical climb right after the Square Dance could teach the F-22 how to reach 400 knots in less than 5 seconds followed by a 9g inverted dive also followed by a 360deg 9g turn at 450 knots (from 4:50) .
I already talked about the rest of the video including the high Gs linverted ooping to reach the runway  ...
 
Anything else to say Phaid ?
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Ispose    Re: Bluewings   4/30/2009 1:32:56 AM
Ispose :
""You have to Understand that in France G's are cumulative so if you do a 3 G manuever followed by a 6 G manuever then Dassualt puts out a brochure claiming 9 G manuevers...quite simple actually.
However they don't count negative G manuevers
There are some Rafale's out there now that do 110 G manuevers..LOL""
 
For the sake of the credibility of SP , can SYSOPS erase that non-sense post ? Thank you .
 
Bluewings...if Sysops were to erase all nonsense posts your name would not appear. I was being SARCASTIC...look it up in your English-French dictionary. You have once again made up data within this series of posts and have been called out on it...The Rafale is a decent plane in its own right as far a aircraft performance goes...it just isn't any better than F-16/18/15. Its radar isn't as good and your claims that France can overnight equip the entire Rafale force with world class AESA sets is just wishful thinking. It's a good aircraft and it suits Frances need for a multirole land and naval aircraft...it just isn't  overpoweringly better than the late model teens and nobody wants it since the F-35 is waiting in the wings. Dassualt would be better off trying to get a partnership to build F-35s..not that France's national pride would allow it.
I'm not a rabid F-35 fan....I think the airforce could cut 50% of what they want and build new A-10C's instead. Between the F-22's and F-35's any enemys AirDefense would be wiped out and the A-10's could just shoot up anything that moves. We can retire the 16's and 15's, and 18's once we have enought 35's.
I admire your tenacity in defending the Rafale against all comers but quite honestly I feel that if you were at Agincourt you would have said "We could have won if it wasn't for all those arrows!". Just my 2 cents
 
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gf0012-aust       4/30/2009 2:42:49 AM

gf :


""cut the patronising tone and make the effort to read and absorb what I have said throughout the thread.do not resort to ignorant forum behaviour or I will have no compunction in responding in kind.""

 Roger that but you looked for it . Stop posting BS like you did in the post I corrected you gf and everything will be fine .

Cheers .

/civility off.
quite frankly I know my limits..
you however have reguarly and  publicly been shown to have no idea on what you pretend to wax lyrical on.  (cold thermals and Link16 being the most recent)

stop wasting everyones time and start to develop some common sense. the only one on here who is full of BS is you.

you're worse than those idiotic teenagers on youtube who pretend to be either F-22/SU-30 pilots or pretened to be ex spceforces.

 
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Herald12345    Lie.   4/30/2009 10:16:51 AM

Well you are faulty GF0012

It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it

Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...

Just google 11 g mirage 2000

Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...

 


 
Limit load factor
Technical features
Wingspan 9,13 m 3 view
Length 14,85 m
Height 5,20 m
Wingarea 41 m2
Empty weight 7600 kg
Gross weight 10960 kg
Max speed Mach 2,2
Climb 305 m/s
Ceiling 18000 m
Range 3355 km while convoying
+9/-4,5 g
Turbofan 1 SNECMA M53-P2... of 6565 kg thrust and 9700 kg thrust with afterburning
 
 Herald
 
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Herald12345    Lie.   4/30/2009 10:20:20 AM

Well you are faulty GF0012

It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it

Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...

Just google 11 g mirage 2000

Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...

 


 

Technical features
Wingspan 9,13 m 3 view
Length 14,85 m
Height 5,20 m
Wingarea 41 m2
Empty weight 7600 kg
Gross weight 10960 kg
Max speed Mach 2,2
Climb 305 m/s
Ceiling 18000 m
Range 3355 km while convoying
Limit Load factor  +9/-4,5 g Turbofan 1 SNECMA M53-P2... of 6565 kg thrust and 9700 kg thrust with afterburning  
 
 
 Herald
 
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