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Subject: Dogfight tricks ...
Bluewings12    4/22/2009 6:07:56 PM
A M2000-5 Pilot here in Dijon ~a friend of mine~ told me that He and his aircraft can leave any other following aircraft in the dust with one pass . When I asked "any aircraft ?" , he said yes and he directed me to that video :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3424v_french-air-force-mirage-20005_shortfilms

He said to me , check from 1:12 to 1:28 .
He explained to me that the Mirage is diving instantly nose first with a negative 4Gs plunge , followed by a 6g plate then followed by an 11g 180deg turn , the end speed is close to 300 knots .
He said to me , "imagine where the bugger who is following you ends up ? NOWHERE !"

To start with , 99% of the Pilots will not plunge nose first but will make a roll to dive "against the Gs" . There are 3 reasons to do so :
#1 to avoid the "red-out" , # the FBW is not at ease , #3 you need a delta wing .
When I asked him how he could turn the situation to his advantage , his answer was simple : "keep turning high Gs left or right , depends where he went and you 'll end up behind him , if he goes vertical go vertical too , he will ALSO be in front of you"

Please , post some other nice videos of good dogfight tricks :-)

Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       4/27/2009 5:30:35 PM
There is one good video about the Rafale carrier operations and during the video , you can see from the HUD view a Rafale trying to chase another Rafale . If you don 't want to watch the whole video (not very long btw) it starts at 1:38 and from there you have a couple of exemples .
h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBWdl_vybqg&hl=fr
 
The Rafale pilot seems to have a hell of time to try to chase the other Rafale , despites his high G turns and fast rolls ...
 
Then another video came out not long ago , this is a French video from the Rafale F2s when they flew against the F-16s at the Luke Airbase before to go to RedFlag 2008 . Some part of the video comes from RedFlag , but the dogfight bits come from Luke :
h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiD6c69uQRQ&feature=related
 
This video is amazing . When the dogfight starts , we can see that the Rafale F2s are flying waay too fast , they can 't turn on the Vipers . The French probably expected the Americans to use to the excellent Viper 's thrust ratio at low Mach but the Vipers wanted to turn the fight into a bloody tight furball ! My guess is that they knew the M2000 so they wanted to try the Rafale ...
Then , at 2:43 the Rafale slows down and the game takes a very different scenario . The Rafale is all over the F-16 and keep scoring (on the HUD , notice the square for the MICA (not allowed in the excercise) as well as the cannon cord showing where the 30mm cannon is firing) .
The followings bits are just lovely . The best is what the US Officer says about the excercise and his words should be kept in mind . I am really glad that we work so good with each other , I mean it and thanks the USAF .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       4/27/2009 7:07:33 PM
Quote :
""The snoof was outstanding !""
 
lol ! Good man :-)
 
Cheers .
 
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sentinel28a       4/28/2009 12:24:01 AM
Because, BW, the idea that aircraft regularly pull more than 9Gs without wrecking the aircraft or hurting the pilot is ludicrous.  I know many fighter pilots, and trust me, if you're having to pull more than 9 in a dogfight, you're up against King Kong or you've done something very stupid.  The F-16 (and I'm sure the Mirage 2000 as well) can hold 9Gs, but the pilot can't.  13Gs would probably kill the pilot and destroy the aircraft, or certainly render it unflyable until major repairs.  I call BS on this. 
 
I know you like to wave the tricolor a lot and that's okay, but I'm sure the French version of Bitchin' Betty the onboard computer will tell the pilot to go to hell if he tries ordering up a 13G turn.
 
(Side note: is it true Dassault got a porn actress to do the voice of the computer on the Rafale? Because that's just genius.  Fighter pilots will definitely listen to porn stars.)
 
 
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Bluewings12       4/28/2009 5:36:02 PM
Sentinel , I 'm not here to spread lies and I can back up what I say . To start with , I am in total disagreement with you when you say :
""Because, BW, the idea that aircraft regularly pull more than 9Gs without wrecking the aircraft or hurting the pilot is ludicrous.""
I do not know for sure what the foreign Airforces are asking to the aircrafts and the pilots but here in France , pulling 9s with a M2000 or a Rafale is something perfectly normal . Pulling more than that is up to the pilot as the FBW is perfectly able to respond , thank you . The pilot is the limit , not the aircraft . I said that the Mirage had a +13.5g ultimate and -4g , well I was half right as it ultimate negative Gs are -9 (!) Link :
h*tp://www.techno-science.net/?onglet=glossaire&definition=7910

In fact I understood that I was talking about FBW restrictions (for the sake of the pilot) and not structural limits . The pilot will die before the aircraft brakes , as usual . Now , an aircraft is not supposed to pull 9 to 11 gs at every sortie , I agree .
Doing so will stretch the structure and the lifetime will be shortened . Nevertheless , it is not a good reason not to train the pilots to use their aircraft to their max (the pilots) . In case push comes to shove , saving your life and your aircraft by knowing how to pull 11gs to loose your opponent and get the upper hand is countless , you winn on all points .
Now , I also understand that some people can be surprised to see a Delta wing fighter able to pull some extremely high Gs . Well , theose people should re-check why a Delta wing always has the edge in turning dogfight as long as the thrust to weight ratio is more or less equal .
Read : the total wing surface for the F-16 is 27.27m square , the M2000 toatl wing surface is 41m square (46.45m square for the F-18 SH) . 
The M2000 has the edge in dogfight against both aircrafts , one with less surface and one with more surface but none of the two are Delta winged fighters . If you check the TW ratio , the Mirage is not in a good position but it still has the edge in dogfights .
Why that ?
The delta wing knowledge from Dassault .
The Rafale is no sloutch either , it can kicks the M2000 s' a** in dogfights which is telling much ...
Since I 've seen the latest Rafale high speed display , I keep searching the Net for a better display and I can 't find any so far ...
 
Cheers .


 
 
 
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warpig       4/28/2009 11:12:25 PM

Gee, looks like Dassault forgot to brief the Taiwanese about the +13.5/-0 G-limits to their super-duper-special superior delta wing technology.  No wonder those hapless Taiwanese have essentially retired their M2000-5s and reply on their inferior American jets, they think the M2000-5 is limtied to a pedestrian +9/-3 Gs.  How droll!

link

 

I guess the guys over at the well-regarded Scramble website haven't gotten the word, either, as they mistakenly think the limits are +9/-3.4 Gs.

link

 

My point with that is that you can pretty much find something somewhere on the Internet to support any particular position you want to support.  Oh, but wait, look at what else I found....

 

Here's an interesting comment someone shared on a blog.  Considering that the F-16 and F-15 are 9G jets (i.e., their limit loads are +9Gs), then this should mean they are rated for 13.5Gs ultimate load, too.  It's probably due to General Dynamics and McDonnell Douglas' non-delta wing knowledge, don't you think?

 

FAR part 23 states "... limit loads are the maximum loads to be expected in service [i.e. the highest load expected in normal operations] and ultimate loads are limit loads multiplied by a safety factor [of 1.5]. The structure must be able to support limit loads without detrimental, permanent deformation. At any load up to limit loads, the deformation may not interfere with safe operation. The structure must be able to support ultimate loads without failure for at least three seconds ..."

 
 
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 4:54:47 PM
Warpig , you 're not wrong but I was also right and you really should check better .
The +9 , -3gs are what the FBW offers in normal flight . As in any aircraft , the pilot can ask for more in case of emergency , everybody knows that Warpig .
Instead to try to Google every web site around , just trust the Dassault datas , they built the aircraft ...
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       4/29/2009 5:20:32 PM

Warpig , you 're not wrong but I was also right and you really should check better .

The +9 , -3gs are what the FBW offers in normal flight . As in any aircraft , the pilot can ask for more in case of emergency , everybody knows that Warpig .

Instead to try to Google every web site around , just trust the Dassault datas , they built the aircraft ...

Cheers .
you keep on referring to FBW as a pilot limitation.

it's not a FBW limit, thats designed to deal with over correction issues etc...  the issue of excessive G's are monitored by Frame Stress alerts - they are separate.

you cannot go into sustained persistent overstress as the platform will eventually go structurally catastrophic.  it does not degrade gracefully - hence why the FS alert exists so as to make sure that aircraft stay well within the boundary of tolerance and safety.

as I said before, there are a number of G suits where the pilot can stay alert and functional to 9.5g - but go beyond that and the plane is a meat truck because the pilot is just inanimate luggage until it comes back to tolerable limits again. 
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 5:54:34 PM
Warpig :
""the M2000-5 is limited to a pedestrian +9/-3 Gs.""
 
This is not pedestrian as you like to call it . 80% of the actual fighters have to same safety margins , some only 7.5g  like the Hornet .
The M2000 can indeed pull 11gs easily is the pilot is asking for , as demonstrated in the video I posted .
 
""super-duper-special superior delta wing technology""
 
Sorry but you can 't re-invent the delta wing and you can 't make it better as you know jack sh*t about it Warpig .
Nobody knows more about the delta wing (and canards) than Dassault and by a wide margin . Many Nations tried the delta wing design with more or less results . The USAF and the NASA tried many kinds of delta wing designs , even some very weird ones but they did not get it right , it is as simple as that you want it or not . The concept of "swing wings" associated with powerfull engines as always been the motto in the US aircraft industry until the F-22 with its so-called clipped delta shape (or whatever it is called) .
The M2000 is still the benchmark in dogfight while not having the best thrust to weight ratio , it is about aerodynamics .
Then , Dassault invented the inverted delta wing and found out that when coupled with canards (put at the right place unlike Typhoon) , the drag could not only been reduced but the air vortexes responsible for the drag could also be used as lifts .
It why the Rafale ~while being a delta wing fighter~ can turn tighter and faster than most aircrafts while keeping a very good airspeed  , which is not the case for the Mig-29 , SU-27 , F-15 , etc ...
 
The Typhoon 's design is wrong because while the wing is indeed an inverted delta wing (thank you Dassault) , the canards do not help in the whole flight enveloppe . They are here to help short and immediate turns at high Machs as well as providing some help at low speed and that 's it . In fact , the Typhoon 's canards are not wanted for most missions and a Mirage design would have also cut the mustard . The Rafale 's design is very different because the canards do not intefere with the drag . As an exemple , when the Typhoon is pulling high Gs it' s loosing its airspeed very fast despite its powerfull engines when the Rafale does not . The vertical acceleration of Typhoon is better than Rafale but the Typhoon can 't do the "Square dance" because it hasn 't got the energy (!!!) while it has better engines . How do you explain it Warpig ???
 
Cheers .
 
 

 
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 6:02:51 PM
gf :
""as I said before, there are a number of G suits where the pilot can stay alert and functional to 9.5g - but go beyond that and the plane is a meat truck because the pilot is just inanimate luggage until it comes back to tolerable limits again. ""
 
Pffff......
Do you speak French ? If you do , check again the latest display from the Rafale here :
h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctMM4zqO9a4&hl=fr
 
Listen to the other Rafale pilot who does the talking . All the turns during the display are in between 8 and 9gs with 2 sustained 9s turns . Then , the Rafale also goes twice at 10g+ and the pilot is perfectly alright , thank you .
At 5:11 , it is an 11g turn ...
gf , stick to what you know buddy ;-)
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       4/29/2009 6:32:00 PM

gf :


""as I said before, there are a number of G suits where the pilot can stay alert and functional to 9.5g - but go beyond that and the plane is a meat truck because the pilot is just inanimate luggage until it comes back to tolerable limits again. ""


 

Pffff......

Do you speak French ? If you do , check again the latest display from the Rafale here :


h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctMM4zqO9a4&hl=fr


 

Listen to the other Rafale pilot who does the talking . All the turns during the display are in between 8 and 9gs with 2 sustained 9s turns . Then , the Rafale also goes twice at 10g+ and the pilot is perfectly alright , thank you .


At 5:11 , it is an 11g turn ...

gf , stick to what you know buddy ;-)


 

Cheers .


cut the patronising tone and make the effort to read and absorb what I have said throughout the thread.
do not resort to ignorant forum behaviour or I will have no compunction in responding in kind.

 
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 6:39:16 PM
gf :
""cut the patronising tone and make the effort to read and absorb what I have said throughout the thread.do not resort to ignorant forum behaviour or I will have no compunction in responding in kind.""
 
Roger that but you looked for it . Stop posting BS like you did in the post I corrected you gf and everything will be fine .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Phaid       4/29/2009 7:07:14 PM
Listen to the other Rafale pilot who does the talking . All the turns during the display are in between 8 and 9gs with 2 sustained 9s turns . Then , the Rafale also goes twice at 10g+ and the pilot is perfectly alright , thank you .
At 5:11 , it is an 11g turn ...
 
The turns are clearly not 11g in the video.  And what 11g turn?  The guy making the commentary doesn't say that.
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 7:55:34 PM
Phaid , you speak a fluent French but don 't BS the others , ok ?
What I said and what the Rafale pilot said stand .
 
-1) why do you type : ""The turns are clearly not 11g in the video.""
I and the pilot said that most turns were in between 8 and 9 gs , as I said in my post .
-2) ""And what 11g turn?  The guy making the commentary doesn't say that.""
And why do you think he says " allez , allez , allez !" just before the turn ?
Check what he says about the conflict in between the Roissy CdG  airport and the end area of the display : the pilot is forced to pull incredible Gs to one keep the display alive and two avoid entering the forbiden area . I said that the Rafale was pulling 11gs because I know that he has to , it might be more than 11gs but this is not the point .
Then , tell the other posters that the Rafale pilot at the mike said twice than the Rafale was pulling 10gs , thank you .
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Bluewings12       4/29/2009 8:01:38 PM
Instead to wrongly try to look down on French Fighters during dogfights , why don 't you post some good videos of aircrafts pulling tricks ? I am talking to everybody ...
Do you want me to post some more ?
 
Cheers .
 
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Phaid       4/29/2009 8:12:12 PM
Check what he says about the conflict in between the Roissy CdG  airport and the end area of the display : the pilot is forced to pull incredible Gs to one keep the display alive and two avoid entering the forbiden area . I said that the Rafale was pulling 11gs because I know that he has to , it might be more than 11gs but this is not the point .

In other words, the pilot never said that and you just made it up.  Nothing new here, and nothing to see as usual.  
 
"Stick with what you know, buddy."  Pathetic.
 
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