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Subject: Dogfight tricks ...
Bluewings12    4/22/2009 6:07:56 PM
A M2000-5 Pilot here in Dijon ~a friend of mine~ told me that He and his aircraft can leave any other following aircraft in the dust with one pass . When I asked "any aircraft ?" , he said yes and he directed me to that video :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3424v_french-air-force-mirage-20005_shortfilms

He said to me , check from 1:12 to 1:28 .
He explained to me that the Mirage is diving instantly nose first with a negative 4Gs plunge , followed by a 6g plate then followed by an 11g 180deg turn , the end speed is close to 300 knots .
He said to me , "imagine where the bugger who is following you ends up ? NOWHERE !"

To start with , 99% of the Pilots will not plunge nose first but will make a roll to dive "against the Gs" . There are 3 reasons to do so :
#1 to avoid the "red-out" , # the FBW is not at ease , #3 you need a delta wing .
When I asked him how he could turn the situation to his advantage , his answer was simple : "keep turning high Gs left or right , depends where he went and you 'll end up behind him , if he goes vertical go vertical too , he will ALSO be in front of you"

Please , post some other nice videos of good dogfight tricks :-)

Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 8:54:22 PM
Btw Phaid , did you acknowledge the 3 rolls starting at 0:56 in the display ? Get your chronometer out and you 'll see that the Rafale is doing 3 complete rolls in less than 3 seconds . The roll rate is more than 360deg per seconds which is unseen in any other Fighters . I am not inventing it , you can all see it with your own eyes ...
 
At 1:46 , the Rafale is making a 10g turn followed by a double barrel at 8gs , followed by a 10g right "oreille" (inverted turn on the wrong axe) while keeping the airspeed over 280 knots . Here , any Flanker or F-22 will not know how to react and trying to simply follow the Rafale will not be possible . 3 seconds later the Rafale dives to gain speed in another 8g turn to loose the opponent in case it tried to keep up .  I tell you something , here a M2000 is also lost .
From 2:46 , you can see the vertical acceleration of the Rafale and the long following turn is a simple 8g turn to face the crowd and prepare the next move .
Then starting at 3:30 , you get a 9gs evading wide roll followed by another 9gs righ turn . That move is really hard to follow if you 're chasing the Rafale because the aircraft goes vertical before to roll and dive very quickly then turn tightly right while gaining speed , here a M2000 will follow but will not gain speed . Any F-teen should better try a vertical hard left turn to try to come back into the fight before the opponent is in his six .
The "Square Dance" begins at 3:58 (right after the hard move I just talked about) and no aircraft can pull that stuff with such dynamic as the Rafale pilot said in the video . All turns are 45deg 9g turns at over 320 knots at less than 3000ft . That leaves everybody in the dust ...
The vertical climb right after the Square Dance could teach the F-22 how to reach 400 knots in less than 5 seconds followed by a 9g inverted dive also followed by a 360deg 9g turn at 450 knots (from 4:50) .
I already talked about the rest of the video including the high Gs linverted ooping to reach the runway  ...
 
Anything else to say Phaid ?
 
Cheers .
 
 
Quote    Reply

Ispose    Re: Bluewings   4/30/2009 1:32:56 AM
Ispose :
""You have to Understand that in France G's are cumulative so if you do a 3 G manuever followed by a 6 G manuever then Dassualt puts out a brochure claiming 9 G manuevers...quite simple actually.
However they don't count negative G manuevers
There are some Rafale's out there now that do 110 G manuevers..LOL""
 
For the sake of the credibility of SP , can SYSOPS erase that non-sense post ? Thank you .
 
Bluewings...if Sysops were to erase all nonsense posts your name would not appear. I was being SARCASTIC...look it up in your English-French dictionary. You have once again made up data within this series of posts and have been called out on it...The Rafale is a decent plane in its own right as far a aircraft performance goes...it just isn't any better than F-16/18/15. Its radar isn't as good and your claims that France can overnight equip the entire Rafale force with world class AESA sets is just wishful thinking. It's a good aircraft and it suits Frances need for a multirole land and naval aircraft...it just isn't  overpoweringly better than the late model teens and nobody wants it since the F-35 is waiting in the wings. Dassualt would be better off trying to get a partnership to build F-35s..not that France's national pride would allow it.
I'm not a rabid F-35 fan....I think the airforce could cut 50% of what they want and build new A-10C's instead. Between the F-22's and F-35's any enemys AirDefense would be wiped out and the A-10's could just shoot up anything that moves. We can retire the 16's and 15's, and 18's once we have enought 35's.
I admire your tenacity in defending the Rafale against all comers but quite honestly I feel that if you were at Agincourt you would have said "We could have won if it wasn't for all those arrows!". Just my 2 cents
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       4/30/2009 2:42:49 AM

gf :


""cut the patronising tone and make the effort to read and absorb what I have said throughout the thread.do not resort to ignorant forum behaviour or I will have no compunction in responding in kind.""

 Roger that but you looked for it . Stop posting BS like you did in the post I corrected you gf and everything will be fine .

Cheers .

/civility off.
quite frankly I know my limits..
you however have reguarly and  publicly been shown to have no idea on what you pretend to wax lyrical on.  (cold thermals and Link16 being the most recent)

stop wasting everyones time and start to develop some common sense. the only one on here who is full of BS is you.

you're worse than those idiotic teenagers on youtube who pretend to be either F-22/SU-30 pilots or pretened to be ex spceforces.

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Lie.   4/30/2009 10:16:51 AM

Well you are faulty GF0012

It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it

Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...

Just google 11 g mirage 2000

Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...

 


 
Limit load factor
Technical features
Wingspan 9,13 m 3 view
Length 14,85 m
Height 5,20 m
Wingarea 41 m2
Empty weight 7600 kg
Gross weight 10960 kg
Max speed Mach 2,2
Climb 305 m/s
Ceiling 18000 m
Range 3355 km while convoying
+9/-4,5 g
Turbofan 1 SNECMA M53-P2 of 6565 kg thrust and 9700 kg thrust with afterburning
 
 Herald
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Lie.   4/30/2009 10:20:20 AM

Well you are faulty GF0012

It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it

Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...

Just google 11 g mirage 2000

Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...

 


 

Technical features
Wingspan 9,13 m 3 view
Length 14,85 m
Height 5,20 m
Wingarea 41 m2
Empty weight 7600 kg
Gross weight 10960 kg
Max speed Mach 2,2
Climb 305 m/s
Ceiling 18000 m
Range 3355 km while convoying
Limit Load factor  +9/-4,5 g Turbofan 1 SNECMA M53-P2 of 6565 kg thrust and 9700 kg thrust with afterburning  
 
 
 Herald
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    Hold it...   4/30/2009 10:30:53 AM
You mean they're NOT ex-Special Warfare Operatives!?!?!  But, but they said they were....why wuld they lie, on the Intarwebz?
 
Quote    Reply

PierreLeGrand       5/11/2009 10:46:54 AM




Well you are faulty GF0012



It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it



Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...



Just google 11 g mirage 2000



Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...



 







 

















































Limit load factor







Technical features
Wingspan 9,13 m 3 view
Length 14,85 m
Height 5,20 m
Wingarea 41 m2
Empty weight 7600 kg
Gross weight 10960 kg
Max speed Mach 2,2
Climb 305 m/s
Ceiling 18000 m
Range 3355 km while convoying
+9/-4,5 g
Turbofan 1 SNECMA M53-P2 of 6565 kg thrust and 9700 kg thrust with afterburning

 


 Herald

 Q: Why dont you get an airfix factsheet while you're at it?
  Apparently you can't comprehend Soft limit (FCS = +9/-4.5 g), hard limits  (FCS = +11/-4.5 g), and structural limits (Industry standard 9g + X 1.6) either.
 
  Dont tell us you know your subject you might be called a liar...
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Soft limits my le3ft foot.   5/11/2009 11:37:17 AM









Well you are faulty GF0012







It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it







Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...







Just google 11 g mirage 2000







Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...







 

















 


















































































































































Limit load factor






















Technical features
Wingspan 9,13 m 3 view
Length 14,85 m
Height 5,20 m
Wingarea 41 m2
Empty weight 7600 kg
Gross weight 10960 kg
Max speed Mach 2,2
Climb 305 m/s
Ceiling 18000 m
Range 3355 km while convoying
+9/-4,5 g
Turbofan 1 SNECMA M53-P2 of 6565 kg thrust and 9700 kg thrust with afterburning



 






 Herald




 Q: Why dont you get an airfix factsheet while you're at it?


  Apparently you can't comprehend Soft limit (FCS = +9/-4.5 g), hard limits  (FCS = +11/-4.5 g), and structural limits (Industry standard 9g + X 1.6) either.

 

  Dont tell us you know your subject you might be called a liar...



There are Human NTEs, and mechanical NTEs. A normal Human can take up tp 15 gees+  for a half minute and not die. He can heal from his injuries bit he shpudn't exceed 9 gees because he will black out from gee lock. A machine-especially a badly made one, made mostly out of aluminum has max loads never to exceed ever. Don't BS.about this. Rafale structures strain to the limit at the joins at 9 gees+/-4.5 gees+. Exceed those ONCE and the aircraft is no longer safe to fly at ANY load. It will fail.  Its also interesting to note, that the more hours you put into such an aircraft airframe the more certain it is to degrade below its book listed limits.
 
Static load tear limit is not the same as continuous dynamic load limit either.  
 
In other words, I know the subject, PLG. 
 
Herald
 
 
Quote    Reply

PierreLeGrand       5/11/2009 12:33:44 PM





There are Human NTEs, and mechanical NTEs. A normal Human can take up tp 15 gees+  for a half minute and not die. He can heal from his injuries bit he shpudn't exceed 9 gees because he will black out from gee lock. A machine-especially a badly made one, made mostly out of aluminum has max loads never to exceed ever. Don't BS.about this. Rafale structures strain to the limit at the joins at 9 gees+/-4.5 gees+. Exceed those ONCE and the aircraft is no longer safe to fly at ANY load. It will fail.  Its also interesting to note, that the more hours you put into such an aircraft airframe the more certain it is to degrade below its book listed limits.

 

Static load tear limit is not the same as continuous dynamic load limit either.  


 

In other words, I know the subject, PLG. 


 

Herald


 

  OH NO YOU DON'T.
  Both Rafale and Mirage 2000 FCS allows for 11 g in case of emergency and for their structural loads they are well over 11 g, in the case of Rafale it's simply WELL above the industry standard which is 1.5.
 
  If aircrafts fails after pulling this sort of g loads it's not manufactured in by Dassault.
 
  Even Typhoon is equiped with such a system anyway the difference is opn the airframe Maximum Load and we understand that in the US it is somewhat way below what we got at home,  sohere are the comment of someone i know WHO KNOWS.
 

I have no intention of commenting on what may have led up to the subject incident, I will give you some facts about Typhoon flight controls and flight characteristics as there has been some speculation and questions raised in these regards.

Typhoon has Carefree Handling (CFH), which means that the pilot need not worry about exceeding any structural or aerodynamic limit no matter what he does with the controls (stick, throttles or rudder), no matter what the prevailing flight conditions are or what fuel state or weapons load the aircraft has. However, it does not mean that the pilot can ignore the basic laws of physics and aerodynamics.

The basic airframe configuration is also aerodynamically unstable in pitch, which helps to explain BOAC?s observation that there was ?not much alpha on the foreplane?. The control surfaces move to artificially stabilize the aircraft. In a stable aircraft the control surfaces deflect to make the aircraft pitch. In an unstable aircraft the control surfaces are ?stopping? the aircraft from pitching. If you look at pictures of the jet in a hard turn, the foreplane is actually leading edge down (ie going against the turn). The flight controls are constantly on the move to keep the apple cart balanced.

The stick does feature an override or detent, but this only produces an effect when the aircraft is in a g-limiting condition (higher speeds) where a percentage of extra g is then allowed. This was the subject of a lot of discussion and heart ache throughout the design life. Some folk insisted on it being there (despite the high fatigue penalty of its inadvertent use) to cater for the high speed dive into the ground (or mid-air collision avoidance) where 9g wasn?t going to hack it, the extra % might just make all the difference. However, this was in the days before GPWS was part of the baseline design. In actual fact the window where 9g would kill you and 9+x%g would save you is very small indeed, but that?s irrelevant to this story because it is highly likely that the aircraft was a speeds where it would be alpha limited not g limited.

The biggest factor that nobody has picked up on is the ability of the aircraft to increase its energy state in a heartbeat. Unload for 3 secs and you add 100kts or so, the faster you are the faster you get faster, with the burners in at low level you can find yourself accelerating despite being at 9g. Not something the current fast jet force are used to!

That should be enough to keep you going and set a few facts straight.

  As for our sources...
 
The ability of carefree handling to control g limits precisely has allowed designers to reduce the ultimate load factor to 1.4, from the normal 1.5, resulting in a lighter aircraft. The airframe is designed for a 6,000h life.
link
 
 Rafale was tested at up to 185% of design limit load before the airframe broke.
 
 That's a Maximum load of 1.9 by design and it is guaranteed for 7000 h and 5.300 landings.
 
link
 
 
In other words, I know the subject, PLG. 
 
 
  You DONT know  about French standards and i have some doubts as to weither you know much about anything non-US...
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    There os no such thing as "French" standards.    5/11/2009 12:44:45 PM
Aluminum tears under load the same in Russia, as it does in FRANCE.
 
There are INTERNATIONAL recognized materials standards.
 
Used for certification by the way. 

SARCASM.
 
Herald
 
 
Quote    Reply

PierreLeGrand       5/11/2009 12:58:11 PM

Aluminum tears under load the same in Russia, as it does in FRANCE.

 

There are INTERNATIONAL recognized materials standards.

 

Used for certification by the way. 






SARCASM.


 

Herald


 

  Boy, you forget to READ what is posted and still FAIL to comprehend the basic notion of Maximum Load Industry Standards.
  1.5 as an industry standard, at Dassault airframes are beefed up to 1.9.
 
  Now do your math and come back when you will have figured than their engineers before allowing for the FCS to pull 11g up to the hard stop, have dimentioned "Aluminium" part accordingly.
 
  Ask the Greek Air Force who recovers theirs from the Agean sea bed after a crash and get them back in front line Squadrons what they think of it.
 
  BTW you had such strong built airframes not so long ago, they werer the A4 Skyhawk and A7 Corsair II, otherwise the US doesn't bother with oversizing their load standards and got airframes failing in flight after 2/3rd of their service life.
 
  I think you might well believe that god is American too...
 
  Next you can inform yourself on how they did it using a software called CATIA.
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    PlG   5/11/2009 1:18:24 PM
I think you might well believe that god is American too...
 
I don't think it, I KNOW it, and he's an Irish Catholic God, to boot!  So all you WASP boyz are in trouble....
 
Quote    Reply

PierreLeGrand       5/11/2009 1:51:52 PM

I think you might well believe that god is American too...

 

I don't think it, I KNOW it, and he's an Irish Catholic God, to boot!  So all you WASP boyz are in trouble....



 At least you have some sense of humor...
 
 Regards, PlG
 
Quote    Reply

FJV    What is exactly discussed?   5/11/2009 3:11:31 PM
Aluminum tears under load the same in Russia, as it does in FRANCE.
 
Having a hard time believing aluminium is used in planes, aluminium alloys like Duralmin, I find easier to believe.
 
And then which Aluminium alloys exactly are we talking about?
What kind of production method for the aluminium alloys are we talking about?
Are we talking about forged, cast, machined, cold rolled, extruded, etc. alloys?
Matters for grain size and shape or inclusions.
 
This is a bit of a weird discussion in my opinion.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

PierreLeGrand    Topic subject   5/11/2009 4:46:50 PM

Aluminum tears under load the same in Russia, as it does in FRANCE.

 

Having a hard time believing aluminium is used in planes, aluminium alloys like Duralmin, I find easier to believe.


 

And then which Aluminium alloys exactly are we talking about?

What kind of production method for the aluminium alloys are we talking about?


Are we talking about forged, cast, machined, cold rolled, extruded, etc. alloys?

Matters for grain size and shape or inclusions.


 

This is a bit of a weird discussion in my opinion.

 

 


  This boy tries to put doubts over the topic recit, claiming a Mirage or a Rafale is not stressed for 11 g he have no idea.
 
  Regards. PlG
 
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