Did you know that missile manufacturers seem to keep the blast radius of their product secret as in such data does not get published / is not available open source?

 

If I had the data I would be able to redo the calculation, with the new data.

So until I get to see extra data, I'll stick to it all depends.

 

 

Sentinel and Arty made some good points and they also obviously agree that the M2000 manoeuver can not be done easily , pulling this trick is not for every fighter .

Of course , the thread is about manoeuvrability . The IR and dogfighting missiles can take care of a hard manoeuvring M2000 if they can 't be jammed , no doubt . The  M2000 will end up as a fireball in the sky and make few holes in the ground , but this is not point of the thread .

Let 's just say it is a cannon only story , ok ?

 

In all accounts , the fighter following the Mirage will be put off and will wander how to comeback to the fight in a decent (?) position . The Mirage did an excellent dogfight trick .

Please post some nice other tricks ;-)

 

Ispose :

""You have to Understand that in France G's are cumulative so if you do a 3 G manuever followed by a 6 G manuever then Dassualt puts out a brochure claiming 9 G manuevers...quite simple actually.

However they don't count negative G manuevers

To be honest , I ' ve never seen the Rafale doing such dive nose first and when I check the negative Gs performance on paper , they both have (M2000 and Rafale) the same rating from Dassault .

So , I called my friend back and asked him if he could loose a Rafale with the trick , he answered me in a "Normand" way : Maybe yes , maybe not ... . He then explained to me that the Rafale roll rate was faster (we know that) and it could probably compensate the M2000 's dive by making an inverted roll but the Rafale would have to slow down because when the M2000 is diving it can loose as much as 150 knots and it is why it can turn such tight 11g turn right after the dive , the Rafale ' s pilot would have to keep an eye on the M2000 right after the fast inverted roll , then make a 11g dive turn to try to follow the Mirage which is not easy to do when you you are flying faster than the aircraft you are chasing . 

At that point , I did not know what to say on the phone (the Rafale was loosing !!!) .

Fortunatly for my Ego , my friend told me : "don 't worry Fred , the Rafale will make its turn and end up flying slowly than the Mirage but its better acceleration will allow it to close in at the first turn or vertical pass , from there on the -5 is in the sh*t" .

 

Hehe , I knew it ;-) 

 

Cheers .

 

 

I flat out do not believe M2000-5 pilots are taught to pull 11Gs ever.  Some aircraft can not provide more Gs than their electronic flight control system will allow, e.g., the F-16 is limited to 9Gs by the FCS, regardless of how big an input is demanded by the pilot on the stick.  Many aircraft flat out are not designed to be able to ever provide that many Gs to begin with (the MiG-25/31 family flat out can never pull more than abut 5Gs, period),  Some jets can give you that many Gs if the pilot commands it, e.g., the F-15 will try to give you a certain amount of G per inch of stick movement, I think it's something like 1G for every one-half inch, and so the more you pull the more you are commanding the aircraft to do, and if you're in the right part of your flight envelope you can develop beyond 9Gs.  Few fighters at all are actually capable of delivering as many as 9G, and even then it is usually only where you are at your highest q (dynamic pressure), like around M0.95 and down on the deck.  Many aircraft considered quite manueverable, like the F-18 and the Su-27, for example, are not 9G-capable aircraft.  I admit I do not know the specifics of the M2000 FCS, and so maybe it is physically possible to actually command more than 7.5, 8, 8.5, maybe even 9G, but frankly I doubt it.  However, even if it is physically possible, I think it's extremely likely that it is placarded at no more than 9G for flight safety reasons, and intentionally over-G'ing the airframe in peacetime, even during air combat manuevering training, is undoubtedly a career-threatening move (and at a minimum sure to draw some disciplinary action).  The F-15 has a maximum G indicator in the tail section by the stabilator actuators that registers the peak G put on the airframe.  I have heard that an Israeli pilot once put 12Gs (peak, and undoubtedly only for a very brief time) on his jet while avoiding a Syrian SAM.  The aircraft held together and the pilot made it back to base, but he bent the airplane and it was out of service and had to be repaired.  It might be possible to pull 11Gs under a specific set of conditions, but I do not believe that 11G manuevers are practiced nor considered acceptable in anything other than an actual combat situation.

 

thats not to say that aircraft can't do it under limited proscribed conditions (eg wartime) - but regularly?  I have a doubt.

 

And of course, all that is assuming the pilot manages to stay conscious and not just end up as a lawn dart.

which does beg the question, because there aren't too my suits in service that can keep the pilot from being non compis mentis after 9.5g

I could be wrong, but I thought the only ones that were able to keep the pilots alert and functional at 9.5 were UK, US and Sweden 

Well you are faulty GF0012

It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it

Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...

Just google 11 g mirage 2000

Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...

 

Well you are faulty GF0012

It is known M2000 is probably the only fighter (whith Rafale) which can do 11 g within structural limit (and more than the standard FBW limit of 270 ° role rate) by overriding the 9 g limit of FBW if pilot require it

Structural limit is an amazing 12g but of course with limited fuel remaining ...

Just google 11 g mirage 2000

Now I don't know if it done often since it is quite dangerous...

 

Delta wing has advantage to be more robust than conventional wings

Now, I can not confirm for the manoeuver BW think about but I think it is credible.

Put a 250lb appendage on the airframe at 11gs it becomes 2750lb (that is about the weight of a pylon and an empty fuel tank or most of a ECM pod). One can imagine the effect that would have upon the balance and controlability (recoverability). That means 11gs is a stunt except in as an absolute desperation manuver (one the pilot likely won't live through since he has already screwed up to get there).

 

Simply put, an aircraft in air to air combat mode & isn't able to sustain an 11g turn even if the pilot could, which he can't.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky

I believe Randy Cunningham in Vietnam put 12Gs on his F-4J trying to evade a MiG-17.  He survived, of course, and got back to the carrier, but the main spar of the F-4 was cracked and the aircraft didn't fly again that cruise--it had to be virtually rebuilt.  It should be noted that Cunningham had dropped his tanks by that time and was flying more or less clean, with only Sidewinder pylons left on the wings.

 

So yes, it's entirely possible that a Mirage 2000 or a Rafale could take 11Gs in a turn, but it would damage the aircraft.  Like Rocky said, it's a Last Best Move when everything else has failed and the MiG on your butt is getting ready to ventilate it.  I think Bluewings is correct that this would be a defense against a guns pass, but even then, the bad guy hopefully doesn't take it into the vertical and drop back down onto the Mirage's six.  He would have a heck of a time trying to reacquire though, so it's better than nothing.

 

No question it's an impressive manuever. 

I did not know that I was going to start such a discussion . Since I posted the video , I feel "oblige" to correct some posters ~including FrenchStratege~ . The M2000 's FBW seems to have 4 settings :

#1) 5G with heavy load (5.5g ultimate)

#2) 7g with supersonic wing fuel tanks and A2A missiles (7.5g ultimate)

#3) 9g with central fuel tank and A2A missiles (11g ultimate)

#4) 11g with A2A missiles only if asked by the pilot (13.5g ultimate) 

The different settings are chosen by the onboard computer who knows what the aircraft load is , obviously .

Since the Mirage serie exists (more than 40 years) , Dassault did not loose a single aircraft because of a FBW problem and I am telling the truth .

A clean M2000 (or with A2A missiles) has no problem to pull 11gs during a display ... Btw , the FBW allow a negative 3g , 4g ultimate (to protect the pilot 's brain) .

French aircrafts are not the only ones to pull 10gs or more , far from it . It is why I am surprised to see so many non-believers !?

 

Cheers .